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  1. #101
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    Everyone, hold on a tic...how does anyone know who the poster really is??
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.


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  2. #102
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    Okay, just saying, if the story behind the OP is the truth, there have been 50 foals over the years and this filly is the first one to be unhandled with eye problems, why is everyone so uptight about the percentages?? (I can just see the dislikes going on now!) If you've been around bunches of horses, you know there is the odd duck who just won't play the game right. No matter how you try, there just isn't a bond there, the horse plain can't do it for some reason. Maybe it is her eyes but I've had a couple of blind ones and they seemed to want to be with me, depend on me. But, just like in a normally sighted horse, there are that couple of percents who just don't care for human contact.

    I know of a lot of ranches who leave their colts alone for quite a long time before bringing them in for handling. This filly has eye problems and it would have been better to put her in a small corral and work with her but the way things work out.

    Before putting her down, I'd still try the small corral and just hanging around her, pushing her away. At least try to get through to her so you can doctor the eyes.
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.


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  3. #103
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    The filly was neglected and her medical issues untreated. The pain from uveitis is excrutiating and treatment dilates the pupil so scar tissue formed during a bout (not spelling of 'bout') won't close the pupil but freeze the pupil open for as much sight preservation as possible. The other part of the treatment is pain management and maybe even nerve block during the acute painful part of the bout. The bouts happen frequently, and constantly and never go away. Its a virus like herpes. I could be wrong but I think it can also be spread to other horses, so keeping the horse in a herd situation is just awe inspiring to start with. Also, why the horse wasn't brought in and contained for frequent treatment and handling is a head shaker to me. The horse should also be given eye protection, because the sun just plain hurts. The ignorance and neglect of this animal is a jaw dropper. The fact that this breeder has tried to sell the animal is not surprising, given the decisions she's made about it during its life. I for one am pretty certain that is the horse the OP is talking about in this thread and on the sale ads. She took off once outed, too. Awful, awful management - or lack of it. Just put the horse down quietly, why try to write about it on a board?? And why would seeing the unhandled blind, filly in pain help any in judging the OP's neglect of her well being? Some people.
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/


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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    Okay, just saying, if the story behind the OP is the truth, there have been 50 foals over the years and this filly is the first one to be unhandled with eye problems, why is everyone so uptight about the percentages??
    I don't think most people are "uptight about the percentages", but about the fact that this allegedly experienced breeder, when confronted with a foal/yearling that was difficult to handle and developed a painful, recurring and potentially blindness-inducing health condition, offered the horse no treatment at all.

    There was another poster who said some people just throw the youngstock on pasture and when they need to worm or vet, run it into a chute. Perfectly fine - but OP had no chute, had no way to contain this filly, chose not to either vet her or put her down, just let her suffer repeated bouts of uveitis until the horse was apparently blinded. That's irresponsible breeding.


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  5. #105
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    double post



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ambitious Kate View Post
    Its a virus like herpes. I could be wrong but I think it can also be spread to other horses, so keeping the horse in a herd situation is just awe inspiring to start with.
    The cause of UV isn't fully understood but it's believed to be caused by the horse's immune system attacking the eye. From the Merk Veterinary Manual:

    "Equine recurrent uveitis is an immune-mediated disease with many potential initiating causes. The common denominator is damage to the uveal tract, which may be initiated by trauma (both penetrating and blunt) or systemic disease. Specific conditions or agents implicated in the pathogenesis include leptospirosis, brucellosis, strangles ( Streptococcus equi infection), onchocerciasis, equine influenza, tooth root abscess, and hoof abscess. The most widely investigated of these are the Leptospira spp , in particular L interrogans serovar pomona , although other serogroups have been implicated. As active uveitis often does not occur for months, or even years, after the systemic disease, the exact relationship between leptospirosis and equine recurrent uveitis remains obscure. Although onchocerciasis is less common due to the routine use of ivermectin, equine recurrent uveitis is thought to be stimulated by dead or dying microfilaria that have aberrantly migrated to the eye. Therefore, active episodes of uveitis can be seen following normal worming.
    Even though the immunologic basis for the recurrent nature of uveitis has been extensively studied, detailed understanding of the factors involved remains elusive. Sequestration of organisms, antigen, or antibody-antigen complexes within the anterior uvea has been advanced as an explanation for the chronicity of the ocular inflammation long after the initiating cause has resolved. Additionally, T lymphocytes have been found to be the predominant inflammatory cell type in clinical cases; their presence suggests a cytokine-driven, immune-mediated inflammatory response. The mechanisms by which this response is activated (or deactivated) remain unknown."

    http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/30300.htm

    We've had several horses with UV boarded where I'm at over the last 15 years, all under vet care (each had a history of UV before coming on the property). One horse is a long-term resident, been at the barn for 10 years. Never, ever have any of the vets charged with their treatment implied that the condition is contagious nor have any of the horses pastured with the ones that had flare-ups ever had any eye problems. The only concerns ever expressed by the vets regarding turnout were making sure they were in the company of other horses who would not pick on them, and of course making sure they had proper eye protection during daytime hours and treating flare-ups in a prompt and timely manner to mitigate damage. Quarantine, during flare-ups or otherwise, was never a concern.

