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  1. #21
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    Well, some people just keep reminding me that you just can't fix stupid..


    6 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profidia View Post
    Ok so I see just as I figured the cowboy hat crowd is annoyed at my pointing out the obvious.
    Can any of you county fair folks point out to me which of these trainers owns any of the horses in his barn? or which of these horses are owned by the guy training him/her?
    http://tra-online.com/leaders.html
    How often do Owner/Trainers get to the top of the standings?
    This is the same mistake a lot of horse people in other disciplines make - assuming that "being at the top of the standings" is the end-all be-all of good horsemanship. How many times have top trainers been found to be up to no good? Who was that top reining trainer who now has abuse charges pending? What about top H/J people who use methods detrimental to the horses to stay at the top of the standings (lunging to death, drugs, etc).

    Just because a person has a small stable or trains for himself, does not mean they must be a poor horseman. Just because a person has won a shitload of money does not mean they are a good horseman. Maybe they know their business, know how to patch up horses, or have good connections to get good horses into their stable. Conversely, smaller trainers who have no hope in hell of ever being on "top" may not even WANT to be on top. Perhaps they like their little stable and not having to answer to other people.

    Topping the trainer lists just means they won the most money.

    One of the owner/trainers over at Charles Town is one of the only people I'd buy a horse directly from the track from. He's honest about them, they're always very well cared for, he's not into gimmicks or drugs, and he'd probably be a lot higher in the standings if he was. One of the best horsemen I know. For sure I'd trust his word about his horses way more than, say, Todd Pletcher. And several of the worst horsemen I know over there train for other people (with bigger stables, and consequently higher in the earnings). But I wouldn't touch one of their duct-taped-together horses with a ten foot pole (unfortunate since they're also quick to send horses off with the meat guy too).

    yeah, there's a lot of piss poor horsemanship at low end tracks. But the dividing line between good and bad has nothing to do with who owns the horses, or whether the trainer works for himself. I would tend to think that if the trainer also owns the horse in question, he has more of a stake in the horse staying healthy and competitive than he does if he doesn't own the horse.

    Dunno why I'm even rambling on except I got no sleep last night.
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.


    13 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    Kona Gold, Blind Luck, Dancing Guy come to mind off the top of my head.
    I tend to think more of Gussie Mae, Zippy Chippy, Ricks Natural Star and the colorful characters that accompanied them. Like to keep score?
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Los Angeles
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    Kona Gold, Blind Luck, Dancing Guy come to mind off the top of my head.
    King Glorious got Hollendorfer started and since then he owns a piece of almost everything. He also trains at Golden Gate where those awful mechanical walkers are located.

    Oh the humanity!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profidia View Post
    I tend to think more of Gussie Mae, Zippy Chippy, Ricks Natural Star and the colorful characters that accompanied them. Like to keep score?
    Yeah like there has never been unrealistic owners who don't train the horse...



  6. #26
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    Apr. 23, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    This is the same mistake a lot of horse people in other disciplines make - assuming that "being at the top of the standings" is the end-all be-all of good horsemanship. How many times have top trainers been found to be up to no good? Who was that top reining trainer who now has abuse charges pending? What about top H/J people who use methods detrimental to the horses to stay at the top of the standings (lunging to death, drugs, etc).

    Just because a person has a small stable or trains for himself, does not mean they must be a poor horseman. Just because a person has won a shitload of money does not mean they are a good horseman. Maybe they know their business, know how to patch up horses, or have good connections to get good horses into their stable. Conversely, smaller trainers who have no hope in hell of ever being on "top" may not even WANT to be on top. Perhaps they like their little stable and not having to answer to other people.

    Topping the trainer lists just means they won the most money.

    One of the owner/trainers over at Charles Town is one of the only people I'd buy a horse directly from the track from. He's honest about them, they're always very well cared for, he's not into gimmicks or drugs, and he'd probably be a lot higher in the standings if he was. One of the best horsemen I know. For sure I'd trust his word about his horses way more than, say, Todd Pletcher. And several of the worst horsemen I know over there train for other people (with bigger stables, and consequently higher in the earnings). But I wouldn't touch one of their duct-taped-together horses with a ten foot pole (unfortunate since they're also quick to send horses off with the meat guy too).

    yeah, there's a lot of piss poor horsemanship at low end tracks. But the dividing line between good and bad has nothing to do with who owns the horses, or whether the trainer works for himself. I would tend to think that if the trainer also owns the horse in question, he has more of a stake in the horse staying healthy and competitive than he does if he doesn't own the horse.

