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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    More than one mistake a year could easily become a problem. We've got three buried over the past 10 years, and we're beginning to run out of spots. You would seriously have to dedicate an area to it. Away from water contamination for both humans and livestock. Fenced off from pasture areas because graves sink and you don't want your good horses breaking legs in sunken graves of worthless horses. And, our friendly neighborhood excavator charges $75 per horse which DOES NOT cover his costs (he's seriously a nice guy and understands most people have already spent all their spare cash on trying to save their horse) so I'm projecting that actual real world backhoe costs on one horse are nearer $100. Plus land taxes on otherwise unuseable land. Plus cost of gun and ammunition. Plus what you fed the horse while you are trying to retrain it/get it sound.
    I don't know the exact figures. And I am sure there's more than one way to skin a cat (have the body rendered, donate to big cat society, sell the tail and use that towards the cost of cremetion, etc. etc.). I don't know how useful it is to try to breakdown someone's hypothetical expenses as opposed to discussing, in the abstract, the concept of humane death/disposal as a reasonable overhead cost of flipping. I'm making up numbers just for the sake of discussion, but I think it's the discussion on not quibbling with the specific numbers that's beneficial.
    Last edited by vxf111; Dec. 3, 2012 at 12:29 PM. Reason: spelling, not playing for my team today!
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claddagh View Post
    Oh come on - one minute you defend him as someone trying to make a living doing something that is *legal* (no matter how unethical or deceptive his practices are) and now you're saying that he doesn't want to make money by taking in horses that, as a horse seller he knows will sell well, simply because he doesn't personally like the color grey??? WTH
    I don't give a fig why he does like or not like a certain color of horse.
    It might be that he does not want to deal with melanomas, can't sell them to the meat man or simply has an aversion to them.
    That is his prerogative.

    I sure would like how any of you would like it if your affairs would be put under a microscope in this manner.

    He is taking horses from people who can't/won't market the animal.
    He also gives incentives to call sooner rather than later (re: not skinny)

    non of you knows if he is selling to the meat man. But you all have him already tried, convicted and sentenced. Without evidence, just on 'feel' and emotion.

    it's a business.
    More horse people should try this on for size, maybe we would have a few less problems in the industry.

    he's not going to be the 'forever home'
    he's going to foot the feed bill only for a short while.
    In business you have to make money to keep the doors open.
    And to pay the feed bill.

    Otherwise,w e would end up with just another hoarding situation.

    FWIW, get on to your representatives to support more local, affordable means of disposing of large animals, like zoning for rendering plants, etc....

    because many of the options one can do with a single horse are completely out of the question when dealing in larger volume.
    But I am sure the majority will step back from that issue, since nobody wants to have the knacker in their zip code....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.


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  3. #183
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    I believe the "no greys" question was answered in the first few pages by someone who actually contacted him--mud and the challenge of keeping a sales horse clean. The "no skinnies" was answered too--too many well-meaning folks called A/C and A/C is obligated to investigate every claim even if they know that particular farm. It's a bureaucratic hassle.

    Does this mean he doesn't send failed horses to auction? Of course not. But even if he is dumping a ton of horses, he's giving them a shot that they didn't otherwise have in their current situations.

    This has to be one of the least productive threads I've seen in a while. Slaughter sucks in a big way. I don't think many (any??) of us aren't at least nominally bothered by it. But at the moment, it's legal. If you are so adamantly opposed, spend your time and energy doing something productive to help change that. Or just wait a few more months for the new regs to go into effect and then hope that things are better. Frankly, I'm worried that without slaughter, that things might just get worse when people no longer have a dumping ground and then horses just linger and starve to death. I hate slaughter. I think it's awful and evil and cruel. But starvation is a hell of a lot longer and sure isn't pleasant. I certainly don't have all of the answers, nor do I have a crystal ball, but I wish both sides could be a bit less histrionic and a bit more realistic.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    I believe the "no greys" question was answered in the first few pages by someone who actually contacted him--mud and the challenge of keeping a sales horse clean. The "no skinnies" was answered too--too many well-meaning folks called A/C and A/C is obligated to investigate every claim even if they know that particular farm. It's a bureaucratic hassle.

