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  1. #1
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    Default Now Or Never

    Considering breeding My Escudo II mare to him to increase height and produce a good all around horse with temperment and movement for hunters.

    Anyone have foals by him and what can you tell me? Mare type and outcome. Thanks!
    The rider casts his heart over the fence,
    the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

    –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart



  2. #2
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    Now or Never cannot be bred by frozen. If you have a mare in Europe, then you can do fresh. I got this direct from Celle where he stands. However, he has a number of very, very good sons, standing in a variety of countries (Germany, Holland, Russia, Denmark, UK, etc)., such as Toronto, Valentino, Uccelo, Alchimist, Vallado, Wilson, Wilton, etc. He has 4 sons who stand with him at Celle.

    He crosses spectacularly well with Belisar or Saros xx mares. His offspring usually have very good jump, great brains, lots of scope and talent. Most have modern type.
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  3. #3
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Now or Never cannot be bred by frozen. If you have a mare in Europe, then you can do fresh. I got this direct from Celle where he stands. However, he has a number of very, very good sons, standing in a variety of countries (Germany, Holland, Russia, Denmark, UK, etc)., such as Toronto, Valentino, Uccelo, Alchimist, Vallado, Wilson, Wilton, etc. He has 4 sons who stand with him at Celle.

    He crosses spectacularly well with Belisar or Saros xx mares. His offspring usually have very good jump, great brains, lots of scope and talent. Most have modern type.
    This is correct--Now or Never is not on Celle's frozen list. But check out Valentino, out of a Belisar daughter--a very high quality stallion. And a producer of quality stallions--check out his son Viscount at Celle or check on his son Van Helsing at Sprehe. Both beautiful types and with great test scores. Also Valentino made the 2012 German top stallion list for showjumper producers--he received 158 points/88% and Now or Never rec'd 155 points at 89% (also on the top 50 list)

    For me, I prefer Van Helsing. Out of a Stakkato/Accord II mother.
    Last edited by feather river; Dec. 2, 2012 at 01:38 AM. Reason: sp
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  4. #4
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    I have a mare in foal to Valentino. I really like this stallion and the frozen is good. Maiden mare and 1 dose. Good luck :0)
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by feather river View Post
    This is correct--Now or Never is not on Celle's frozen list. But check out Valentino, out of a Belisar daughter--a very high quality stallion. And a producer of quality stallions--check out his son Viscount at Celle or check on his son Van Helsing at Sprehe. Both beautiful types and with great test scores. Also Valentino made the 2012 German top stallion list for showjumper producers--he received 158 points/88% and Now or Never rec'd 155 points at 89% (also on the top 50 list)

    For me, I prefer Van Helsing. Out of a Stakkato/Accord II mother.
    I agree. Valentino's test scores alone say it all. Being very balanced with an overall of 136.89 and overall Vice Champion, dressage 121.09 (6th) and jumping of 141.47 (1st). His stats show he improves Type (130), Legs (118) and the Jump (143). He also improves the dressage a bit, or that is to say, he can influence better movement (111).

    You need to know that Belisar was a dressage horse; however, when he was paired with show jumping mares, he produced a show jumper and very good ones at that.

    And in order to really know what you are breeding you MUST study these stallions' damlines. There are some very special mares involved here and it is their influence that tells the tale of why we have these stallions in the first place.

    The nick was discovered by the great stallion producing breeder in Holland - F.J. Morssink, (whose breeding program to his Belisar and Saros mares produced the stallions: Toronto, Valentino, Wilton, Uccello, Vallado, just to name a few).

    He discovered a few things: (A) When Belisar was paired with mares from a strong jumping damline - the offspring were jumpers.
    (B) When his jumping mares were paired with the great thoroughbred stallion, Saros xx (the sire of Belisar), it also produced jumping offpsring.

    AND the great big discovery:
    (C) When the daughters from the pairings with Belisar or Saros were matched with Now or Never, 1 of 3 things happened:
    (i) Riding Horses of spectacular brains, legs, athletics, and jumping ability who went to the top of the sport, or
    (ii) A stallion who was either champion or vice champion in his SPT and went to the top of the sport, or
    (iii) A mare who later went on to either the top of the sport or who herself produced daughters at the top of sport or stallion sons, or her own daughters later went on to produce stallions (her grandsons).

    The greatness came from his mares. Specifically, Jacaranda and Rarinka, just to name 2 from his rather special herd.

    He also following traditional dutch naming (A, B, C, D, depending on the year), but in order to give deference to the value he placed on his mares, fillies of his great mares were named in rhyme to their dam. Thus, Rarinka produced Larinka. Jacaranda produced Bacaranda.

    Mr. Morssink has a relative also breeding who followed similar patterns. He had the mare Idoeschka paired her to Belisar and produced Nidoeschka. (I own Nidoeschka from Holland, which is how I got started on this massive study to begin with.)

