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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    This is the norm for Arabian, saddlebred and Morgan barns for horses competing at the regional or national level. Most barns want their clients coming out once a week to lesson, sometimes twice a week. Often times clients come out to lesson once or twice a week on school horses to work on their riding skills. Some people (especially equitation riders) own a practice horse that is not kept in training and they ride every day. If it is not your cup of tea no need to talk negatively about it. Very few amateurs who work full time jobs have the skills and/or time to train and condition a regional or national level Arabian, Morgan or Saddlebred, and that is the service these barns provide.
    it's a difference between being busy and not being able to ride every day and being told not to ride the horse one owns.
    Most disciplines offer the training and legging up part as service.

    And I don't think it is a bad thing when an absentee owner is being told which horse of the string he can ride.

    But (and here I probably disagree with the H/J crowd) I have read plenty of examples where the owner happily relinquished control of horse and pocket book to the trainer, even down to what I can only call as micro management.

    if it floats your boat, that's fine.
    But be honest enough about it and question the motives to make sure it is for the right reasons.

    it's no different IMHO from the trainer, regardless of discipline, who pushes a client into buying a horse the client is unable to ride on the best day, just so trainer has something to ride and show.

    yes, people do like the idea of owning horses. It makes the industry go round, after all, whee would our top riders gt their mounts if not for those individuals!
    But in many instances it's borderline unethical.

    You can't fathom not doing it this way, I can't fathom going along with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  2. #42
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    I am familiar with, (and board and train at one) 3 Arabian/Half Arabian Barns who show all the way to the National level. None of these barns restrict owners riding their own horses unless the horse is green or truly dangerous for the riders skill level. In fact, I have seen greenie owners encouraged to ride even if it meant being led around on their young horse.

    There are also owners, some from out of state who do prefer to have their horse trained and then love to come and watch their horse perform at the highest levels. Whether or not they have what some may call a close "relationship" with their horse, the trainers and other people at the barn certainly fill the void. The horse gets plenty of handling and interaction with it's handlers.

    There are some owners who have their horses trained and then want to hop on for the ammy classes. This is how they enjoy their horses. Again, the horse gets plenty of handling and interaction with it's handlers.

    Some are riders (like me) who don't feel like they ride well enough to compete at those levels and so we hire others to do it. I really enjoyed watching my horse place at Nationals, especially knowing that I didn't have the skill to handle her at that level of competition.
    Last edited by HeartsongHorses; Nov. 27, 2012 at 12:46 PM. Reason: spelling


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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    it's a difference between being busy and not being able to ride every day and being told not to ride the horse one owns.
    Most disciplines offer the training and legging up part as service.
    Yeah I think this is what got me. I started a thread this weekend about being busy and not having the time I'd like to ride. If I could afford full training board at the barn I'm at, lord knows I would do it in a heartbeat.

    It was something about the culture of the Morgan barns I visited that surprised me. I can't say it is wrong or bad, because I truly know nothing about it beyond what investigating I did in regard to my own horse. The way the program was presented to me was just... odd. At least, to me. It seemed strange to put a horse in training (and as another poster said, many of these horses are in training for years and years) with no real goal for the rider/horse combo beyond maybe sit on it for a few classes at a show a couple times a year?

    To each is own.... My aunt had three arabs in full training for years, two were halter horses... I know how much joy it brought her to watch them win, and I know the trainer took very good care of them. Just for me, not my cup of tea. (then again, if I had unlimited funds, maybe it would be, LOL)
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    But be honest enough about it and question the motives to make sure it is for the right reasons.
    it's no different IMHO from the trainer, regardless of discipline, who pushes a client into buying a horse the client is unable to ride on the best day, just so trainer has something to ride and show.

    yes, people do like the idea of owning horses. It makes the industry go round, after all, whee would our top riders gt their mounts if not for those individuals!
    But in many instances it's borderline unethical.

    You can't fathom not doing it this way, I can't fathom going along with it.
    What is there to question? The trainer is providing a service. How is it unethical for a trainer to ride/train my horse when I may or may not want to? He's being paid to reach a goal; putting my sorry butt on that horse does not help him reach that goal.

