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  1. #41
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    Well, if somebody has an ad up like that, one has to be seriously in denial about their intentions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I just think they owe it to John Q Public to be upfront about what they do.
    John Q Public is an idiot. If I took the time to try to 'splain everything... wait it wouldn't really matter. He's already made up his mind and ain't no true facts gonna change that.

    Don't believe me? You must not have a Facebook account.


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I don't loathe flippers or resellers. I just think they owe it to John Q Public to be upfront about what they do. Notice what is omitted from the CL ad... the plan for these horses the poster is willing to collect. If he had a line in there indicating he was a flipper/dealer, I wouldn't have a problem. It's the omission that makes it a sleazy post, IMHO.

    And I am sorry, we all no what the "no gray" rule is for and it doesn't have to do with buyers seeing manure stains. Let's get real. Low end buyers that buy flipped horses of the type the poster is selling aren't expecting a braided A circuit horse to step out of the barn when they visit. It ain't about buying Quicksilver.... let's call a spade a spade if we're being real. Palaminos and horses with lots of high white/pintos get JUST as dirty and they're not on the poster's "no buy" list. So, let's not kid...
    And wouldn't if be nice if everyone who is selling a horse would not make the same kind of omissions.

    Where have you ever seen an ad, even from high end sellers, that said they were a dealer/flipper?

    At least this guy is not like Camelot where they buy the horse for $50 and sell it for $500 the next day. At least this guy will put some time into the horse to try and make it useful. Not as bad as some of you are making it out to be.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    I don't loathe flippers or resellers. I just think they owe it to John Q Public to be upfront about what they do. Notice what is omitted from the CL ad... the plan for these horses the poster is willing to collect. If he had a line in there indicating he was a flipper/dealer, I wouldn't have a problem. It's the omission that makes it a sleazy post, IMHO.

    And I am sorry, we all no what the "no gray" rule is for and it doesn't have to do with buyers seeing manure stains. Let's get real. Low end buyers that buy flipped horses of the type the poster is selling aren't expecting a braided A circuit horse to step out of the barn when they visit. It ain't about buying Quicksilver.... let's call a spade a spade if we're being real. Palaminos and horses with lots of high white/pintos get JUST as dirty and they're not on the poster's "no buy" list. So, let's not kid...
    This.

    Let's not delude ourselves, here...
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmartAlex View Post
    John Q Public is an idiot. If I took the time to try to 'splain everything... wait it wouldn't really matter. He's already made up his mind and ain't no true facts gonna change that.

    Don't believe me? You must not have a Facebook account.
    I don't have facebook. Because, yes, John Q Public is an idiot. Which is why I think a little disclosure is appropriate/ethical under this circumstances. if John Q Public still doesn't understand, oh well... but at least there wasn't an omission at play. That's why I said earlier-- there's lies and then there's omissions. There's no falsity in the post but there's a big old WHOPPING omission that, if included, would key a lot (not all, but plenty) of horse owners in that they weren't interested in what the poster is offering after all.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacksmom View Post
    http://winchester.craigslist.org/grq/3438122386.html

    Grabbed the copy in case of deletion.

    This is just scary.

    <start ad>
    The Horse You Do Not Want (Northern, Va.)

    Date: 2012-11-27, 11:48AM EST
    Reply to this post zhsdj-3438122386@sale.craigslist.org

    If you have a horse to give away, we will probably come get it. No strings attached. Will NOT take anything less than 4 yrs old. Will not take anything very skinny. Will not take grey horses. Please provide a telephone number and brief description of the horse/horses when responding. Please do not respond if you expect to retain control of the horse after giving it away. Judging by the responses there are a lot of people in your position, please be patient.
    <end ad>
    I agree that if a seller were to call on this ad they would have to be in denial to ignore the rather clear attitude:

    I may take a horse off your hands if it meets my requirements.
    It will become my property to do with as I choose; you will have no say in it's future.
    I am not blowing sunshine up your a$$ suggesting it will live forever in a beautiful field of grass and butterflies; I just may want your horse to do with as I see fit.

    He doesn't even say anything about "looking to buy", "saving", etc. He is looking for "The Horse You Do Not Want".

    Why do some think they should be even more clear, as if they owe it to the seller/giver a hand-holding walkthrough of every possible end result of their taking ownership?

    The type that responds to this ad without asking questions isn't the type that really cares about where "Flicka" goes; and the tone of the ad suggests that the ad poster doesn't really want to deal with the questioning type anyway.

    The responsibility is that of the owner; not the party posting the ad.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    The type that responds to this ad without asking questions isn't the type that really cares about where "Flicka" goes; and the tone of the ad suggests that the ad poster doesn't really want to deal with the questioning type anyway.

