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  1. #121
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    He's better than most dealers, traders, dudes one step before the neat market because he will take your horse off your hands, for free, and somehow profit from that, even if it means a straight trip to the meat plant? Just because he's sort of up front? GAG!

    Still a greedy (insert bad word) in my opinion. I don't buy the "he's helping some find homes by training and selling". He's helping his own pocket, period!
    People who care about the horses, any good human, does not EVER put a horse on a slaughter truck, knowingly sell to a kill buyer. They just don't. Greedy (bad word) people do.
    If he were decent he would take and train saleable ones, and humanely PTS the others and give the body to a big cat rescue, zoo etc. he would have his main priority the welfare of the horse, if he were decent. Not how much money he could make.
    I am not against HUMANE transport and slaughter. But if anyone here thinks the current situations are anywhere close to humane, your heads are up your fannys.
    You can argue all you want. I think he's garbage, because I think decent humans don't do that. Being sort of upfront about it doesn't make him better, IMO.
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


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  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    If he were decent he would take and train saleable ones, and humanely PTS the others and give the body to a big cat rescue, zoo etc. he would have his main priority the welfare of the horse, if he were decent. Not how much money he could make.
    You mean, if he were independently rich. I mean, do you go around collecting unwanted horses and PTS/disposing of them humanely? Does anyone who's not a rescue and funded by donors? Of course not, you'd go broke.

    Most people in the horse business, from BNT down to the low-level flippers, have as their main priority keeping themselves fed and housed. So they must make money. They might draw the line here and there (for ex, getting rid of an abusive client), but this is a job, not a charity. The main function of a job is to make money, so that you can...you know, live and stuff.


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  3. #123
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    Whatever on the bad rating, LOL! Bring on the silly anonymous thumbs down, rather than voicing your REASON why you disapprove of what I said. Because that's helpful, NOT.

    Slaughter, the way it is now, is terribly inhumane! And regardless of anyone's opinion of me, I will continue to say that anyone who sells a horse to slaughter, is greed driven, and without compassion. Make it humane, and I support it. I was raised in a family that hunted for food, and raised animals for food. I am not against eating animals. And I am not against anyone choosing to eat horses, dogs or cats. It's not for me, but if they are humanely killed, like every animal my grandparents and parents hunted or raised, I have no objection.

    I strongly object to greed driven, inhumane transport and slaughter. And people can continue to say this guy is Ok. My opinion will not change. I will never approve of some greedy turd profiting off of horses he knowingly sends to horrid ends. Good people don't do that. Good people use a bullet and dig a hole to spare suffering, even if it means they lost money on that risk. Defend all you want. Thumbs down, all you want. My view will not change. Because he's more up front, doesn't make him any less of a turd.
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  4. #124
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    To be fair I didn't get from the ad he's actively looking to take in horses to send straight to the meatman. He seems to actually want horses that have a potential for resale. However - his stipulations do say without speaking the words that if the horse doesn't sale or work out for whatever reason, the animal *could* go to auction or slaughter no problem.

    I'm not saying he's an upstanding citizen - I don't know this guy from Joe so I have no way to give that insight - but just that from the ad I read it as a guy looking for horses to train, vs. somebody that just wants to pick a horse up and haul it straight to the auction.

    My only problem with all of this is the small chance the horse could go to auction. I feel it should be said upfront that's a possibility because there truly are horse people out there that do not know horses get slaughtered. However small the chance of it happening may be, using myself as an example, if I didn't know about slaughter and it was my horse I gave to him thinking it was going on to this great new life I could no longer provide and it didn't work out and the horse did wind up at a slaughterhouse, I'd never forgive myself.

    ETA - I typed this when I was exhausted. I didn't mean from the ad itself, that definitely screams "meatman," but someone was talking to the guy and mentioned his responses, which made it seem to me like he preferred training horses for resale and didn't give me the impression he was going to haul them straight to auction.
    Last edited by shiningwizard255; Nov. 29, 2012 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Typo and Bad Grammar City!!!
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05



  5. #125
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    Make it humane, and I support it. I was raised in a family that hunted for food, and raised animals for food. I am not against eating animals.
    That's my view of it as well .


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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    He's better than most dealers, traders, dudes one step before the neat market because he will take your horse off your hands, for free, and somehow profit from that, even if it means a straight trip to the meat plant? Just because he's sort of up front? GAG!

