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  1. #21
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    Rudy is my kind of guy. Jayne looks really well put together -a fortuitous F1 cross (I can't see her neck though).

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  2. #22
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    Feb. 24, 2011
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    Drafts and draft crosses are pretty hit or miss IME. You can always tell when a certain breed or type of horse is less suitable because people will start naming individuals who have succeeded. I've seen a handful that are quite nice, but most are horses that I wouldn't want to train. They tend to be heavy on the forehand, have slow hind legs, and are generally difficult to keep in good shape.

    That being said, what makes you think that your mare should be bred? What has she accomplished? Does she have traits that people look for in a horse? You need an honest eye to be a good breeder, and the ability to choose a stallion that will complement your mare accordingly.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  3. #23
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    I do believe that some of the successful "draft" crosses referred to here are RID crosses, not heavy draft (Belgian, Shire, Clyde) , and there IS a difference.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Like which ones? I guess it's a half full/half empty thing too. One might say that the moment people start identifying individual draft crosses that excel one knows the breed isn't suitable. OR One might say, since there are those of the breed type that excel it is possible to excel with this breed type.

    Quite right though; you will run into trainers who won't train your type. I lost my first potential dressage trainer when I got a draft cross. But you know, I did try to get the "right" horse, but was living life on the Draft Down Low and was miserable in the process. Fortunately I came to my senses in time and bought the horse type I wanted, not the horse type I should want.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  5. #25
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    Feb. 6, 2003
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    They will usually fail in the hock area, as they are not designed for work that requires reaching under themselves and carrying as in dressage.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    This is inaccurate as it implies that there is some perfect breed for dressage. In fact, as the experts describe, all breeds have challenges in upper level dressage. For example warmbloods are challenged to collect, and baroques are challenged to extend because of their respective conformations. Some of my serious dressage Gods walk you through evaluating a horse's conformation to anticipate his future challenges in upper level dressage.

    In addition, dressage is good for ALL horses. I like to use the the basketball analogy. If you're Michael Jordan you'll rock basketball, but most basketball players are not Michael Jordan so they have to depend on training, practice, drive, and repetition.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Indeed, as a lover of drafts and crosses, you have to find someone with a butt. They tend to be front loaded and straight-shouldered (which is a challenges to get lightness with).
    A very wise and successful breeder once told me if you won't be happy if the mare reproduces herself exactly, then you shouldn't breed her. She also told me you don't ever get half from this parent and half from that. Her example: Chestnut X bay doesn't produce a horse that's one half chestnut and one half bay.

    This is especially problematic when breeding a heavy breed to a lighter one. It's just an iffy proposition. Once you start looking at it as "let's put the hindquarters of this one on the body of that one," you're in trouble.
    __________________________
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    4 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Which is why so many of us like the OPs mare. Did you see her picture?

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  9. #29
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    I think we need a COTH conformation clinic to help people learn to identify key physical traits. I'll see if I can dig up some old photos of my own heinz-57 beasties... god knows I've re-schooled enough "unusual" body types to know the challenges that come with certain weaknesses. Unfortunately most of my pics are of the film variety and I don't have a scanner at hand... maybe others here would be interested in starting a thread showing examples of their own horses' conformation faults?.. not intended as a way of critiquing, but just to educate the less-experienced posters here?
    Proud COTH lurker since 2001.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Mar. 25, 2011
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    I'd love it. But we'd have to be able to add video too I think because, as one poster already observed, static conformation shots are one thing but without movement the assessment is incomplete.

    Goodness knows I had no idea what I was looking at when I first started looking for a horse.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  11. #31
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    Oct. 9, 2000
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    OP, I think your mare is pretty. Do you ride her? (did I miss that?)

    When I was shopping a couple years ago I found a TBxPerch that I really liked, brain-wise - and she was very comfortable to ride, too. But I couldn't get past her conformation: Perch on top of skinny TB legs with huge feet that were so oddly-shapen that she'd have to have custom shoes made if she'd ever need to be shod. It wasn't something I wanted to take a chance on.

    What are your goals for a future draft cross? You want to event/do dressage? So let's say you don't breed until next year. Then the following year you have a foal on the ground. Then three years after that you start to ride. That's a long time to wait to see if you like a draft cross as a LL eventing prospect.