    The responsibility is that of the owner; not the party posting the ad.
    Yup. There are still people in the world who regard horses as livestock. Not show stock. Not athletes. Not pets. Not spiritual beings. And, honestly, there are a lot of horses that act that way. The rogues. The potential rogues. The dumb as a rock. The Fugly. The borderline feral.

    There always has been, and always will be people making their living dealing with this population of human and horse. It might not fit into everyone's ethics or view of the world, but it's legal and generally humane.


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  8. #48
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    Shocking but I can name offhand at least 10 people I know who are sort of backyardy horse types, love their horses and would be horrified to learn what happens at New Holland on Mondays... and yet truly and honestly HAVE NO IDEA THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS. And therefore would never, ever think someone taking a free horse would have end sights on their horse ending up in the pipeline. For better or worse, basic horse people are sometimes very sheltered about what happens.

    Basic pet owners are pretty sheltered about bunching. I worked in an animal research lab. Those were people's cat's and dogs. Pets. People are ignorant about puppy mills. People don't know the Amish breed cats specifically for animal research.

    I'm endlessly surprised by what people DON'T know. And disgusted by people who prey upon that lack of knowledge.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    Why does he need to disclose a full business plan in a CL ad? If a potential owner needs to know, they can ask. But it sounds like Tim (and his business model) is quite well known in his area. So, while to those of us that are far away might be scratching our heads, locals probably get it.

    If people don't ask questions, that's on them. If they ask and don't like the answers, or don't trust them, they aren't obligated to sign over their horses. Period. End of story.

    I hate slaughter as much as anyone, but this doesn't seem like a business model that it's worth our time lambasting. He's actually doing some real good here and finding horses in craptastic situations and then giving them a second chance. If they don't all make it, well, some will and that's better odds than they would have had otherwise. Frankly, I'd trust an honest dealer more than a lot of other sellers.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Mother Theresa with a stock trailer??

    If John Q Public has no problem with what he's doing and he has such a sterling local reputation... why NOT BE EXPLICIT ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING IN THE AD? Or use his name? He is, after all, a man of much local glory and adoration apparently.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #51
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    I think the challenge with it is that we're stuck in this weird world where horses are not quite pets and they are not quite livestock. Certainly if he had posted the same thing about cattle, very few people would notice and/or care.

    I've been fooled a time or two in the past by people who played the "he'll be my personal horse" crap - and this was for a horse who had a decent price tag. 3 months later the horse was for sale for twice what she bought him for (I would have bought him back, but there's no way she increased his value by that in that amount of time - he was already a nice horse). The only thing I was frustrated by was the fact that I got taken. Last I heard - he has a good place, which he should - he was a really good horse.

    So one doesn't have to be aghasted by it to say "he's a dealer potentially with some that go to the meatman", but rather more practical. I wish more people were confronted by those practicalities because pretending that it's not there increases the likelihood of us not understanding the cycle and voting or advocating for things uninformed.

    I had "real" trainers tell me that the best thing for a problem horse that I had was either a bullet between the ears or a sale down the road. They weren't awful people - they were practical people - the horse had no useful purpose (and he really didn't).

    Saying that someone isn't a saint doesn't necessarily equate to saying that they are evil. *shrug*


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  12. #52
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    Jun. 16, 2001
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    How about this one in Cali

    http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv...389926224.html

    We Adopt Rescue Unwanted Farm Animals (Santa Clarita)


    Times are hard and if you find yourself unable to care for your farm animals, we would like to help.
    We have done rescues,saved many animals by buying them form Slaughterhouse and they have found their FOREVER Home on our Small Ranch!
    We have seen animals starving,sick and want to share our home with the once that in need of home!
    We tend to our animals,feed alfalfa,fruits and vegetables.
    We have over and acre lot just for our animals to free roam.
    Currently our Ranch is a home to Emus,Turkeys,Chickens,POt Belly Pigs.....we can pick up locally or you are welcome to stop by and visit us. Due to limited space ,we are unable to take Horses,Lamas or Cattle but we do have other rescues that would be able to take them,email us what you have with your contact information, we will forward it to the rescue that's able to help ..
    Please reply to this add with your information and we will reply back (818) six 91-233zero



    An acre is s pretty small lot when you include the house so I am sure they have quite a bit of turnover in their rescued animals.