    The Belisar daughter, Patricia was mated with Now Or Never and produced the stallion Valentino. She was never bred again as far as I can tell, maybe she died.

    It becomes a dizzying maze of breeding these specific mares - Patricia, Idoeschka, Jacaranda, Bacaranda, etc., back to Saros, to Belisar and back to Now or Never to get these top daughters and stallions.

    For example: Jacaranda was paired with Saros and produced the daughter Baranda. Baranda was mated with Now or Never which produced the stallions Alchimist and Uccello. (Baranda was also mated with Naturel and produced the stallion Governeur).

    The mare Rarinka mated with Saros produced the stallion Erato. When she was bred with Belisar, she produced a mare Larinka. Larinka was mated to Now or Never producing the stallions Toronto and Wilson.

    When Baranda's daughter, Harianda, was bred to Erato, she produced a gorgeous filly they called Erianda. She was bred back to Now or Never and produced the stallion Walerno.

    And on and on it goes. Are we dizzy yet?

    It's a very, very strong nick and you could get lost in these mares.

    I am personally breeding my Belisar mare to Wilton in the spring. She's never been bred with frozen, so it will be interesting to see if she can do it. Otherwise, I can try her own daughter. My mare's mother, Idoeschka, was never bred more than once and I have never been able to determine why although she had a busy show career, jumping to S level in Holland, so that might have been the reason.

    If your mare already contains blood from either Belisar or Saros xx, then you might want to bypass this and instead breed directly to Wilton. Wilton carries special blood too - -He is a son of Now or Never, but his mother is the special mare Anieta, who is another daughter to the spectacular mare, Rarinka, which I discussed above. So the blood is still there.

    Wilton was champion of his SPT at 134.70, dressage index of 121.24 (5th) and jumping 135.33 (1st). Wilton improves type and jump.

    If you want to capitalize on the work that Mr. Morssink did and take advantage of the special Belisar-Saros x Now or Never nick, then I strongly suggest you use one of those particular stallions - - and these are: Toronto (Belisar), Valentino (belisar), Wilson (Belisar), Alchimist (Saros xx), Uccello (Saros xx), and Vallado (Saros xx).

    Rarinka and Jacaranda are special mares and achieved the highest awards in KWPN. Other highly awarded mares were Patricia, Arieta, Bacaranda, and Idoeschka They either produced stallions; or daughters and/or granddaughters who produced stallions; or they performed at the top of the sport themselves or produced kids who performed at the top.
    Last edited by rodawn; Dec. 2, 2012 at 03:40 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodawn View Post
    Valentino's test scores alone say it all. Being very balanced with an overall of 136.89 and overall Vice Champion, dressage 121.09 (6th) and jumping of 141.47 (1st). His stats show he improves Type (130), Legs (118) and the Jump (143). He also improves the dressage a bit, or that is to say, he can influence better movement (111).

    You need to know that Belisar was a dressage horse; however, when he was paired with show jumping mares, he produced a show jumper and very good ones at that.


    The greatness came from his mares. Specifically, Jacaranda and Rarinka, just to name 2 from his rather special herd. Thus, Rarinka produced Larinka. Jacaranda produced Bacaranda.

    The Belisar daughter, Patricia was mated with Now Or Never and produced the stallion Valentino. She was never bred again as far as I can tell, maybe she died.

    Other highly awarded mares were Patricia, Arieta, Bacaranda, and Idoeschka They either produced stallions; or daughters and/or granddaughters who produced stallions; or they performed at the top of the sport themselves or produced kids who performed at the top.
    Rodawn, I know nothing of Dutch breeding damlines (know more about their stallions, but that is still limited). Do you know much about Karinka, as she is the grand dam on both sides of Patricia. She obviously was felt to be very special if he line bred that closely to her, and ended up producing Valentino.

    I am interested not in producing jumping horses, but at possibly using this line (through Viscount or Valentino) on some dressage-bred mares to help with power and push off the back end. Viscount was like his sire Valentino and was very well rounded in his SPT at Adelheisdorf, almost equaling his jumping index with his dressage index. I have seen videos of him under saddle and he looks like a very nice mover and received 9.5 for his character and temperament.



  7. #7
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    I'm only just getting started on some of these mares. Karinka is one who has interested me, but I'm still learning her history. She is also quite awarded... it would be impossible to follow all of these mares and most of them are deceased now.

    There is another stallion nick that follows her here and that is the stallion Solaris with Karinka.

    Karinka produced, as far as I can tell, 4 fillies, but when she was mated with Solaris, she produced the stallion Pandoer.

    Her Saros daughter, Feliritas, was paired with Governeur, and this produced the stallion, Golden Boy M, who was sent off to Zangersheide and from there I haven't had much time to look into his history, whether he was kept a stallion or shown or what have you. The stallion, Governeur, if you recall, is the son of Baranda a mare resulting from the Saros x Jacaranda pairing. So, the lines intermingle and you can get quite dizzy!!