    Dunno why I'm even rambling on except I got no sleep last night.
    Good post. The person is the most important part of the equation not whether they own and train or work at a track with mechanical walkers or some other arbitrary standard Profidia can use to look down on them.

    Seriously its been my experience that a lot of people never dig deeper than the press clippings or look past the glitter when it comes to BNTs. The guy just scraping along might be the best horseman in the shedrow even if he doesn't make it into Bloodhorse or on TVG.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Mar. 8, 2004
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    I would be willing to bet that Profidia has never set foot on a track outside of Grantville so she has Penn colored glasses on.


    10 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Aug. 26, 2012
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    MO
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    I hope the OP got her answer by reading the posts from the people who have obviously spent time on the backside, and have a true understanding of racing.

    The hater typifies a person who posts only to start a controversy and has no actual knowledge of the subject being discussed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Profidia View Post
    I tend to think more of Gussie Mae, Zippy Chippy, Ricks Natural Star and the colorful characters that accompanied them. Like to keep score?
    Keep score with what? The fact that you prefer digging to find dirt, which is where you wallow, and I prefer finding stories like Dancing Guy, raced by my wonderful friend Newcomb Green, who claimed him for $25,000 and made...oh gosh, nearly a million, I think. He had 2 horses at the time, and he was nearly 80 years old. Yes, you go wallow in the dirt, its obviously a place you feel at home.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Jan. 23, 2004
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    That is a crazy statement but shows somebody with a lack of knowledge. I grew up in the racing industry and still spend quite a bit of time working behind the scenes on the track. I have a ton of respect for these small racing stables where the trainer is the owner or even the barns where the trainer only has a few horses in their care. They often know every little detail about every horse in their care because they are doing the feeding, grooming, hotwalking, training and know all the little quirks about the horses. They know them inside out and out and can tell you what makes them tick. They know if they have had injuries and what type of vet care the horses are getting. These are the types of trainers that I enjoy talking to because the horses aren't just "horses" they are family members.

    One of my favorite people that I met at the track this year was this really great guy who bred the horses that he raced and he was so dedicated to knowing where they ended up when they were done racing that he didn't want to sell them, he wanted to find them a lease situation. He wanted to know where they were and that they could always come back to him. He knew every single thing about that horses life and he felt like he owed it to them to ensure a good future as they had all done well for him. Those are the people that make it worth doing what we do (helping the trainers find homes for their horses after their careers are over).


    9 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Jun. 6, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    This is the same mistake a lot of horse people in other disciplines make - assuming that "being at the top of the standings" is the end-all be-all of good horsemanship. How many times have top trainers been found to be up to no good? Who was that top reining trainer who now has abuse charges pending? What about top H/J people who use methods detrimental to the horses to stay at the top of the standings (lunging to death, drugs, etc).
    Never said that at all. Matter of fact I'd agree with you on all of that except that living in the capitalist world that we do the only way to measure success in a business is by money made.


    Topping the trainer lists just means they won the most money.
    Exactly. and in this or any other business money isn't everything it's the only thing. It determines who goes to the breeding shed, who gets year end accolades, it can even win approval with a mother in law.

    yeah, there's a lot of piss poor horsemanship at low end tracks.
    Amen
    But the dividing line between good and bad has nothing to do with who owns the horses, or whether the trainer works for himself. I would tend to think that if the trainer also owns the horse in question, he has more of a stake in the horse staying healthy and competitive than he does if he doesn't own the horse.
    In some cases perhaps, in other cases it's somebody who is one of 3 things:
    1) A bum who goes from place to place one step ahead of a lynch mob in every town. They pay nobody never worked a day in their lives and are expert con artists who could sell ice to an eskimo. These people usually do everything as part of some kind of hustle or "deal" making the environment difficult for honest people to do business in.
    2) A wealthy dillettante who likes to go out there and play at what other people do for a living. Very often times they started out as owners but were such meddling PITA's that very quickly they found they needed to train their own if they wanted to stay in the game as they soon exhaust the supply of starving trainers willing to put up with them.
    3) One who was too dumb to pass their trainers test. In many locales Owner/Trainers aren't required to take any kind of test. All they need do is acquire a horse somehow and voila they're now a trainer. This is an insult to those who paid their dues and earned their place in the sport. Is nothing illegal about it but certainly isn't worthy of anyone's respect.
    Dunno why I'm even rambling on except I got no sleep last night.
    To amuse yourself like everybody else. Hope tonight is better for you
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Jan. 7, 2001
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    Kenny McPeek in KY (and Fla and NY) owns many of the horses in his care. If the ownership name is "Magdelena racing" it's McPeek. Many of Jim Bond and Gary Contessa's horses are also owned by the trainer. (Song Hill TB's is Bond's outfit and Gary's run in his wife's name.) I think Charlie Whittingham owned a part of Sunday Silence too. Shug McGaughey breeds a few every year. (One just won a stake in KY last month for Alex Clarkson.) The Asmussen family owns and breeds many of the horses running in their far flung operation.
    There are several very good owner/trainers on the NYRA circuit, many of whom would do quite well if they ever got their hands on "nicer" horse. Some could be vying near the top if they shifted their focus to less challenging circuits.
    No most of the owner/trainers are never going to lead the standings, usually because they are often doing it as a sideline to a full time job elsewhere or because they are dealing with moderately bred homebred stock. That said, it doesn't make them poor horsemen. It's tougher to make a living as an owner trainer at the biggest venues, but it can be done. Historically, the Madden outfit which just dominated the biggest circuits between the 1890's and the 1920's was a breeding/training/racing outfit. It's harder in today's corporate environment.
    F O.B
    Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
    Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


