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  1. #141
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    This is well said ^^^

    I have worked for honest flipper and dishonest ones.

    One I worked for (I was the rider) had a nice QH gelding. He NQR and he was taken to a vet about it. Result was he would be a good low level guy. I loved riding him. Some ppl came to look at him and wanted to vet him and loved him also. A few days later they saw me at a store and said "Hey, we actually know you. You sold your horse Ben to some friends of ours and they think he is wonderful. You must be an honest person... what do you think of Dobbin?" I ask what they had been told and they failed to mention his issue. I did lightly mention it because daughter wanted an upper level eventer. I told them that would wouldn't pass a vet check.

    He ended up being sold to someone else.

    I actually would like to get into the business again. I am not at a place in my life to start now because I don't have the money to buy them. I liked riding sales horses. It would be great to do this until my foal (born 2013) is 3ish.
    Last edited by Nootka; Nov. 30, 2012 at 04:45 PM.
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  2. #142
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    Nothing made me madder than to find out that the stray dog I took to the shelter was euthanized the next day. Why? Because when I dropped her off, the guy that took her in told me that they were a no-kill shelter and that they would find her a good home. If I had known that she was that close to being euthanized, I would have taken her back to the barn and found her a home. I was lied to, plain and simple, and because of that I will never donate to the local shelter again. I'm still steamed about it to this day. Poor dog!

    Bottom line, this guy sounds like he would tell you the truth if you asked and that's good enough. If people won't ask, a pox on them, but I'll take honesty any day.


    12 members found this post helpful.

  3. #143
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    Don't you ask potential buyers questions such as what they hope to do with Dobbin. where you will keep him etc. So why wouldn't you ask the same questions from a person who you are giving the horse to?

    It is up to the owners to ask what he plans to do with it and if they don't then that is their problem. JMO


    5 members found this post helpful.

  4. #144
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    Why is it such an unacceptable concept that the cost of putting a bullet in unsaleable horses might be a reasonable cost of doing business/overhead if you're a flipper/dealer? Why MUST a dealer squeeze every last penny from every horse? Let's say you buy 5 horses for $500 each. You sell 2 for $1000, 2 for $500, and one is lame and unsaleable except for slaughter. Why is it so nuts to think the $1000 total profit you might might be used, in part, to shoot the horses so they have a humane end (before giving the body to the knackers or other)? You profit on some, you lose on some but just like you have other expenses like hay, grain, etc. as a cost of doing business--- why isn't a humane end sometimes part of your overhead? I mean, he's getting them FREE so he isn't even OUT anything up front for the horses. He really NEEDS a couple hundred bucks from the meatman versus spending $10 of a bullet. REALLY?

    If I was in that business, I'd have to find a way to cover hunamely disposing of the unsaleable or else I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And at least around here (and I suspect there with the number of area hunts) it costs next to nothing to get someone to come and shoot a body and minimal to dispose of the carcass unless it's taken for meat in which case it's free.

    There is no reason that just because someone flips they HAVE to sell horses at auction to the meatman. There are alternatives.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Why is it such an unacceptable concept that the cost of putting a bullet in unsaleable horses might be a reasonable cost of doing business/overhead if you're a flipper/dealer? Why MUST a dealer squeeze every last penny from every horse? Let's say you buy 5 horses for $500 each. You sell 2 for $1000, 2 for $500, and one is lame and unsaleable except for slaughter. Why is it so nuts to think the $1000 total profit you might might be used, in part, to shoot the horses so they have a humane end (before giving the body to the knackers or other)? You profit on some, you lose on some but just like you have other expenses like hay, grain, etc. as a cost of doing business--- why isn't a humane end sometimes part of your overhead? I mean, he's getting them FREE so he isn't even OUT anything up front for the horses. He really NEEDS a couple hundred bucks from the meatman versus spending $10 of a bullet. REALLY?

    If I was in that business, I'd have to find a way to cover hunamely disposing of the unsaleable or else I wouldn't be able to sleep at night. And at least around here (and I suspect there with the number of area hunts) it costs next to nothing to get someone to come and shoot a body and minimal to dispose of the carcass unless it's taken for meat in which case it's free.