    I only know of a few cases where owners weren't "allowed" to ride their horses. In those instances, it was a top level horse, and putting the owner on it between shows makes absolutely zero sense. I know another trainer who just Does.Not.Do.Amatuers. Period. Any horse in his barn is ridden by staff only. It's part of the deal. Again, how is it unethical?

    I really don't get all the angst here. It's my choice and it doesn't affect anyone else one way or the other.

    Frankly, I have never been able to wrap my head around the whole traveling trainer thing that is prevalent here. The idea that a trainer would take responsibilty for an outcome, while having so little control over the situation confounds me.


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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    What is there to question? The trainer is providing a service. How is it unethical for a trainer to ride/train my horse when I may or may not want to? He's being paid to reach a goal; putting my sorry butt on that horse does not help him reach that goal.

    I only know of a few cases where owners weren't "allowed" to ride their horses. In those instances, it was a top level horse, and putting the owner on it between shows makes absolutely zero sense. I know another trainer who just Does.Not.Do.Amatuers. Period. Any horse in his barn is ridden by staff only. It's part of the deal. Again, how is it unethical?

    I really don't get all the angst here. It's my choice and it doesn't affect anyone else one way or the other.

    Frankly, I have never been able to wrap my head around the whole traveling trainer thing that is prevalent here. The idea that a trainer would take responsibilty for an outcome, while having so little control over the situation confounds me.
    is it his goal your yours?

    That means: If you have come to the conclusion that you are on board with the program, more power to you.

    If you realize that you are footing the bill to keep trainer in horses, well, you can make up your mind if you are ok with that and proceed from there.

    Just because it is 'the culture' of the discipline does not mean the owners are not taken advantage of.
    Some people like being taken advantage of, fine by me.

    But it is not ok to get all mad when somebody questions the setup.

    As you said.
    It is your choice.
    I just think people should make educate choices.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  6. #46
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    I do think it is easier for abuse to occur when no one (owner / trainer / staff) has an emotional attachment to the horse - and the horse is seen as a way of garnering ribbons, cash prizes and status.

    Same goes for handing over total and complete control (and daily observation) of an animal to someone who stands to gain financially from it.


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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    I do think it is easier for abuse to occur when no one (owner / trainer / staff) has an emotional attachment to the horse - and the horse is seen as a way of garnering ribbons, cash prizes and status.

    Same goes for handing over total and complete control (and daily observation) of an animal to someone who stands to gain financially from it.
    excellent observation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    If you realize that you are footing the bill to keep trainer in horses, well, you can make up your mind if you are ok with that and proceed from there.

    Just because it is 'the culture' of the discipline does not mean the owners are not taken advantage of.
    Some people like being taken advantage of, fine by me.
    You write it like anyone who does this clearly has to be clueless to the fact that they are being used, which I would guess is not the case at all.

    Footing the bill to keep the trainer in horses could mean spending your money to be the proud owner of fancy horses that your trainer is doing a lovely job with while you get to be walk around being the happy owner.

    Just because you would never want to do that does not mean others are only doing it because they are too dumb to see that they are clearly doing it all wrong.

    If I was rich I would for sure do that (not at breed shows at the hunter shows). I much prefer watching my horse show than showing my horse.


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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by cu.at.x View Post
    I would never put up with that bullshit.
    That was really uncalled for. If it's not for you, then fine. There are plenty of BNTs in the ASB/Hackney/Morgan/Arab world who use this model and it works for them, their clients win and are happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    This is the norm for Arabian, saddlebred and Morgan barns for horses competing at the regional or national level. Most barns want their clients coming out once a week to lesson, sometimes twice a week. Often times clients come out to lesson once or twice a week on school horses to work on their riding skills. Some people (especially equitation riders) own a practice horse that is not kept in training and they ride every day. If it is not your cup of tea no need to talk negatively about it. Very few amateurs who work full time jobs have the skills and/or time to train and condition a regional or national level Arabian, Morgan or Saddlebred, and that is the service these barns provide.
    This is my experience when I was in the ASB world as well. When my horse was in training I got 2 lessons a week included in training. My trainer worked my horse the other 4 days and I rode my horse at my lesson.