    Why not either start your mare in dressage and jump training and see if she takes to it, or find one that is already going so you can see how much you like it?

    Has your mare been bred before? What traits did she pass on vs. the sire's traits? How did he improve her?

    If you want a "sport horse" from the mix, you'll need to improve her hind end, of course. But like someone said above, you don't just say "good sire's hind end plus good mare's front end equal perfect horse." I only have a sample size of two, but of the two horses I've had whose mother's I've seen pictures of (and seen sire's pictures, too), the horses looked just like their dams - even down to eyeballs and facial expressions. Both were spitting image of their dams and IMHO looked nothing like their sires!

    It would be a big crapshoot. If you want a draft horse cross for sport, I'd say see if you can find one that's already on the ground.
    My Mustang Adventures - my blog!
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    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


    3 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Jul. 23, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    This is inaccurate as it implies that there is some perfect breed for dressage. In fact, as the experts describe, all breeds have challenges in upper level dressage. For example warmbloods are challenged to collect, and baroques are challenged to extend because of their respective conformations. Some of my serious dressage Gods walk you through evaluating a horse's conformation to anticipate his future challenges in upper level dressage.

    In addition, dressage is good for ALL horses. I like to use the the basketball analogy. If you're Michael Jordan you'll rock basketball, but most basketball players are not Michael Jordan so they have to depend on training, practice, drive, and repetition.

    Paula
    But all of those basketball players practice with a basket ball... no one would go out and buy a football to become a great basketball player.

    Of course the OP isn't sure that she wants to become an upper level dressage rider, so all of this conjecture may be for nothing.
    One thing that isn't clear, OP would you be breeding for your own personal horse, or would you be breeding with a plan to sell at some time in the future?
    If you're looking to dabble in dressage, why can't you use your mare?


    Personally, I wouldn't breed the mare because she's not what I would be looking for in a dressage partner. From what I've seen at dressage shows, the draftX popularity has dramatically fallen with the sport bred warmbloods more readily available and affordable here in the States, so resale might be an issue - though there are always a few die-hard draft cross homes out there.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    But all of those basketball players practice with a basket ball... no one would go out and buy a football to become a great basketball player.

    Indeed, and we're not talking about bringing a cow into the dressage ring, merely a horse.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  14. #34
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    Aug. 18, 2011
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    NW Ohio
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    I have a lovely draft cross mare. Miss Mare is 3/4 Tb and 1/4 Percheron. A local man was crossing TB with Belgian and Percheron mares. I have seen many of his 1/2 and 1/2 horses. They all seem a little coarse to me, action is heavy and slow with huge shoulders and no butts. Miss Mare was the only 3/4TB he bred before loosing his stallion. She is much better balanced looking more like Irish Draught than Percheron. We are attempting dressage mostly but I have had someone work her over hunter fences and she jumps beautifully. I often think she would make an awesome fox hunter as her canter is her best gait.
    Sadly I have no recent pictures of her to share. I will see if DH will come out this weekeend to take a few.

    Paula Miss mare resembles Fella a lot



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    But all of those basketball players practice with a basket ball... no one would go out and buy a football to become a great basketball player.

    Indeed, and we're not talking about bringing a cow into the dressage ring, merely a horse.

    Paula
    And I wasn't suggesting using a bat, merely a ball. I'm pretty sure that MJ could make a three pointer with a football...

    If the OP wants to do dressage, I strongly suggest she enjoy it on her mare (who looks more than capable of learning dressage with her owner) before embarking on a 4 year (minimum) project to put baby on the ground then hope that it inherited all of the best points from dam and sire and that the OP still wants to do dressage/event at that level.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Which is why so many of us like the OPs mare. Did you see her picture?

    Paula
    I did. She has a rather straight shoulder and a steep croup -- not very desirable traits if you're breeding for a riding horse.

    I was commenting on what I thought was your breeding advice:

    you have to find someone with a butt. They tend to be front loaded and straight-shouldered (which is a challenges to get lightness with)
    Last edited by mp; Nov. 28, 2012 at 02:01 PM.
    __________________________
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    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."