    There is no reason that just because someone flips they HAVE to sell horses at auction to the meatman. There are alternatives.
    But this is all a guess, we have no idea whether he sells to the KB or not. He may well use a bullet on horses that he can't sell.

    We are all making up stories based on a CL posting that simply says he will take unwanted horses.


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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by skykingismybaby1 View Post
    But this is all a guess, we have no idea whether he sells to the KB or not. He may well use a bullet on horses that he can't sell.

    We are all making up stories based on a CL posting that simply says he will take unwanted horses.
    Well, it's a pretty clear indication from the "no grays" rule and people who've posted that they've seen him selling at low end auctions.

    But forget him... let's talk in the abstract. Why is it okay for a business person to do something nasty just because it makes more money. I am sure most businesses would save money if they dumped pollution in the river behind their shop. Is that okay? If not, why is sending horses to the slaughter pipeline okay just because someone's in the business of reselling?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  7. #147
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    Vxf111 thank you!
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.



  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Well, it's a pretty clear indication from the "no grays" rule and people who've posted that they've seen him selling at low end auctions.

    But forget him... let's talk in the abstract. Why is it okay for a business person to do something nasty just because it makes more money. I am sure most businesses would save money if they dumped pollution in the river behind their shop. Is that okay? If not, why is sending horses to the slaughter pipeline okay just because someone's in the business of reselling?

    It is ok for someone to sell horses 'down the slaughter pipeline' because it is legal.

    it is not nasty. It is something you do not agree with.
    Huge difference.

    if the people who give/sell him horses don't give a rip, you are SOL on the case.
    Of course, you can take the horses yourself, train them and give them to forever homes, or better yet, to make sure they never have a problem, you keep them yourself.

    This is not like clothing manufacturers locking their 'workers' up inside the plant or making a buck on child labor.

    Put your money were your mouth is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    It is ok for someone to sell horses 'down the slaughter pipeline' because it is legal.

    it is not nasty. It is something you do not agree with.
    Huge difference.

    if the people who give/sell him horses don't give a rip, you are SOL on the case.
    Of course, you can take the horses yourself, train them and give them to forever homes, or better yet, to make sure they never have a problem, you keep them yourself.

    This is not like clothing manufacturers locking their 'workers' up inside the plant or making a buck on child labor.

    Put your money were your mouth is.

    1. It's not my business. I don't buy and sell horses. So I don't have any capability to do anything about what he (or anyone else) is doing. I have 2 retired/unrideable horses that I pay to board because I think that's the ethical thing to do. It would be cheaper/easier to dump them at auction but that wouldn't be right.

    2. Yes, I disagree with his practice. But that is a separate question of whether it's a nice/ethical thing to do. Ethics are tough, but I personal find it unethical to profit on free horses (he's putting NO RISK into them, doesn't outlay any of his own money) by selling them to slaughter/kill buyers.

    3. I don't know if the people who give him horses "give a rip" or not. Hard to say because I don't think he's being upfront with them. They may also be unethical people. I'm not absolving the owners of any poor behavior. But again, that's a separate question.

    4. The question of whether it is "legal" is again different than whether it's ethical. No one ever said this behavior was illegal. (and for the record I didn't use "nasty" to refer to this specific person but the abstract idea of businesses in general doing bad things).

    5. Again, false alternatives. "Forever homes" and keeping them isn't the only option. I am majorly in favor of a well placed bullet. Cheap (often free) and sometimes the meat can be used in a fruitful way (by the hunt, etc.). The only reason NOT to take that option is to squeeze the very last penny out of a horse... who was free in the first place. I just think that's a sorry way to do business. Especially when you turn a profit on the sale of other freebies. Shouldn't some of that profit be used to give a non-cruel end to other freebies. Someone who takes free horses has no skin in the game- no risk. And can profit greatly if they can be flipped to show/riding homes. So what's so crazy about a little, just a measly "price of a bullet" bit of that profit making a non-cruel end for the ones who didn't turn out to be good flips?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    1. It's not my business. I don't buy and sell horses. So I don't have any capability to do anything about what he (or anyone else) is doing. I have 2 retired/unrideable horses that I pay to board because I think that's the ethical thing to do. It would be cheaper/easier to dump them at auction but that wouldn't be right.