    Does this mean he doesn't send failed horses to auction? Of course not. But even if he is dumping a ton of horses, he's giving them a shot that they didn't otherwise have in their current situations.

    This has to be one of the least productive threads I've seen in a while. Slaughter sucks in a big way. I don't think many (any??) of us aren't at least nominally bothered by it. But at the moment, it's legal. If you are so adamantly opposed, spend your time and energy doing something productive to help change that. Or just wait a few more months for the new regs to go into effect and then hope that things are better. Frankly, I'm worried that without slaughter, that things might just get worse when people no longer have a dumping ground and then horses just linger and starve to death. I hate slaughter. I think it's awful and evil and cruel. But starvation is a hell of a lot longer and sure isn't pleasant. I certainly don't have all of the answers, nor do I have a crystal ball, but I wish both sides could be a bit less histrionic and a bit more realistic.
    All valid points (except I seriously doubt that he doesn't take greys because he doesn't want to keep them clean!). And I don't think that any of them are at issue here, really. I think the *real* issue is not what he (the CL advertiser) does, but the way he does it. He places ads in hopes that he can collect free horses to make money with. Fine. But he doesn't advertise that some (maybe a lot) of those horses are going to be flipped to the meat man! Because if he told people this fact, he'd most likely get far fewer horses given to him.

    Again, the issue isn't so much what he does but the fact that he is deceptively collecting the horses that he does it with (and for his own personal monetary gain). Heck, if those horse owners wanted their horses to go to the meat man they could sell them to him themselves - and put the money in their own pockets!


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  5. #185
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    Most dealers will send a horse through auction if they can't sell it.

    Going through auction is not an automatic death sentence. Meat buyers aren't going to buy more than they're contracted to deliver.

    Dealers prefer to sell privately. They make a *lot* more to a private buyer than a meat buyer.

    No dealer is going to put "unsold horses to be auctioned" in their ads. No dealer should have to.

    But if the person giving the horse away or selling it them asks, "What happens if you can't sell it?" the dealers say "It'll probably end up going through auction." The seller/owner has the option of saying no, saying they'll take it back, etc. If a dealer is putting a straight-forward ad like that up, he's not about to tell them "It'll be a free donated pony to the nuns who will keep it forever."

    He's not going to say anything if they don't ask. He's not obligated to, not even morally. The morals lie with the person giving the horse away. He won;t take every one. And it won't be "he'd get a lot less if he said they might go to auction" because 90% of the owners never ask. They don't want to know, they just want the animal off the payroll.

    And as for having them checmically euthanized...very few vets will euthanize a horse that's not in chronic pain or terminal. If a horse is unsound but otherwise content, try finding a vet to euthanize it. Then there's disposing a body full of chemicals.

    And yes, legally on paper you can shoot your own animals. In reality? Try dealing with lots of unsound animals, shooting a handful annually and watch how fast you get reported for cruelty by all the nosy-bodies out there. And yes, AC will come down on you with both feet. Highly doubt anyone would want to be investigated repeatedly.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claddagh View Post
    Again, the issue isn't so much what he does but the fact that he is deceptively collecting the horses that he does it with (and for his own personal monetary gain). Heck, if those horse owners wanted their horses to go to the meat man they could sell them to him themselves - and put the money in their own pockets!
    How do you know that he is deceptively acquiring horses? Have you called him to ask if he ever sends a horse to auction? Have you asked him if he tells buyers what might happen to their horse if they don't work out for his program? Some people would never ask what might happen to their unwanted horses. If they don't ask or don't want to know, is that his problem? Should every buyer/acquirer disclose every possible option for each and every horse they look at? Seems to me there's a whole lot of speculation and accusations being flung and a whole lot of information lacking.

    I'm not saying Tim is a perfect angel, but the closeminded, judgey pants, condemned before a fair trial attitudes are pretty offensive.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    How do you know that he is deceptively acquiring horses? Have you called him to ask if he ever sends a horse to auction? Have you asked him if he tells buyers what might happen to their horse if they don't work out for his program? Some people would never ask what might happen to their unwanted horses. If they don't ask or don't want to know, is that his problem? Should every buyer/acquirer disclose every possible option for each and every horse they look at? Seems to me there's a whole lot of speculation and accusations being flung and a whole lot of information lacking.