    My little voice is telling me that the adopters probably are on a first name basis with the local butcher.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


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  13. #53
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    I don't loathe flippers or resellers. I just think they owe it to John Q Public to be upfront about what they do. Notice what is omitted from the CL ad... the plan for these horses the poster is willing to collect. If he had a line in there indicating he was a flipper/dealer, I wouldn't have a problem. It's the omission that makes it a sleazy post, IMHO.
    Honestly? This type of opinion scares me. So it's on the low end buyer/dealer to TELL the person dumping the horse for next to nothing or nothing what they intend for the horse. And it's NOT up to the person dumping the (usually problem) horse to ask the buyer??? "What are the plans for this horse?" takes less time to say than it took me to type it. Do you think John Q Public ever tells the buyer/dealer what issues the horse has? No onus on them? Ask how many animals I took in that the previous was truthful about. Maybe 10%. "Oh he's sound!" "Wow, she's NEVER done that before!" "Oh he's great on trails alone!" "Safe for anyone to ride, we just can't afford her any more." "That horse has never spooked!"

    Those comments are as common as "well, I need this much for the horse for all I put into it!" And just as believable, LOL!

    believe me, take it from someone who's gone to countless homes looking at prospects...the dumpers are most often a lot worse than the dealers. And they almost ALL know it's a dealer of some type picking it up. They just want to whine about the "I thought it was a forever home" because they know damned well they dropped the ball on that animal, took crappy care of it and didn't want to take it to auction themselves. IOW, they want to pass the buck. The sellers are usually a hella lot more sleazy than the flippers. They're just pretending they aren't. Put your own ad up...go look at dozens of horses people call you about. Do it yourself and report back what you see and who you meet. You don't have to take the horses. But research it yourself instead of going on a few sensationalized and dramatic online stories. (people don't often post the whole truth online...why shine the bad light on their own bad behavior?)

    If you haven't done this for a living...you're handing out an unfounded opinion. You're taking the same unfounded high ground the horse dumper does, without merit.

    [QUOTE]And I am sorry, we all no what the "no gray" rule is for and it doesn't have to do with buyers seeing manure stains. Let's get real. Low end buyers that buy flipped horses of the type the poster is selling aren't expecting a braided A circuit horse to step out of the barn when they visit. It ain't about buying Quicksilver.... let's call a spade a spade if we're being real. Palaminos and horses with lots of high white/pintos get JUST as dirty and they're not on the poster's "no buy" list. So, let's not kid... [QUOTE]

    You get more for a palomino than a grey and the palomino won't come covered in lumps. Greys that people are willing to give to a stranger for free are 80% of the time so covered in melanomas that that's why the owner is willing to dump it. Give the problem away or get a few bucks for it instead of expensive vet treatment. VERY common. Please stop assuming these ads are answered by sweet caring innocent polly-annas. "Oh, that's just warts" "my vet said those are benign/no problem."

    And I've taken in free horses and sold them for a lot higher than low end. And turned them out nicely for showing to buyers. This is my point on the general public loathing dealers..."low end mean liars screwing over innocent people and selling cheapo horses they keep dirty."

    No, I'm not kidding and I am being real. I've done this. Most of the people I knew/close friends did or still do this for a living or for extra income or just to help out the horses idiots dump after they stopped caring for them or about them.

    And if my non-working parts improve...I plan on going back to it. That was the main reason for selling our home and buying a small horse property. Planned on going back to flipping. Still do. Gonna be one of those sleazy liars that help horses without adoption contracts. Please go to the bother of getting to know some of the low end meanie pants before labelling us all as fibbers who really hate horses and want to kill them all after stealing them from loving Horsie Parents. Walk the walk before telling us we're not talking the talk. You gotta learn the language first.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    19 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    Shocking but I can name offhand at least 10 people I know who are sort of backyardy horse types, love their horses and would be horrified to learn what happens at New Holland on Mondays... and yet truly and honestly HAVE NO IDEA THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS.<snip> I'm endlessly surprised by what people DON'T know. And disgusted by people who prey upon that lack of knowledge.
    I'm in total agreement. Our last broodmare was picked out of the "as is" pen at New Holland. When her former owner was contacted she was horrified. "But just a month ago I traded her at a dealer who said he had a vet looking for this sort of horse. I had no idea that New Holland or Meat Dealers even existed".

    Sometimes it seems like we need counselors and disclosure forms to sign... someone to sit down with the seller, gently take their hand, look them deep and the eyes and say "Honey, do you know what is about to happen to your horse?"


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated View Post
    Honestly, at least he's pretty up front.

    Having dealt repeatedly with the fallout from people promising "oh I'm going to give him a great home and keep him forever!" then having horses show up at New Holland or other bad places - I'm glad he's not making any false promises.

    Just had another couple horses this week. Old owner gave them to a nice young couple "looking for a couple trail horses" Saw one at NH this week, the other is at some sale barn in VA. When old owner called the "nice couple" she was told they were still there and doing "great"

    Nice.