    It ended up not being what I was ultimately looking for in my riding life so I made a change. But that does not mean it's wrong or BS.
    Dreaming in Color


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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    You write it like anyone who does this clearly has to be clueless to the fact that they are being used, which I would guess is not the case at all.

    Footing the bill to keep the trainer in horses could mean spending your money to be the proud owner of fancy horses that your trainer is doing a lovely job with while you get to be walk around being the happy owner.

    Just because you would never want to do that does not mean others are only doing it because they are too dumb to see that they are clearly doing it all wrong.

    If I was rich I would for sure do that (not at breed shows at the hunter shows). I much prefer watching my horse show than showing my horse.
    Well said.


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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by trubandloki View Post
    You write it like anyone who does this clearly has to be clueless to the fact that they are being used, which I would guess is not the case at all.

    Footing the bill to keep the trainer in horses could mean spending your money to be the proud owner of fancy horses that your trainer is doing a lovely job with while you get to be walk around being the happy owner.

    Just because you would never want to do that does not mean others are only doing it because they are too dumb to see that they are clearly doing it all wrong.

    If I was rich I would for sure do that (not at breed shows at the hunter shows). I much prefer watching my horse show than showing my horse.
    If you are enter into an arrangement like this eyes wide open, more power to you. The point you missed.

    It's no different from people owning race horses, I am sure the trainers would not entertain the idea of letting the owners on.

    However, the horse thrives under the supervision of the owner. A lesson I learned when i was a wee one, when a TB trainer did not care for the horse as well as he should have. Or later when access to the horse she owned was hugely restricted by barn hour for a family friend. The horse ended up being completely ruined, to the point that the lady quit riding and parked the animal with another professional (who also had a dubious way of doing things)

    But it always serves you well to examine things periodically, to see if it still serves the purpose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  12. #52
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    Just popping in to say, I think one of the reasons so many ASB/Arab owners keep their horses "out of state"/far away is that there are so FEW good ASB/Arab show barns in many areas of the country! So I think some of it is a function of "take what you can get."
    I live in MD, and, to my knowledge, there is not a single ASB show barn here that could take a horse to the national level (I would love if someone would correct me). If I had an ASB I wanted to show successfully, I think the closest barn to me would be western PA (the Wentzes) or central/northern NJ (Revelation, Smoke Hollow, Nealia) -- each at least a four or five hour drive. Were I that invested in showing, I would certainly do that.

    Also, this is not exclusively an "ASB/Arab/funny looking saddleseat horses why do they DO that" phenomenon. Although this is dangerously approaching the representative heuristic fallacy, a fairly significant percentage of the H/J trainers I have known have restricted clients from riding their own horses. I think, also, that this is not a "one-way street" where a mean, bad, greedy trainer is taking advantage of a poor, innocent client. Clients know what they are getting into before entering into this type of relationship, and, as others have noted on this thread, many are perfectly happy with it.

    I have never owned that level of ASB, but rode with two BNT ASB trainers in my salad days. Neither restricted clients from riding their own horses, but there were some restrictions on driving, simply for safety and ring space. Many clients rarely ride their own horses but often ride 'practice' horses or lesson horses, as well (this is still a bizarre occurrence I do not fully understand, having never had a "practice car" to drive on weekdays, or a "practice boat" to learn how to sail ).

    Anyway, I am mostly reiterating what others have said, but I like the sound of my own voice, too


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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by red mares View Post
    I hate trail riding and hacking. It has zero appeal to me. Shoveling horse manure has even less appeal. I have the relationship that I desire with my horses. It may not be the relationship you want, but it works for me. I have gotten quite a bit of enjoyment out of seeing my horse go from nothing to something (& back to nothing, but that's another story ) Even with my horse turned out, I enjoy going to the barn and just watching horses work. I always have.

    I'm a freak, I would rather have my trainer show my horse in an Open class, than for him to dull it down to country pleasure so I could ride it. Besides a rider does not a trainer make.
    And there we have it folks. There is a market for this full service. Lets not be judgmental.
    Dreaming in Color


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  14. #54
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    l didnt read all the posts, but i dont see how its different than owning a show dog, where you let the pros show your dig. you are in it to pay the bills and pride of ownership. Its also like owning an olympic mount, few owners actually ride their own horse.
    And i have had both Arab and hunter trainers restrict my riding while they were installing something on my horses. they didnt want be confusing the horses.