    I'm not saying Tim is a perfect angel, but the closeminded, judgey pants, condemned before a fair trial attitudes are pretty offensive.
    From Jetsmom's earlier post. Saying people who ask about the ones that don't work out are "shitheads" doesn't really sound like someone who is being open and honest. Purely speculation on my part, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    Yes,
    I've been emailing with him. He won't say what he does with ones that don't work out. I'm pretty sure they are sold at auction with no reserve. He is pro slaughter, but does seem to be helping some, by retraining and selling. I am ok with what he is doing but wish he was more upfront with what the horse's fate will be if he doesn't work out. That's my only issue with him.

    On a personal level he sounds like kind of a jerk in his emails. I've been very polite, and he calls anyone who has the nerve to ask what he does with the horses "shitheads".
    Proud owner of a Slaughter-Bound TB from a feedlot, and her surprise baby...!
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  8. #188
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    He's probably not going to win any congeniality prizes, but I also fully understand anyone not telling some random, unknown caller asking questions. Things may be a lot different when he's talking face to face with a person that's giving or selling him a horse.

    I know around here most dealers, auctions, etc will not answer any questions over the phone. Why? So many times it's slightly nutty folks trying to screw them over because they disagree with what they do. If they're going to talk to you, it's face to face with someone they'll be doing business with as opposed to phone interviews with people they aren't doing actual business with.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    And yes, legally on paper you can shoot your own animals. In reality? Try dealing with lots of unsound animals, shooting a handful annually and watch how fast you get reported for cruelty by all the nosy-bodies out there. And yes, AC will come down on you with both feet. Highly doubt anyone would want to be investigated repeatedly.
    Someone can correct me if I am misreading the NY Ag and Markets code, because it may be this applies only to seizure of abused animals (I'm no lawyer)but wanton shooting of healthy horses could possibly be prosecuted and at least make a dealer's business a big darn hassle. I have no idea what Virginia's laws say on the matter.

    http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/AI/AILaws/Article-26.pdf

    4. a. Any method of euthanasia other than that provided for in
    subdivision three of this section is prohibited except that euthanasia
    of an animal by gunshot is permissible as an emergency measure for an
    animal that is posing an imminent threat of serious physical injury to a
    person or to another animal as provided in section one hundred
    twenty-one-a of this chapter and where the use of a humane method of
    euthanasia prescribed in this section is rendered impossible or where a
    severely injured animal is suffering and cannot otherwise be aided.
    Last edited by SmartAlex; Dec. 3, 2012 at 10:31 PM.
    Why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse, yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?
    ~ Dave Barry


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  10. #190
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    Yes, this is true in many to most states.

    You cannot just shoot your animals Just Because. They have to require shooting and each states' version of requirement is different.

    But shooting or euthanizing a chronic condition that isn't in severe pain is usually not allowed. So if a vet can't/won't do it and the owner wouldn't so fobbed it off on someone else and nobody else is allowed to do it either. So what the heck do these folks do?

    Yeah, in an ideal paradise everyone would want to/be able to care for every lame horse for the 25-30 natural years of it's life. But this isn't Eden. Countless people can't/won't for a pet fish or hamster...tons more can't/won't for something 50x more expensive to care for and that lives a helluva lot longer.

    And no...at no time ever in the future will responsibility or someone else's ideals be legally enforceable onto the general public.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    And as for having them checmically euthanized...very few vets will euthanize a horse that's not in chronic pain or terminal. If a horse is unsound but otherwise content, try finding a vet to euthanize it. Then there's disposing a body full of chemicals.
    I think this isn't really the whole story of having an animal that you can't rehome euthanized by a vet. Just look at the blog for the Horse Plus Humane Society (formerly Nor Cal).

    They have a safe surrender site that takes any horse, no questions asked. It gets evaluated and if it won't have a "good quality of life", it gets euthed by their vet. They don't elaborate on disposal but there are a heck of a lot of bodies that they're somehow managing to get rid of every year.

    So I don't think anyone should be so quick to dismiss the realistic option of euthanasia for horses that can't be given away. It does happen and these don't seem to be in chronic pain or terminal, necessarily.