    It's funny, I used to try to be objective about the slaughter market and stuff, but it seems like (around here anyway), horses end up there by and large through shady, dishonest people like the "nice couple" above. We find out about situations like this ALL the time. And from what the ad said, it's at least obvious that the guy is looking to trade/sell or take to auction. Do I like that? Not particularly, but I think it's better than all the asshat "sunshine and roses" liars out there that are duping people into reducing prices or even giving away nice horses with their happy stories of endless days of trail riding or needing a horse for their darling child (who they bring with them for added effect)
    *shudder* That's absolutely horrible, and then to lie they still have the horses on top of it?! If something happens to me financially and I can no longer keep my horse I plan to have her euthed instead of trying to rehome. She's good weight but she's older and unsound to ride, definitely not chancing her taking a one-way trip to the slaughterhouse.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


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  16. #56
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    I don't absolve the dumper of responsibility... I think both parties have some. But who is in the best position to know the intended outcome in this scenario-- the flipper/dealer. As I mentioned previously, you'd be SHOCKED what seemingly normal animal owning people JUST DON'T know about how the world works. The dealer knows. So he ought to be up-front.

    I don't have a problem with dealers/flippers. I really don't. But call a spade a spade, is all. Say why you don't want grays-- make it clear you're flipping/reselling. That's all.

    If the title of the ad was "I take free horses and resell them or take them to New Holland and sell to anyone including the meatman if I can't resell them on the open market," I'd have no issue with the posting. It's the ambiguity about where these horses or going and why that I find smacks of dishonestly.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
    This.

    Let's not delude ourselves, here...
    Agreed.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonoverMississippi View Post
    I agree that if a seller were to call on this ad they would have to be in denial to ignore the rather clear attitude:

    I may take a horse off your hands if it meets my requirements.
    It will become my property to do with as I choose; you will have no say in it's future.
    I am not blowing sunshine up your a$$ suggesting it will live forever in a beautiful field of grass and butterflies; I just may want your horse to do with as I see fit.

    He doesn't even say anything about "looking to buy", "saving", etc. He is looking for "The Horse You Do Not Want".

    Why do some think they should be even more clear, as if they owe it to the seller/giver a hand-holding walkthrough of every possible end result of their taking ownership?

    The type that responds to this ad without asking questions isn't the type that really cares about where "Flicka" goes; and the tone of the ad suggests that the ad poster doesn't really want to deal with the questioning type anyway.

    The responsibility is that of the owner; not the party posting the ad.
    While to you or I the tone of the ad is pretty clear as to the intent, there are going to be oblivious people out there that may sincerely want to do right by their horse but can't afford to anymore, and aren't aware that it is a real possibility their horse could wind up at auction or slaughter if it goes to someone like this. I know people that ride and aren't aware that American horses still get slaughtered, and no, I am not kidding. If even one hopeless horse gets euthed instead of sold to slaughter by the disclaimer it's a possibility, I'm happy.
    *Wendy* 4.17.73 - 12.20.05


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #59
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    But see, even talking about it here is really useful to people, I'm sure. There are lots of things that happen in this world that we *don't* talk about, and I'm not sure that's the right answer.

    It's like we want to pretend that we're these perfect, morally clean, black and white believing people. When the reality is that REALITY is much more complex than that. Living on this planet is much more complex than that. And we have to talk about it in order to understand what is going on.

    At first we may be horrified...then we start to understand...then we start to accept.

    When I found out about what happened at slaughterhouses for normal food animals, I was aghasted (at first). And then I thought about it. And I read good articles like this one http://fieldquestions.com/2012/11/26...overs-dilemma/ and I met people in Ag and talked to them...even the most grizzled cattle dealer in the area LOVED his steers. He just realized that without people eating meat, there are no steers.

    Horses are the same way. When I first thought about slaughter, dealers and whatnot...I was horrified. And then I got more experience in the horse world, and understood rogue horses, and the sales cycle for the horse, and I started to accept it, even if I still didn't prefer it. I also used to be judgmental about horsekeeping facilities and what was proper etc, and then I realized I was hurting my sport by keeping people out of it due to financial constraints.

    It's my dream that kids can have ponies, and that we can get a healthy horse economic system back in place. Now I'm babbling and probably off topic, sorry!


    7 members found this post helpful.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    why NOT BE EXPLICIT ABOUT WHAT HE'S DOING IN THE AD? Or use his name? He is, after all, a man of much local glory and adoration apparently.
    I, for one, don't ever put my name in a CL ad.

    Look, it's obvious that you don't like the ad. That's ok. Don't send him a horse. But for some people, it might be the only option between a bullet or a cold, hungry winter. I'd love it if every horse had a snug, warm barn with fluffy blankets and endless gorgeous hay. But that's Jen-land and not reality. Is Tim likely an angel, doubtful. But is he giving some horses a chance at a better life, sounds like it from his neighbors posts above. So why don't you just call him and complain about the wording of the ad and move on?
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    4 members found this post helpful.

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