    2. Yes, I disagree with his practice. But that is a separate question of whether it's a nice/ethical thing to do. Ethics are tough, but I personal find it unethical to profit on free horses (he's putting NO RISK into them, doesn't outlay any of his own money) by selling them to slaughter/kill buyers.

    3. I don't know if the people who give him horses "give a rip" or not. Hard to say because I don't think he's being upfront with them. They may also be unethical people. I'm not absolving the owners of any poor behavior. But again, that's a separate question.

    4. The question of whether it is "legal" is again different than whether it's ethical. No one ever said this behavior was illegal. (and for the record I didn't use "nasty" to refer to this specific person but the abstract idea of businesses in general doing bad things).

    5. Again, false alternatives. "Forever homes" and keeping them isn't the only option. I am majorly in favor of a well placed bullet. Cheap (often free) and sometimes the meat can be used in a fruitful way (by the hunt, etc.). The only reason NOT to take that option is to squeeze the very last penny out of a horse... who was free in the first place. I just think that's a sorry way to do business. Especially when you turn a profit on the sale of other freebies. Shouldn't some of that profit be used to give a non-cruel end to other freebies. Someone who takes free horses has no skin in the game- no risk. And can profit greatly if they can be flipped to show/riding homes. So what's so crazy about a little, just a measly "price of a bullet" bit of that profit making a non-cruel end for the ones who didn't turn out to be good flips?
    So you want somebody else to pick up the tab.
    Understood.

    However, giving a horse away is more economical than putting it down.

    and when you deal with more than one a year, you cannot just put a bullet in their heads either. Disposal of the body is not cheap, even if the bullet it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
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    GNU Terry Prachett


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  11. #151
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    Yeah, it is similar to other immoral things. Child labor? Pushing it, but similar to other LEGAL, BUT IMMORAL THINGS. Do you support puppy mills, dog fighting, run horses off cliffs for sport?

    Just because a business practice is legal, does not make it morally correct.
    Allagirl, follow a truck of horses bound for slaughter. Go and watch the entire ordeal, and then come back and say its OK for anyone to purposely do that for profit.
    I guarantee, your view would change.

    Till there is a way to make the process humane, I will continue to speak out against slaughter. And continue to view anyone who will knowingly and willingly subject a horse to that horror, and care only for profit, as human trash.

    It does not make it better, IMO for this guy,or any to be sort of upfront. Kinda like the guy on the street corner that has the sign that says "I won't lie, I need a beer".

    He's taking for free, and profiting on horrible ends. A decent, REALLY up front, honest guy would say " you should pay the vet to have this horse
    PTS, because its not saleable except as dog food".

    I get that many owners don't care, and I am not excusing them, but it doesn't make this guy or others any nicer
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


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  12. #152
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    I think the person who profits should pay overhead on the business. Is that a radical concept, really?

    I assume this guy has a good eye. If he just tries to make an effort not to buy ones that aren't resaleable, I think it'd be just a few that would have to be put down and that's not any more an unreasonable part of overhead than hay or grain.

    This is his business. He takes free product, "refurbishes," and resells. Why is it so unreasonable that the profits from the ones that resell cover the costs of the ones that don't. It's a business.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  13. #153
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    Using IPAD.
    Accidentally hit thumbs up Instead of thumbs down for Alagirls post
    With you totally vxf111
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    Using IPAD.
    Accidentally hit thumbs up Instead of thumbs down for Alagirls post
    With you totally vxf111

    we need an ROFLMAO icon.

    (I suggest you hop on your alter and fix this mistake ASAP!)

    I see you have found the RED thumb, well done.
    Last edited by Alagirl; Dec. 1, 2012 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I think the person who profits should pay overhead on the business. Is that a radical concept, really?

    I assume this guy has a good eye. If he just tries to make an effort not to buy ones that aren't resaleable, I think it'd be just a few that would have to be put down and that's not any more an unreasonable part of overhead than hay or grain.

    This is his business. He takes free product, "refurbishes," and resells. Why is it so unreasonable that the profits from the ones that resell cover the costs of the ones that don't. It's a business.
    Well, you don't like him making a profit, so I suggest you take his losses.