    We are talking in theory about horses for whom you've exhausted every other option, after all. I don't think it's so clear-cut that their owners can't get the vet to put them down, humanely, rather than resort to a flipper.

    I just bought enough hay to feed my two horses for about eight weeks and it cost me $360. [One of them, by the way, is lame and totally useless, and if I had to get rid of him it would either be as a companion to someone I trust or I would see if the hunt would take him, etc. No horse of mine is going to an auction.]

    My point though is that if you can't afford to euth a horse you can't afford to feed it either and you never should have gotten it. Why are so many so quick to gloss over that basic fact? And I'm not sure why the onus then falls on the rest of us to bail that irresponsible owner out.

    I realize that not being able to afford to care for a horse does not deter plenty of idiots from acquiring them anyway, but they're going to keep on doing that no matter how many we condemn to the slaughter auctions.

    You'll never kill enough horses to make them so rare that idiots can't get them. And as long as people want to eat them, there will be slaughter, even if the slaughterhouses start to have to pay more.

    So no, as far as the OP goes...I don't think this flipper is doing the horses a service by taking them off the hands of their deadbeat owners. He's just making room for more, and more, and more, to suffer the same fate.

    Flippers aren't part of any solution, they're just people capitalizing on an easy way to make money. I don't oppose making money in the horse world, but if you can't do it without having to resort to dumping horses off at auctions, maybe you should find another job.

    I work full time to support my horses, not the other way around, and it's not anyone's god-given right to have their horses turn into a paycheck.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    I just bought enough hay to feed my two horses for about eight weeks and it cost me $360. [One of them, by the way, is lame and totally useless, and if I had to get rid of him it would either be as a companion to someone I trust or I would see if the hunt would take him, etc. No horse of mine is going to an auction.]

    My point though is that if you can't afford to euth a horse you can't afford to feed it either and you never should have gotten it. Why are so many so quick to gloss over that basic fact? And I'm not sure why the onus then falls on the rest of us to bail that irresponsible owner out.

    I realize that not being able to afford to care for a horse does not deter plenty of idiots from acquiring them anyway, but they're going to keep on doing that no matter how many we condemn to the slaughter auctions.

    You'll never kill enough horses to make them so rare that idiots can't get them. And as long as people want to eat them, there will be slaughter, even if the slaughterhouses start to have to pay more.

    So no, as far as the OP goes...I don't think this flipper is doing the horses a service by taking them off the hands of their deadbeat owners. He's just making room for more, and more, and more, to suffer the same fate.

    I work full time to support my horses, not the other way around, and it's not anyone's god-given right to have their horses turn into a paycheck.
    You don't know what others are going through financially. Maybe they could afford a horse, maybe they aren't and never were "deadbeats", maybe they're just everyday people that have hit hard times.
    "All top hat and no canter". *Graureiter*


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  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    I think this isn't really the whole story of having an animal that you can't rehome euthanized by a vet. Just look at the blog for the Horse Plus Humane Society (formerly Nor Cal).

    They have a safe surrender site that takes any horse, no questions asked. It gets evaluated and if it won't have a "good quality of life", it gets euthed by their vet. They don't elaborate on disposal but there are a heck of a lot of bodies that they're somehow managing to get rid of every year.
    I agree that the programs they have running (the euthanasia clinic and the gelding clinic) are wonderful and should be available in every other region. But the sad fact is that those programs aren't available everywhere, and even the organizations that offer them have a finite limit on their resources and sometimes have to turn people away.
    Sheilah


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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
    You don't know what others are going through financially. Maybe they could afford a horse, maybe they aren't and never were "deadbeats", maybe they're just everyday people that have hit hard times.
    You don't know either, but the running assumption on here is that they, through no fault of their own, got down to their last $200 and still hadn't figured out what to do with their horses. I don't buy it.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    I agree that the programs they have running (the euthanasia clinic and the gelding clinic) are wonderful and should be available in every other region. But the sad fact is that those programs aren't available everywhere, and even the organizations that offer them have a finite limit on their resources and sometimes have to turn people away.
    Sheilah
    You're right. My point was that getting a vet to euthanize a horse that isn't in clear need of immediate euthanasia can clearly be done, even with limited resources, and the bodies do get handled. In large numbers in the case of that rescue in Sacramento. But let's keep making excuses for individuals who can't do the same, I suppose.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  16. #196
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    Mandy, I think you need to learn the cost and effort involved in euthanization clinics. It's not close to "on limited resources." And even then with 2 clinics annually there, plenty auction horses also.