    5 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    Nov. 13, 2006
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    I just noticed that profida quotes michael gill in his/her siggy. 'Nuff said.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
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    Jul. 2, 1999
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    Ben's Cat (2012 record 9 starts 5-1-0, earnings of $557,060)

    Bred by K. T. Leatherbury Associates Inc.
    Trained by King T. Leatherbury
    Owned by The Jim Stable (King T. Leatherbury )


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  15. #35
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    Feb. 22, 2009
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    I have bought horses from quite a few trainers over the years that own their own horses. The most recent one would be Tim Ice. Who has to be one of the trainers who is most concerned with where the horses he owns and the ones from people he trains for end up. But oh wait, he owns his own horses that he trains and races, guess you should just ignore his Belmont win with Summer Bird


    4 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurierace View Post
    I would be willing to bet that Profidia has never set foot on a track outside of Grantville so she has Penn colored glasses on.
    It would be interesting to see the stats for his/her racing, wouldn't it? I find that the more negative and outspoken the person, generally the less they've done and the less they know. Oh well, back to the barn, lunch break is over.

    Sheila
    Last edited by Chestnut Run; Dec. 6, 2012 at 02:12 PM. Reason: apparently, I can't spell today
    Sheila Zeltt
    Chestnut Run Stable & Zeltt Racing Stable
    www.Zeltt.com
    Standing "Tiz Brian" at Stud, 16.1 h bay TB by Tiznow


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  17. #37
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    I guess another questionable owner/trainer out there ...

    A few years ago trainer Jonathan Sheppard's Just as Well won the Grade 3, $200,000 Arlington Handicap. Owned/trained by Sheppard.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimmerglass View Post
    I guess another questionable owner/trainer out there ...

    A few years ago trainer Jonathan Sheppard's Just as Well won the Grade 3, $200,000 Arlington Handicap. Owned/trained by Sheppard.
    Figured by now somebody would have named Burton K Sipp. Another owner/trainer stalwart

    Hey Glimmer,
    I'll save you some work pulling numerous examples out of your hat.
    Find me a top tier track that has such an overwhelming preponderance of owners and trainers being the same individual in every race on the card.

    I'll wager that it wont compare to any small time gyp haven you care to name.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    Keep score with what? The fact that you prefer digging to find dirt, which is where you wallow, and I prefer finding stories like Dancing Guy, raced by my wonderful friend Newcomb Green, who claimed him for $25,000 and made...oh gosh, nearly a million, I think. He had 2 horses at the time, and he was nearly 80 years old. Yes, you go wallow in the dirt, its obviously a place you feel at home.
    Ok, you're absolutely right. You've convinced me. Perhaps maybe an Eclipse award should be given to Dr Livingston. Watch and enjoy. He was certainly a credit to the sport.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMidvtqhs-8
    I especially like the ball cap with a suit in the paddock. Nice classy touch.
    "I am going to have horse racing as my business, and my hobby will be punishing each and every one of you pinheads, so happy blogging you have my attention"
    Michael Gill-2010


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #40
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    You must just enjoy being nasty and stupid. No one would do it as good as you do without getting a thrill out of it.

    So now you say if someone wears a ballcap with a suit in the paddock they arent classy?

    http://racinghallblog.wordpress.com/...than-sheppard/

    We know the only one here who is not only not classy, but sadly ignorant.


    3 members found this post helpful.

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