    No, wait...

    you want him to take the loss, after all, the profit marging on low grade horses is huge, after all.

    You don't like that the man might sell through channels you do not approve of.

    You don't know, do you, not for certain.

    You don't like it that he makes money off the horses....

    ok, the first time he throws them food he is investing money into them.
    In a very short time his profit margins shrink dramatically.

    it is a business like the one who sells show prospects. No different.

    And don't think for a second that the upper class dealer won't sell a horse down 'the slaughter pipeline' should there be a major flaw with the animal rendering it unsellable.


    ust because a business practice is legal, does not make it morally correct.
    Allagirl, follow a truck of horses bound for slaughter. Go and watch the entire ordeal, and then come back and say its OK for anyone to purposely do that for profit.
    I guarantee, your view would change.
    as to 'the ordeal'....
    why don't you follow it and document the horrors.
    while I am certain there is room for improvement, I don't believe it's as much of an 'ordeal' as certain groups have you believe.

    Since you seem to understand that it IS a business - the other business, slaughter - it does not make the least bit sense to damage the goods before you get to process them.
    why? you don't ask....
    well, because the plant loses money on it.

    Ah, evil people, they are making money off our horses that we never owned....


    oh well....

    The ordeal is likely no bigger for the horse than being trailered to any other place they have never been to, let's say a horse show. or with horses they don't know, say, a commercial transcontinental haul....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    Well, you don't like him making a profit, so I suggest you take his losses.

    No, wait...

    you want him to take the loss, after all, the profit marging on low grade horses is huge, after all.

    You don't like that the man might sell through channels you do not approve of.

    You don't know, do you, not for certain.

    You don't like it that he makes money off the horses....

    ok, the first time he throws them food he is investing money into them.
    In a very short time his profit margins shrink dramatically.

    it is a business like the one who sells show prospects. No different.

    And don't think for a second that the upper class dealer won't sell a horse down 'the slaughter pipeline' should there be a major flaw with the animal rendering it unsellable.




    as to 'the ordeal'....
    why don't you follow it and document the horrors.
    while I am certain there is room for improvement, I don't believe it's as much of an 'ordeal' as certain groups have you believe.

    Since you seem to understand that it IS a business - the other business, slaughter - it does not make the least bit sense to damage the goods before you get to process them.
    why? you don't ask....
    well, because the plant loses money on it.

    Ah, evil people, they are making money off our horses that we never owned....


    oh well....

    The ordeal is likely no bigger for the horse than being trailered to any other place they have never been to, let's say a horse show. or with horses they don't know, say, a commercial transcontinental haul....
    People have followed trailers bound for slaughter and documented it. Look up Animal Angels recent investigative reports, and video of the 2 horses that went down and were trampled with no intervention. This happened recently. When we had it here, Baker had the same thing happen several times, and has been fined 165k, yet he never paid them, and was never suspended. Look at 3 Angels Farms, who FINALLY after 2 horrific wrecks, has been suspended.
    Most individuals transporting non slaughter horses would stop and unload if a horse went down. They don't continue driving thru 3 states while the horse struggles and is trampled and finally dies.
    Hillary Clinton - proven liar, cheat, traitor and defender of rapists! Anyone but Hillary 2016! https://www.facebook.com/AntiHillary2016


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  17. #157
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    Alagirl, are you actually reading what I'm saying?

    I never said I had a problem with anyone making a profit turning over horses. I don't know this particular individual's profit margin, but given that he starts off with SCOTT FREE HORSES (and not skinny ones or ones that aren't riding age remember) I think he's probably got an extra $100/year he could set aside from profits to pay for bullets and shovels over the course of a year.

    If a business can't turn a profit in an ethical way, that doesn't excuse acting unethically. If you can't make money without dumping toxic waste, does that justify dumping toxic waste? Clearly not. If his profit margin is so low that he doesn't have $10 for a bullet, that's a problem with the business model but it doesn't justify unethical behavior. If the only way I can make my store profitable is to embezzle, does that make it ok? Or ethical? It's the only way my store will be profitable. So that must make it okay?