    Karinka's Solaris daughter, is the mare Rarinka, who is the granddam to the stallion Wilton.

    Patricia is interesting. She is inbred through Karinka in her damline. Karinka bred to Solaris produced the stallion, Pandoer. Karinka bred to Kruger (an Uppercut son), produced the mare Orinka. These 2 half-siblings were paired together to produce the mare, Wrinza. When Wrinza was mated with Belisar, she produced Patricia. And Patricia was mated with Now or Never which produced the stallion, Valentino.

    It is a great study of true line breeding and an instance of INBREEDING when a breeder really, really knew these mares inside, out, backwards, and upside down and the inbreeding causes a strong stamping of specific traits being looked for. As a result, Valentino is a stallion who has some real star power. HE is the stallion that should produce the strongest stamping of his mare lineages and what he brings to the table, simply because his mareline genetics have been closely bred. There is a very bright future ahead for this stallion.

    The "Beste Stutenfamilie 2011" award was given to the owner of Patricia. There is a picture of him with 3 of his mares in the Das Goldene Buch der Celler Hengste. Lovely picture.

    Had my own mare not already been a Belisar, I would have rathered Valentino, but I want jumping, not a double-up of Belisar which might get me dressage. Later, if her pairing with Wilton produces something as decent as I suspect it will and if she can get pregnant with frozen, I just might try to stamp up on Belisar by using Valentino. Belisar was, himself, a spectacular dressage horse, competing to the highest of sport, still maintains very strong stats now years after his death as a stamping dressage stallion - Just in 2010 he was still indexing at 150 with a reliability of 93% and he is still one of Holland's highly ranked sires. Belisar produced at least 88 Ster mares, 12 Preferent mares and at least 6 Prestatie mares. He was an exceptional stallion, to say the least.

    The "roundedness" you talk about is indeed something Mr. Morssink and certain other breeders of this lineage were going for. Belisar, and also his father, Saros xx, produced powerfully built but elegant dressage horses with good shoulders and bums - EXCEPT when he paired with these jumping mares, such as Le Mexico or Uppercut, in which case the jumping took precidence and the bonus of good conformation remained and his added influence was he improved the basic movement. Not sure why this entirely happened because usually the dressage kills the jump, but Belisar could jump which is perhaps why they tried it in the first place and the results are, well, history.

    There is a strong family genetic trend in the Belisar-Saros xx X Now or Never horses continuing to not only their children, but is also still being seen in this cross' grandkids - they have strong jump and strong dressage abilities. Their movement is well above average. Their conformation is above average. Their brains are exceptional, indeed they are very intelligent horses and can be sensitive but still maintaining a sensibleness about them. They have exceptional athletic skills and jumping comes very natural and easy to them.

    What Hanover is liking with these lineages is they cross very well with Hanoverian lines, which is why Celle owns Now or Never, himself, and stands 4 of his sons there as well (Uccello, Valentino, Wilton, and Toronto).

    All total, Now or Never has 9 specific sons recognized by Hanover:
    Alchimist (bred in Holland, now in Germany, I believe)
    Toronto (in Germany)
    Uccello (in Germany)
    Uno
    Valentino (in Germany)
    Vallado (In the USA)
    Volkonsky (now in Russia)
    Wilson (Czech)
    Wilton (In Germany)

    There are other stallion sons I have been trying to follow up on:
    Now on Top (Belgium)
    Tininho (Spain)
    Vitello (may have been gelded, not sure? in Germany)
    Voltaire II (Holland)
    Walerno (Holland)


    Now or Never, himself, displays a strong stamping from his sire, Voltaire (which of course is the pairing between Furioso and Gotthard), and his damsire, Nimmerdor.
    Last edited by rodawn; Dec. 2, 2012 at 05:35 PM. Reason: more thoughts, typos, etc.
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  8. #8
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    Is there any information on how Valentino crosses with TB mares?



  9. #9
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    Also what traits is Valentino stamping his offspring with? Size? Temperament? Legs? Back? Top line? Ect... I am really interested in this stallion as a possible cross for my TB mare, out of You and I who goes back to Roberto and Masked Light on the top side and goes back to Danzig and Alydar on the bottom.



  10. #10
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    I can't answer for Valentino, but I can answer for Vallado. He stamps his pretty face, compact and leggy build as well as "10" character and ride ability. They are more sensitive and forward horses, elastic and athletic. They do tend to be a blooded typed of moderate frame and bone, so I use him with medium to large framed mares. I love, love, love the Now or Never / Saros cross that Mr. Morssink established and it is so sad that we lost this fantastic breeder. What is interesting is that Holland has totally missed the boat on these horses. Vallado has been an amazing cross on our Holsteiner mares and has produced our best young horses to date. For me, I would not look at this bloodline for a TB mare as they are blooded themselves. Maybe on the next generation.
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