    7 members found this post helpful.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mp View Post
    I did. She has a rather straight shoulder and a sloped croup -- not very desirable traits if you're breeding for a riding horse.

    I was commenting on what I thought was your breeding advice:
    Oh goodness, I would never give breeding advice. Did you see in my earlier post, I know nothing about breeding. I was talking about how I would go about choosing a draft cross for my dressage and all-rounder ambitions. So the lightness I was talking about achieving was in riding, not in breeding.

    Paula
    He is total garbage! Quick! Hide him on my trailer (Petstorejunkie).



  18. #38
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    Mar. 16, 2011
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    My advice: play around for a while in our sandbox and learn what works and what doesn't before you breed for it. You don't have to ride GP, but knowing what a steep croup means for collection will help, for example. Or the influence of a heavy neck/shoulder connection for lateral work.

    The way I see it, if you're breeding for a purpose, make sure you breed for the right purpose. If you want a dressage horse, breed a horse such that it'll have a better shot at being good at dressage. It's an entirely different kettle of fish from looking at the horse you already own or looking to buy a horse. If you own it or you're looking to buy something already in front of you, it's already on the ground and proven to some extent. What you get is what you get. If you're breeding for sport, you're creating a new horse from the ground up for the sport.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  19. #39
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    Jan. 1, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    This is inaccurate as it implies that there is some perfect breed for dressage. In fact, as the experts describe, all breeds have challenges in upper level dressage. For example warmbloods are challenged to collect, and baroques are challenged to extend because of their respective conformations. Some of my serious dressage Gods walk you through evaluating a horse's conformation to anticipate his future challenges in upper level dressage.

    In addition, dressage is good for ALL horses. I like to use the the basketball analogy. If you're Michael Jordan you'll rock basketball, but most basketball players are not Michael Jordan so they have to depend on training, practice, drive, and repetition.

    Paula
    There my not be a "perfect" breed for dressage, but there's no doubt that certain conformation qualities tend to produce horses that excell at any particular sport.

    I'm curious why you think that "warmbloods are challenged to collect."
    Fan of the Swedish Chef


    6 members found this post helpful.

  20. #40
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    Nov. 24, 2002
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    Northern KY
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    Default Extension comes more naturally for warmbloods, collection for the Baroque horses

    That said I had a fabulous draft cross, PerchxTB. Everyone thought he was an old style Hanoverian. Everyone. He was liver chestnut and had as close to perfect conformation as you could get. Really. He was not drafty, just big. His walk was a 10, his trot and canter were fabulous, his extensions were amazing and while collected work was NOT his favorite thing, when he gave it up it was heavenly.


    He was beautiful, athletic, smart.

    And could, from time to time, be the laziest, most pig-headed-I'm using the draft part of my personality-now horse I ever owned.

    Gallop and jump in the hunt field? Oh hell yeah, all day long, jumped the moon and anything between here and there.

    Trot a 20 meter circle? Uhnnn, maybe, maybe not. He just Did Not Want To Play the game.

    And that, in my mind, having had more than one of these multi-purpose, safe, sane, attractive draft types, is the Biggest Problem with them. Most horses (and we are not talking the upper levels here, but neither is the OP) can learn, through proper training and conditioning, to do fairly nice lower level stuff. Unless mentally, they just check out or are so lazy it is just an absolute war. When you have a horse that is usually big and strong, you can't "put him together", he has to be willing to work. And that, in my mind, is the single biggest problem with that cross. Nearly all of the ones I've met love to jump, will happily go cross country, will usually drive as well.

    But many of them (and I've had and started many) detest repetition and you can mix stuff up all you want, but a 20 meter circle is still a 20 meter circle and it just isn't fun for the horse or rider. It's about the work ethic.

    I would not, as lovely a draft as the OPs mare is, breed her (or any other straight draft mare, I'm leaving out the Irish horses) for a dressage partner foal. I would breed her for a field hunter or if a TB cross, a lower level eventer. Nothing about her says "my baby will be wonderful at dressage"

    There are too many nice babies that already have the conformation and pedigree to probably be nice dressage horses to breed something, just because there is a empty mare available to host.


    6 members found this post helpful.

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