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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmgncolor View Post
    And there we have it folks. There is a market for this full service. Lets not be judgmental.
    You are correct, I am currently trying to buy a horse that is in this arrangement. The owner has always had him in full training, has never ridden him and does not attend shows. Until he sellsm she wants him to be marketed for the next AQHA World Show. She enjoys hearing about him and pays for him to have top notch care and training. Her husband is making her sell him and she does not want to because she loves him. I was surprised to hear this since she never interacts with him but everyone has their own idea of horse ownership and the love that goes with it.


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  16. #56
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    Well... answering the OP's question and share my perspective as an ASB owner in a breed barn, my trainer doesn't restrict my access, I CHOOSE to pay $$$ for him to fine-tune and develop my youngish horse. Why would I shell out $$$ per month for training if I'm doing all the work (ie--putting the majority of the rides/training sessions on the horse)?

    And, I don't think it would be fair to the horse to perform in a demanding training session in the morning only to have me show up in the afternoon to double the workload. Occasionsionally, it would be fine, but not as a regular practice.

    Actually, I have one in full training AND one that I take full responsiblity for w/occational coaching from trainer. So, I see things from both perspectives.

    With both horses, I complete at A-rated, national shows and we've tied to top ribbons during the past season. I have neither the time nor the knowledge to keep the younger horse performing at that level on my own. I can, however ride that horse. The one I maintain myself is older, knows his job, and is a little easier for me to keep in working order. The do-it-yourself model is without question not the norm in the ASB world.

    Conversely, I wouldn't want to relinquish MY control over the training regimin of the horse I take primary responsiblity for to allow someone to pleasure ride or practice their riding during the competition season.

    It's all about fine-tuning and I wouldn't want anyone else to disturb the regimin that I've laid out--unless I could be VERY perscriptive about what and how. Everytime you interact with a horse you are training it--perhaps ineffectivly or not to the result you desire, but you are definitely training.

    As others have expressed, I also take a lesson per week on a lesson horse.

    Something else to keep in mind--as least for ss ASBs, we generally don't ride our horses every training session like some other disciplines. We do a lot of jogging (driving) and long-lining. So, you could have a horse that only has a saddle on it's back a couple of times per week. It's just the mindset--not sure why it's done that way.

    So, there's one more perspective FWIW.


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  17. #57
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    After handing the reins to a trainer for a few months to tune up a new horse I bought I thought "gee... I could get used to this!"

    But no, ultimately I want to be involved....should I have unlimited money and less interest in dressage sure, being an owner to watch the horse being shown would be awesome!

    when my horse did great in some big classes at his first show I was just as proud as if I had ridden... and much less stressed so I enjoyed it a lot more, too!



  18. #58
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    I've only read a couple of the posts, so I won't go into too much detail.

    But, I don't think it's right for people to be judgmental about this type of training/boarding situation. It works for certain people, so who cares.

    Personally I would prefer not to do it... but I have a country pleasure ASB that does not have to be worked every single day in order to be rideable. So I can keep him at home. I'm sure if I had a horse showing on the national circuit then I would put it in training just because I would not be able to keep up with the training. But I'll likely never own a horse like that. I love being an AOTR. The satisfaction I get from working my horse and showing on my own in between trainers and training clients in the Saddlebred show world is just great.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/NBChoice http://nbchoice.blogspot.com/
    The New Banner's Choice- 1994 ASB Mare
    Dennis The Menace Too- 1999 ASB Gelding
    Dreamacres Sublime- 2008 ASB Gelding


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  19. #59
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    I prefer to be the athlete, along with my horse. However I can understand the pride in having a horse that I am not athletic enough to keep tuned up, being that I'm over 50, have a full time job and other responsibilities.

    Very much the racehorse model.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible



  20. #60
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    One thing that is important to point out about Saddlebred training, and also Arabian and Morgan training as many of those trainers follow the same traditions, these horses, once broke, are only ridden once or twice a week. The other days they are long lined or jogged (driven). So sure, the amateur owner my only be riding the horse once a week, but once a week of riding may be the best training regimen for the horse. That is why you are paying a professional who can determine how to maximize your horse's performance.


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