    Still a greedy (insert bad word) in my opinion. I don't buy the "he's helping some find homes by training and selling". He's helping his own pocket, period!
    People who care about the horses, any good human, does not EVER put a horse on a slaughter truck, knowingly sell to a kill buyer. They just don't. Greedy (bad word) people do.
    If he were decent he would take and train saleable ones, and humanely PTS the others and give the body to a big cat rescue, zoo etc. he would have his main priority the welfare of the horse, if he were decent. Not how much money he could make.
    I am not against HUMANE transport and slaughter. But if anyone here thinks the current situations are anywhere close to humane, your heads are up your fannys.
    You can argue all you want. I think he's garbage, because I think decent humans don't do that. Being sort of upfront about it doesn't make him better, IMO.
    Do you know how much money it costs to put a horse to sleep? Not to mention disposing of them when you do....it's no easy nor cheap trek. Would I do it for my most valued 4-legged friends? You betchya! However, if you look at it from a business standpoint it's just not affordable to put to sleep every unwanted horse that comes in that doesn't work or can't do a job. So what do you do with it then? There's a few options....sales (auction), donate to colleges, give away as yard ornaments or actually you can donate them to local fox hunts where they will provide food for the hounds. Circle of life maybe? I dunno..I just can't be totally against slaughter this day in age because I've seen first hand the amount of irresponsibility people have when it comes to horses and breeding them. Do I wish the process was more humane? Yes! I do not agree with the transporting and the actual way of killing them...horses are not cows, they are far more in tune with their surroundings and far more spirited. I hope that some day soon they will find a better way of doing it because I do believe it is necessary if people are going to continue being stupid and selfish and breeding animals for useless purposes without any real knowledge of hereditary things that pass on, etc.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by alittlegray View Post
    The only contact I've had with this man is when I had DD's large pony up for lease/sale before he went to live with a fellow COTHer. I never even considered his offer to me (to give me a baby off his stallion in exchange for my really nice made large children's pony) partly because I needed something DD could move up on now and partly because his tone in every email he sent me was absolutely condescending and rude. He also told me my pony would be for his daughter, but when I checked him out I found out he is a flipper and I felt like odds were good he'd be flipping my pony.
    I don't have anything constructive to add to what has already been said about his solicitous craigslist posting as I think the majority here have it correct - he will flip what he can and send the rest to slaughter. Just not surprised to hear him call anyone who questions him a "shithead" based on how he was when he was communicating with me last year.
    I know he was actually looking for a pony for his daughter, because the one she is showing now is one that I bred and was acquired in a trade for a Silvio baby. (The trade wasn't with me. I sold the pony years ago.) I don't really know anything about them and I have had no direct contact with him, but the mom called looking for background info on the pony when she figured out where she came from. I saw them at a show and the pony looked wonderful and well taken care of. The daughter has sent me pictures of her all grown up and is a real sweetheart. I have sent her back some baby pictures and am in the process of helping them get VPBA papers transferred.


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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    Make it humane, and I support it. I was raised in a family that hunted for food, and raised animals for food. I am not against eating animals. And I am not against anyone choosing to eat horses, dogs or cats. It's not for me, but if they are humanely killed, like every animal my grandparents and parents hunted or raised, I have no objection.
    I Agree. The little snippets of slaughter hourses I have been able to watch before turning away, the horses looked terrified... like they were sure they were about to die. Well, Duh! They were right. Cows as a whole are a lot slower on the uptake and much less reactive. I'm not sure how you would engineer a slaughter plant to make it easier on a horse.


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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryswyn View Post
    I know plenty about Tim Daly. I would not send a horse to him. I would not train with him, and I certainly would not date him. I would also not tell him how much money I had and put him in my will...
    Interesting statement! I know someone earlier posted about how he and his girlfriend are taking care of the elderly woman who owns the property upon which they and his horses reside. I wondered if they were being so nice because they have good hearts or because they were hoping it would benefit them after she passed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    On a personal level he sounds like kind of a jerk in his emails. I've been very polite, and he calls anyone who has the nerve to ask what he does with the horses "shitheads".
    Hmmm...and banned from COTH twice. He hardly appears to have the credentials of someone deserving kudos for doing horse owners a favor.
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e350/Jen4USC/fave.jpg
    http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...SC/running.jpg


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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenm View Post
    Interesting statement! I know someone earlier posted about how he and his girlfriend are taking care of the elderly woman who owns the property upon which they and his horses reside. I wondered if they were being so nice because they have good hearts or because they were hoping it would benefit them after she passed.