    Euthanizing clinics are great. And rare. Why? They're not even close to free and not held often because they take tons of hard work and time raising the money to be able to pay for them. And the bulk of the payment is the disposal of the bodies.

    Gelding clinics are also great...and less expensive. (lot cheaper to dispose of testicles only )

    (sorry guys, not saying those things are cheap)

    It's not anyone's given right to make their money in any way. Tons of sale barns also send their horses through auctions. *Tons* of them, not low end barns either. Dealers are there because there's a market. They're cleaning up other peoples' messes. Removing the dealers will not lower the amount of ignorant or uncaring horse owners. It won't make a dent in them. They've always been around, they'll always be around. You just cannot force responsibility.

    Believe me, I wish things were different and everyone who ever decides to own any animal did so in a planned, affordable and humane manner. But it's like wishing for World Peace, fat reducing ice cream and honest politicians.

    And even planned does not include those who do indeed have some sort of catastrophe financially.

    Something that does have a chance of happening...safer, better slaughter process. Done correctly for horses from start to finish. THAT can be changed.

    And no...there wasn't public suppport for ammending and enforcing process policies before. Nobody wanted that, they wanted to ban it. Without taking into consideration the entire history of human nature...it didn't and never will force owners to become responsible. Neither will trying to stop equine export.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    You're right. My point was that getting a vet to euthanize a horse that isn't in clear need of immediate euthanasia can clearly be done, even with limited resources, and the bodies do get handled. In large numbers in the case of that rescue in Sacramento. But let's keep making excuses for individuals who can't do the same, I suppose.
    No, not every vet is willing to do a convenience euthanasia. And euthanazing a horse that is not clearly in need of it is seen as a convenience by many vets.

    The vets that take part in the euthanasia clinics are vets that ALREADY believe in giving a humane death to a healthy horse. Try to get a vet who doesn't believe in it to participate, then tell me that it "can clearly be done".
    Sheilah



  18. #198
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    I don't think they even do the euthanasia clinics anymore. They euthanize horses all.the.time. at Horse Plus. Why are we arguing about how much it costs? Wasn't the issue that you don't think vets will put down horses that just can't be given away?

    No, you won't change human nature. Slaughter isn't there to fix the stupidity of humans. It's for the few to make a lot of money without getting real jobs. Whether it's here or not, people will keep on abusing horses. But don't pretend it serves a purpose. It doesn't spare any horses from any worse fate. There is none.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    No, not every vet is willing to do a convenience euthanasia. And euthanazing a horse that is not clearly in need of it is seen as a convenience by many vets.
    Then why are there threads on this board every day about what to do with a horse you don't want anymore, and euthanasia is ALWAYS one of the options the owner is considering. The filly that may or may not have UV. The gelding who needs pricey shoes for his rotated coffin bone. Convenience euthanasia?

    I don't know, but I do know these people could just as easily call this guy from the OP, not mention the horses' issues, and give this guy their problem horses. And nobody ever throws up the "well the vet might not want to do it..." when we're talking about real horses that really might end up in a bad place. No one. And nobody suggests an auction for it either.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns




  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by MandyVA View Post
    . Why are we arguing about how much it costs? Wasn't the issue that you don't think vets will put down horses that just can't be given away?
    The cost of euthanasia and disposal should be a part of any discussion regarding unwanted horses, simply because the cost can make the difference between accessible and inaccessible for many owners who are in that position.

    And I don't just "think" that many vets won't euthanize a healthy horse, I know that many vets won't do it. It goes against their moral beliefs to do it.

    I completely understand why people are opposed to slaughter. I certainly wouldn't choose that end for any horse I owned. But lets not become willfully naive about the choices available for those people who have hit the end of the road regarding their horse(s). In many areas there aren't euthanasia clinics. In many areas the local vets won't put down a healthy horse. To believe that there is a euthanasia option every where, for every unwanted horse, is just plain silly.
    Sheilah


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