    I'm not naive enough to think the person who prompted the thread is the only one selling to the killers. I am well aware that others do, including purported show barns. But the fact that others act unethically is irrelevant. It doesn't excuse it. You know what your mother asked about jumping off bridges when everyone is doing it.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Alagirl, are you actually reading what I'm saying?

    I never said I had a problem with anyone making a profit turning over horses. I don't know this particular individual's profit margin, but given that he starts off with SCOTT FREE HORSES (and not skinny ones or ones that aren't riding age remember) I think he's probably got an extra $100/year he could set aside from profits to pay for bullets and shovels over the course of a year.

    If a business can't turn a profit in an ethical way, that doesn't excuse acting unethically. If you can't make money without dumping toxic waste, does that justify dumping toxic waste? Clearly not. If his profit margin is so low that he doesn't have $10 for a bullet, that's a problem with the business model but it doesn't justify unethical behavior. If the only way I can make my store profitable is to embezzle, does that make it ok? Or ethical? It's the only way my store will be profitable. So that must make it okay?

    I'm not naive enough to think the person who prompted the thread is the only one selling to the killers. I am well aware that others do, including purported show barns. But the fact that others act unethically is irrelevant. It doesn't excuse it. You know what your mother asked about jumping off bridges when everyone is doing it.
    you are not open to a serious discussion.
    You have had a made-up mind from the word go.

    If you consider something ethical is irrelevant..
    it is legal. That's all there is to it.

    And since you are also not party of the conversation this man has with customers on either side of the deal, you are a$$uming.

    what should I read?

    you ramblings on how bad the man is for making a profit?
    Hmm

    tough luck for you right there.
    Profit makes the world go round.
    More profit means more money for him to get more horses and feed them.

    Since apparently the other party does not want to do the feeding part anymore.

    I have read all your arguments time and time again, from your fingertips, or from the finger tips of others.
    They have not changed one bit, it's always the ZOMG THEY ARE MAKING A PROFIT
    like your farrier, your vet, your trainer, your BO, your tack store, etc...

    but the brokers in low-end horses must work for charity....
    Hypocrites.
    he deals in horses.
    so somebody may find a horse he/she likes.
    And for that business model to work, he has to get horses.

    So he puts an add in the paper.
    And he isn't exactly the scrap collector....
    or he gives people the incentive to part with their horses long before they turn unto some news head line.

    Your imagination is playing tricks on you. I am sure the rate of failure is much smaller than you like it to be. After all, a riding horse is worth more than a meat one - on hoof, anyway.

    Alas, i am wasting my time, because I know you are not reading my arguments either.

    So there.

    Oh, and I don't think it's about the welfare of the horses for any of you.
    just the vapors of righteous indignation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Bay View Post
    Try setting your broomstick to fly at a lower altitude.
    GNU Terry Prachett


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  19. #159
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    For someone that doesn't have any horses, you sure spend a lot of time arguing about horses on the internet Alagirl. You're right though, only you can comprehend the reality of owning horses.
    \"Non-violence never solved anything.\" C. Montgomery Burns



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  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by skykingismybaby1 View Post
    But this is all a guess, we have no idea whether he sells to the KB or not. He may well use a bullet on horses that he can't sell.

    We are all making up stories based on a CL posting that simply says he will take unwanted horses.
    Let's see:

    1. He does not want skinny horses or grey horses. The obvious reason is that neither will fetch him money from a true KB. The arguments in his favor have been: a) he doesn't take skinny horses because AC will get called on him and b) he doesn't take grey horses because it's too difficult to keep them clean. These could be good arguments if it weren't for the fact that if he were helping horses, regardless of whether AC had to come out or not, he would have a relationship with them and they would be well aware of his rehab endeavors. Additionally, people LOVE grey horses and if this guy wanted to make money, it would be worth his while to clean one up for a prospective buyer.

    2. He stated in an email that anyone who asks what happens to the horses that don't work out is a "shithead". Strong word for someone who is humanely putting down horses that don't work out.

    3. He doesn't own the property he lives on and runs his business out of. While I don't know the circumstances under which he rents or leases, it's a stretch to believe the terms include burial of horses he cannot sell.

    4. He can't come to this thread and help us understand, because he's been kicked off COTH not once, but twice.

    I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but in this case, the odds are stacked against him.
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