    As for the rest, not going to argue that. A lot more could have been done for the filly, whether better/more frequent handling and proactive treatment would have helped we won't know because unfortunately that ship has sailed and it's a darn shame. The filly at least could have been given a shot but she wasn't and that's irresponsible in my book.


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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    I don't think most people are "uptight about the percentages", but about the fact that this allegedly experienced breeder, when confronted with a foal/yearling that was difficult to handle and developed a painful, recurring and potentially blindness-inducing health condition, offered the horse no treatment at all.

    There was another poster who said some people just throw the youngstock on pasture and when they need to worm or vet, run it into a chute. Perfectly fine - but OP had no chute, had no way to contain this filly, chose not to either vet her or put her down, just let her suffer repeated bouts of uveitis until the horse was apparently blinded. That's irresponsible breeding.
    a chute?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    a chute?
    40 years ago we had a encephalitis scare.
    The health department sent vets to all ranches to vaccinate all horses.
    We went with our vet to many of them, to help handle the horses and record keeping for him.
    Many had broodmare bands of unhandled mares, never touched, neither was their young stock.
    We ran them thru the cattle facilities, as they did when they needed to treat one.
    We did get them all vaccinated by crowding them in the narrow snake alley to the working chute and reaching over the top and no horse was hurt in the process.
    Where there was no facilities like that, we would crowd them behind a gate in the alley, but that was harder on all, hard for the vet to get to them as easily as thru the chutes.

    The BLM pens are built like that, with alleys, narrower snake alleys to chutes, some have tilt tables to trim hooves in them.

    Restraining feral/wild animals can be done well, but of course is not ideal, when a bit of handling would make all that wild stuff unnecessary.

    Practically all ranches around here today handle their foals at least at weaning or right after, even the odd crazy one gets handled.

    We really don't know what went on here, some on this story is not making much sense, much less that it was posted here for advice how to euthanize.


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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by goneriding24 View Post
    Before putting her down, I'd still try the small corral and just hanging around her, pushing her away. At least try to get through to her so you can doctor the eyes.
    I haven't read through the pages of drama.

    Why keep this horse alive if it's blind? It's young and unbroke. Even trained, it will still be a blind horse. There are plenty of 15+ year old horses, who have done the miles to earn a retirement, looking for pasture homes. Why add this horse to the list of those needing pasture puff home?

    Sure she might have a long & happy life eating grass. Or she'll be flighty and agitated for the rest of her life because she's never really sure what's around her. Sometimes some culling needs to occur. However the situation evolved, I commend the OP for being able to make the decision to cut her losses and put the horse down. If more breeders were able to make this decision, they might still be in business.


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    However the situation evolved, I commend the OP for being able to make the decision to cut her losses and put the horse down. If more breeders were able to make this decision, they might still be in business.
    You commend a breeder for allowing a horse to become blinded by neglect? That's interesting...

    I don't have a problem with the OP putting the horse down. In fact, I think that's probably for the best.

    I don't even have a problem with the OP saying that the horse is untrainable. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't, but I'm not sure it matters at this point.

    What I have a problem with is the OP, a breeder, bringing a foal into this world, watching it develop an excruciatingly painful eye condition, and just shrugging her shoulders about it for three years. The horse is blind because the OP is neglectful. Withholding medical care until the horse is blind is 100% unacceptable.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    40 years ago we had a encephalitis scare.
    The health department sent vets to all ranches to vaccinate all horses.
    We went with our vet to many of them, to help handle the horses and record keeping for him.
    Many had broodmare bands of unhandled mares, never touched, neither was their young stock.
    We ran them thru the cattle facilities, as they did when they needed to treat one.
    We did get them all vaccinated by crowding them in the narrow snake alley to the working chute and reaching over the top and no horse was hurt in the process.
    Where there was no facilities like that, we would crowd them behind a gate in the alley, but that was harder on all, hard for the vet to get to them as easily as thru the chutes.

    The BLM pens are built like that, with alleys, narrower snake alleys to chutes, some have tilt tables to trim hooves in them.

    Restraining feral/wild animals can be done well, but of course is not ideal, when a bit of handling would make all that wild stuff unnecessary.