    Hmmm...and banned from COTH twice. He hardly appears to have the credentials of someone deserving kudos for doing horse owners a favor.
    nice.

    maybe it is just a business arrangement.

    and he has no people skills.

    to sum it up, he must be a bad person.
    and evil to horses.

    sheesh, grow up.
    he's a horse trader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    15 members found this post helpful.

  11. #131
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    Jse: great that you would humanely PTS your beloved horses. And yes, I
    DO know what it costs. I have 4 on my property.

    And while I know it's not profitable to PTS horses you take as a business,I still feel that this person is greed driven. Cares far more for his wallet than for horses. Ad to me, that's wrong. Businesses have to make money. Of course. Or they don't survive. But MY opinion is that greedily scooping up horses and putting the almighty dollar above anything else is wrong. Immoral. Like selling water to people dying of thirst. Like puppy mills.

    I would not care what Daly did with horses if slaughter were humane. But it's far from that. And it's NOT a necessary evil. A bullet and a backhoe, or donate them to the big cat rescues. A humane end. They ALL deserve that. NO animal deserves the horrors of slaughter as it is now. And anyone who knowingly and willingly deals that way, is trash to me. He damn straight knows when he picks up certain ones, that he can only sell them to slaughter. But he's a greedy bass turd, who cares about his profit only.

    I try to be open minded. And I read arguments for those that defend him. But I am just shaking my head in disbelief that anyone can think its OK.
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


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  12. #132
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    And as mentioned earlier in the thread, Valley Proteins, a rendering plant is fairly close, so it should be pretty cheap to either haul the body there or have them pick it up. Or if he or his family own the land the stables are on, a bullet and burying is cheap.


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  13. #133
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    According to many folks, every single person ever buying and selling horses needs to wuvs dem like family, fully vet any and all buyers with 20 page contracts and multiple site visits and accept any and all horses and care for them for life if nobody else wants the horse.
    Normally I agree with your posts but.. .

    This is one that has that judge judy appeal which people enjoy har har but not sure this is a fair response to posts on this thread which are really more concerned with inhumane transport/ slaughter than with the fact of slaughtering horses.

    I think a bullet in the head is kinder that but guess people can't make a few bucks that way.

    In other words, if it is all fine and dandy, rather than wink wink nudge nudge, why not just say up front -- if dobbin does not work out -he'll be shipped to slaughter. Make sure the sellers know so they can't be willfully blind and shirk responsibility.

    Just be upfront about it. Many people are naive and sometimes it is non horsey parents moving a minor's horse along. They won't be in on the nudge nudge winky thing.

    However, I agree that this is not so much the horse trader's problem (if they are up front and why not be totally upfront if there is nothing off about it?) but primarily the responsibility of the owner who is dumping the horse.I just think it is disingenuos to think that everyone knows what is going on.
    Last edited by Crockpot; Nov. 30, 2012 at 09:09 AM.


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  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockpot View Post
    Normally I agree with your posts but.. .

    This is one that has that judge judy appeal which people enjoy har har but not sure this is a fair response to posts on this thread which are really more concerned with inhumane transport/ slaughter than with the fact of slaughtering horses.

    I think a bullet in the head is kinder that but guess people can't make a few bucks that way.

    In other words, if it is all fine and dandy, rather than wink wink nudge nudge, why not just say up front -- if dobbin does not work out -he'll be shipped to slaughter. Make sure the sellers know so they can't be willfully blind and shirk responsibility.

    Just be upfront about it. Many people are naive and sometimes it is non horsey parents moving a minor's horse along. They won't be in on the nudge nudge winky thing.

    However, I agree that this is not so much the horse trader's problem (if they are up front and why not be totally upfront if there is nothing off about it?) but primarily the responsibility of the owner who is dumping the horse.I just think it is disingenuos to think that everyone knows what is going on.
    It's the fallacy that has been perpetually spouted with no real facts to support it that all transport of slaughter horses is always abusive and every single kill at the plant is preceded by several misses.