    Practically all ranches around here today handle their foals at least at weaning or right after, even the odd crazy one gets handled.

    We really don't know what went on here, some on this story is not making much sense, much less that it was posted here for advice how to euthanize.
    Well, I live out East.
    I don't see many for cattle, I don't think the average horse owner has easy access to one.
    But then, I forgot, this is COTH after all.
    Thou shall have every conceivable amenity on your farm (even if it's not yours) at any time, in prime condition, of the best possible quality.

    And should something go wrong, well, slash your wrists, because you are not worthy of owning horses.

    If you only ever have one foal, you have no points to compare, plus more time to deal with problems.

    If one has more than one horse, the problem horse can get overlooked, there are enough others around to deal with.

    And heaven forbid, you should have the one in a million foal that just isn't right. You must immediately cease all breeding operations....

    I am sure we did not get the whole story.
    It's a bit difficult sometimes to summarize a three year story into a few paragraphs, especially when you don't want to give too much away (wise choice on COTH, it seems)

    Did the OP leave a lot of her mistakes out? Pretty sure about it.

    But does that mean she could have fixed the filly if she had been on top of things?
    Who knows! In animals and humans alike there are those individuals that are just not right, for new particular reason.

    At this point, PTS is the best option for the filly.
    Now, we can discuss the options of that.
    But seriously, suggesting the OP must have a chute...that is a bit over the top.

    Should the OP really be that lousy of a horse keeper, I hope she fixes the problems.
    but then again, nobody can muster up to the COTH expectation.
    Unless you can train Dobbins to poop butterflies, don't admit you are having training issues here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  12. #112
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    Stop owning horses. Seriously, THREE YEARS and you can't get her handleable? My goodness, did she ever get her feet done even? SMH.


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    You commend a breeder for allowing a horse to become blinded by neglect? That's interesting...
    Not what I said. I commended the OP for looking at the situation she currently has: a blind/nearly blind horse, that is wild/untrained/untrainable with few prospects and deciding that the situation is best solved by putting the horse down. As opposed to putting hundreds (or thousands) of dollars into a horse that realistically has a career as a pasture puff ahead of it.

    ETA: I don't think this horse should be a pasture puff. Apparently I didn't say that as clear as I thought. A blind pasture puff for 20+ is a huge waste.
    Last edited by red mares; Dec. 3, 2012 at 12:44 PM.


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    Not what I said. I commended the OP for looking at the situation she currently has: a blind/nearly blind horse, that is wild/untrained/untrainable with few prospects and deciding that the situation is best solved by putting the horse down. As opposed to putting hundreds (or thousands) of dollars into a horse that realistically has a career as a pasture puff ahead of it.
    So you're saying you'd rather see this essentially feral filly, after THREE YEARS of being in pain, struggle through treatment that may or may not be successful (don't know anything about uveitis, just repeating what I've read on here) become a pasture puff for life? Especially when it doesn't even sound like she would have that comfortable a life as a pasture puff? I might have agreed with you if OP had asked this question three years ago, and put the time and effort into training the filly and providing her with medical care, but as it stands, I have to agree with SNL + others....euthanasia may be the best option at this point.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey


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  15. #115
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    I said I was done, but reading I realize that it does seem like this filly has gone recently untreated for a long time. As a foal she had no issues. Half way through her yearling year she had one bout of what the vet felt was uveitis, lasted about 2 days one eye. Since then (18 months) she's had two other bouts. One with one eye, one with both eyes. Both times cleared up within a few days. This last time the filly was fine on Thursday evening. I was in the field scratching her all over. The following day I noticed both eyes were effected and she appeared to not be able to see. This has not been something that the filly has had to deal with every day of her life. When she has her episodes I do give her feed through banamine or bute, depending on what I have on hand. This time it was banamine. So I'm trying to help manage her pain. I will take ownership for not putting as much time into her as I should have or could have, but life has made it so that I just wasn't able to. I have paid professionals to come help me with her. She's not a danger, but I say she is feral because she truly does not want to join up. She is a healthy, happy filly other then the eyes. I just feel people think this filly has been in excrutiating pain her whole life and that is not the case.


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  16. #116
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    I live in South Dakota, and our large animal vets are the ones that also treat rodeo broncs, unhandled large herds, etc.

    I own a rescue that has had multiple blind horses; and have a lot of experience with uveitis and other issues.

    I'm also the one that takes in the "crazy" horses and have quite a bit of experience rehabbing and turning them around. We're talking not just basically feral, but distrustful to the point of being dangerous and discussing euthanasia if they didn't come around.

    So, that said, here's what I don't understand:

    1. Any horse can be "run into" a smaller space to be worked with. I understand that a stall is probably not the best environment - the last truly wild horse I worked with lost even more of his sanity while kept in a stall. But a decent pen can work. Get some 6' tall corral panels, secure them with t-posts on the outside, and run her into that. Then ... once in the pen ... run her into a stock trailer.

    Then you have a choice: euthanise, or take to someone experienced with this kind of horse.

    2. Our vets would ONLY as a last resort ever recommend shooting in pasture. Even then, they'd recommend tranq darting the horse, and THEN euthanizing via bullet or chemicals. It's the rare horse that can't be run into a trailer and worked with from there. If in the trailer, any vet with experience with livestock (which is what the original poster sounds like - since they are "ranch men" etc) should be able to use a pole to tranq enough to get close enough to sedate. halter, lead off the trailer, and drop. I've seen it done (though dropped under general anesthesia, not euthanized. We used it on the 3 year old I am now riding to get his feet done - and at that point he was completely untouchable. The fact you can touch your horse puts you well ahead of where this one was).

    3. Look into dormosedan over ace. It's designed to be fed as a tranq. It's technically designed to be put under the tongue, so is less effective when fed, but at least it's meant to be ingested rather than injected. It'll likely take much more tranq than you expect with a wild one.

    Seriously, though, blind or not (how does she see the halter then?), feral/wild or not, anyone with the slightest bit of horse sense should be able to get this horse onto a stock trailer - though it does take a couple of people and a catch pen. If she's truly blind already, training her is going to be tough, so even though there are great treatments for uveitis, there's nothing that can bring back vision, so while I'm a firm believer that blind horses can have a good life and be ridden (we ride all the blind ones in our rescue), I also know that a good argument for euthanasia can be made for this horse, so I personally would pass no judgment either way. But I do think it's ridiculous to expect a blind, wild horse to stand perfectly still in pasture while someone shoots that very small spot on their forehead that leads to instant death. To me that's just asking for trouble - the slightest jerk, movement, whatever and you now have an injured, panicked, blind, wild horse.

    And yes, if you are close enough to me, I'd be willing to come help you get her on a trailer and taken to a vet who can deal with feral horses. I do realize how hard it is to find a vet with the experience and knowledge to do so and know how blessed we are. When searching for a vet to geld the one I discussed above, I bet we called 15-20 vets before we found one willing to resort to a dart gun if needed, since he was 200+ miles away from our vets at the time.
    If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude.
    ~ Maya Angelou


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  17. #117
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    I've read through this entire thread and there are varying degrees of her pain level, how she's been handled, etc. I am going to leave that alone because I can't tell what is the truth...if she's a happy horse with an unfortunate medical condition, if she is in a field somewhere writhing in pain from no treatment because she wasn't handled and is untouchable, or if she is somewhere in between.

    halteralter98, what is the vet's/vets' opinion on what should be done with the filly? Euth or can she be kept going and have a quality of life if there is treatment? If she can be saved are you willing to take on that responsibility for life? If you are not, then I would euth. This isn't a horse I'd pass on the next person.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by halteralter98 View Post
    I can't change your minds because she is not your horse, you don't know her history and haven't walked in my shoes. I do care about this filly though, I've admitted I screwed up, and I'm trying to do what is BEST FOR HER. Not what is the easiest for me at this point.
    Well, there you go. Your horse, your mile in your shoes, no one else qualified to advise.... by definition. Why waste everyone's time, then?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by halteralter98 View Post
    I was in the field scratching her all over.
    <snip>
    I say she is feral because she truly does not want to join up.
    Did you read the pm I sent you about working with a feral - 2 YEARS of daily handling before that horse ever offered a connection to a human.


    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    so alto (or crockpot) why don't you take the filly?
    Thanks mbm but I already have my feral lifer
    Of course if you or the OP want to send this filly up - after appropriate vet care - for training, we'll absolutely work with her


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  20. #120
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    I skimmed back through some of the pages and have to say, steel your heart if you're going to put her down and just do it. You'll feel badly and wonder if there is more you could have done, yada, yada. Yep, there is always one more step for any horse but in this day and age, you pick the line to hold.

    I understand how you're conflicted and hurt over this, but, why come on here and go through this, you know we aren't cuddling types here. I'm thinking you know the answer. If she were mine, me being me, I'd try this and that first, until she was in pain and couldn't go on. I don't know that much about her eye condition so am being general here. I'm the type who wants to know everything and trying even unconventional things just to see if it works. Kind of a kill 'em or cure 'em type of person, that's me.

    But, from the tone of your posts which I've skimmed, hem her up somehow and put her down.
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.


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