    Considering that it IS a business after all and no profit can be made when the goods are perpetually damaged is a point that will just not come across.

    i would rather have the plants closer, eliminating the rides, but hey, what can you do when the MLP crowd gets their way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunset Ponies View Post
    I know he was actually looking for a pony for his daughter, because the one she is showing now is one that I bred and was acquired in a trade for a Silvio baby. (The trade wasn't with me. I sold the pony years ago.) I don't really know anything about them and I have had no direct contact with him, but the mom called looking for background info on the pony when she figured out where she came from. I saw them at a show and the pony looked wonderful and well taken care of. The daughter has sent me pictures of her all grown up and is a real sweetheart. I have sent her back some baby pictures and am in the process of helping them get VPBA papers transferred.
    Does it bother you that the pony you bred may wind up at an auction when they get the daughter a new one?
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



    2 members found this post helpful.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    Does it bother you that the pony you bred may wind up at an auction when they get the daughter a new one?
    It would bother me if that happened. The women who I was in contact with (who is not Tim Daly) understood my desire to keep track of her and said they would keep me updated on her. Unfortunately there isn't much that I can do if they decide not to contact me. I hope that all of the ponies that I have bred end up with happy homes, and I do my best to make sure they do, but once they are out of my hands it is beyond my control.


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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    Does it bother you that the pony you bred may wind up at an auction when they get the daughter a new one?
    Doesn't this apply to EVERY person that has ever sold a horse?

    People lie and flip it immediately, people who say it's a forever home change their minds or their circumstances change and they don't want to let the old owner know, people sell to another "perfect, forever home" and they end up selling, etc.

    I don't think anyone is saying this guy is a great person they would love to introduce to mommy, they are saying at least he isn't starting out by blowing sunshine up someone's rear.

    That isn't perfect, but it IS an improvement over the "horsie wanted for my kids/I'll keep them forever" ads and the ones that scan the ads for cheap horses and answer them professing a forever home and then load them immediately to ship to the plants.


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  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    But he's a greedy bass turd, who cares about his profit only.
    Bass turd, as in fish sh*t?

    Sorry but this cracks me up. Love auto correct.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  19. #139
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    That isn't perfect, but it IS an improvement over the "horsie wanted for my kids/I'll keep them forever" ads and the ones that scan the ads for cheap horses and answer them professing a forever home and then load them immediately to ship to the plants.
    PRECISELY.

    And what I'm saying (in addition) is that the moral outrage and condemnation is useless and doesn't serve the horses. It doesn't punish him. It does absolutely nothing.


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  20. #140
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    The sad fact is that many people don't care about what happens to an animal after they relinquish ownership/control. As long as they aren't the ones being asked to make the decision, there is a minimum of angst over the ultimate fate of the animal in question.

    I ran the foster program for a large, regional animal shelter. It was open admission, meaning they took whatever came through the door. As with most (all?) open admission shelters, they euthanized animals when they ran out of room. It didn't happen often (especially with dogs), but it was a fact of life and anyone surrendering an animal had to sign a form stating they were aware that their pet could be euthanized.

    Although I didn't work at the front desk, I was often up there and saw countless conversations about this. The surrendering owner might complain, saying they thought we were no-kill. They might insist that the animal in question had some redeeming quality that should automatically preclude it from ever being in danger. But 99% of the surrendering owners still signed their animal over, and about 98% of them did not check the box on the form that required the shelter to contact them and give them the option of taking the pet back if it ever ended up on a euthanization list. I heard so many variations on the comment, "If it happens, I don't want to know".

    I would think the psychology with horses is very similar. Even if this broker/flipper under discussion is up front with people who decide to hand their horses over to him, being one degree removed from that decision is all it takes to indemnify the surrendering owner from responsibility (at least, in their own eyes). They aren't the ones who consigned the horse to a low end auction, someone else did, and that is all it takes to make many people okay with handing the horse over.

    So I wouldn't be so quick to assume that he doesn't disclose a possible auction end to people who are serious about giving their horse to this guy. Just because he doesn't chat about auctions and slaughter pipelines to every Tom, Dick and Harry who calls wanting to rubberneck his operation doesn't mean it isn't disclosed to those who are serious about giving up a horse. And just because people hand their horses over willingly doesn't mean he isn't disclosing either.

    I know nothing about him, so he could very well be the Devil Incarnate. But I have watched too people rationalize their willing abdication of responsibility for an animal's ultimate fate to think that the majority of them need to be tricked in order to hand the animal over.
    Sheilah


    14 members found this post helpful.

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