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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cu.at.x View Post
    I would never put up with that bullshit.
    Lol, I love how everyone is so opinionated about this statement!
    I saw the angel in the marble and I set him free. - Michaelangelo


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  2. #62
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    First, can I just say that I think this is the first time I've started a thread that went to 4 pages and didn't fall off into oblivion!?! I'm so excited!

    Next, let me apologize for being rude in my 2nd post. I went off on a bit of an unrelated tangent.

    And, while I'm at it, let me clarify that I'm talking about a situation where an amateur WANTS to ride and show their own horse but is being told no. If an owner CHOOSES to take a sideline role, I see that as totally different. Those of you who pointed out that some owners prefer to leave the showing and riding to pros for various reasons are absolutely right and I stand corrected there, there's room in the industry for all kinds. (Oh, and while the racehorse example is good, it's apples and oranges...people get into owning racehorses usually to make money or because they like to go to the races, not because they want to be a jockey).

    I can even "sort of" see the point where a pro says to an ammy, "Hey, if you ride this horse, it won't be national champion, but if you back off and let me do it, we may be able to win." And if the ammy agrees, I see no harm/no foul there. Where I do see a foul is wanting to ride my own horse, that I specifically put into training to keep ready/ridable by ME, and being told no, that I could ride in my weekly lesson and then if I wanted to ride more purchase a lesson package on another horse. Which is why I walked.

    So, I thought, humpfh, no biggie, I'll go to another barn. Except I find that most/all breed barns operate this same way. So that leaves me scratching my head wondering what to do next. I have a nice half-arab that I want to show. I'm willing to pay to keep it in training and work so when I ride he's good to go. This services has always been available at the hunter/jumper/eventing/dressage barns I've been to, but in this land, it's not an option. My choices are to keep the horse at home and do it all myself, or resign myself to being a sidelined owner.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I should also state that this rant of mine was prompted by an e-mail blast I recieved from a Gene Lacroix who was/is searching for ways to bring new lifeblood to the arabian horse industry. I do still stand by my comment that if the industry is only interested that one specific type of owner who is willing to pay substantial money for the trainer to ride and show the horse, then they must resign themselves to the lackluster show attendance they currently have (...if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got...).

    I've paid a trainer to take my jumper in a class before I do to get him over the scary stuff. I've paid a trainer to work through issues I wasn't quite capable of working through on my own. I've paid trainers/instructors to teach me new skills when I've wanted to try or learn new things. I totally understand paying a professional for their opinion and services. I know in the h/j world there are all levels, from the backyard do-it-yourselfers to those who prefer to have their horse handed to them and then carted away by a groom. But I've just never heard of being told you're not allowed to ride. Mine was not a situation where I bought an uber-fancy horse with visions of national titles, but rather an ammy-friendly horse to ride and show myself. So, no, I don't get the restrictions and micro-managing. Judging by the revolving door of clients, I'm not the only one who feels this way.

    I'm still not sure what direction to go. I don't have time to do this solo, hence wanting a trainer in the first place. I like the horse and the breed and the people I've met. I really, really would like to have this horse in a training situation and be able to show at the breed shows when it suits me, and ride when it suits me but apparently this is "just not done." Wish I'd figured that out before I became an owner of such a breed!

    So anyway, I want to be part of the solution and not the problem. I know of several other disgruntled arabian owning cast-offs. I'm thinking of seeing if I can drum up some sponsors for the local circuit that offers an arabian/half-arabian class. That will give me a local outlet for showing that I might be able to manage even as a do-it-myselfer.


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  3. #63
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    I think if you would try posting what you are looking for trainer wise at Arabian Breeders Network you might get some leads. (www.arabianbreeders.net)

    And that "a Gene LaCroix" that you got the email from....well, do some googling to see what he was up to in the 1980s. Lasma Arabians - fabulous horses, highly influential, but let's just say that him wanting to find new ways to bring new lifeblood to the breed is highly highly ironic since many consider that he and his colleagues had a lot to do with where we are now.


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  4. #64
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    (Oh, and while the racehorse example is good, it's apples and oranges...people get into owning racehorses usually to make money or because they like to go to the races, not because they want to be a jockey).
    well, no, they enter ownership for the thrill it gives you owning a race horse. Money is probably secondary, because you don't really make money owning race horses.

    But it is a bit frustrating to be in the position you are in.
    I guess you just have to go back to Dressage
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  5. #65
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    I guess you can think of it like this as a jumer rider. You want to be very competitive in the jumper world and being the owner of the horse and getting more ribbons is more important to you then doing the work and only getting some ribbons. So you buy the very best horse that your trainer can find. Hickstead.

    Could you stay on Hickstead? Maybe if he were in full training. Maybe.

    Many of the people in that world simply buy horses that are very talented and very very hot. If they want to win in the top classes they need to have action and atttidue that would leave most ammys on the ground. They don't have the skill or the time to develop the skill. So the arrangement works well for them. Your trainer wouldn't want you to ruin Hickstead and at the same time expect him to perform at the top of his level. You wouldn't want to ruin him either.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    You want to be very competitive in the jumper world and being the owner of the horse and getting more ribbons is more important to you then doing the work and only getting some ribbons. So you buy the very best horse that your trainer can find. Hickstead.

    Could you stay on Hickstead? Maybe if he were in full training. Maybe.

    Many of the people in that world simply buy horses that are very talented and very very hot. If they want to win in the top classes they need to have action and atttidue that would leave most ammys on the ground. They don't have the skill or the time to develop the skill. So the arrangement works well for them. Your trainer wouldn't want you to ruin Hickstead and at the same time expect him to perform at the top of his level. You wouldn't want to ruin him either.
    Totally agree and see your point, but I didn't buy Hickstead. I bought an ammy friendly horse (incidentally, the "totally ammy friendly horse" that these trainers hand-picked for me, after I told them my small, humble, conservative goals. This horse has carted around kids and 60+ year olds. He can pack my sorry meaty ogre (mediocre) behind no problem. Absolutely no reason I couldn't ride him whenever I felt like it. I just want to pay somebody to do the clipping and bathing and load him up and take him to the show for me, and keep him exercised when I can't make it to the barn. I'm happy to pay for their training and help and whatever other silly fees they come up with at the shows. All I want is to come down whenever I want (during reasonable barn hours) and ride my own horse. Does that make me crazy? I'm starting to wonder...


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  7. #67
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    And yes, alagirl, I guess that does leave me with the option of a dressage barn!

    Thought about eventing (those folks will take anyone! ) but my silly "former" saddleseat horse can't be bothered to put his head down to negotiate his way over a pole on the ground...I'm not pointing him at a jump any time soon!

    I'll figure it out. I'm just genuinely flabergasted that this is the "way it is" here. If I had any time or aspirations to do so, I think there's a huge niche that could be filled here!



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by meaty ogre View Post
    Totally agree and see your point, but I didn't buy Hickstead. I bought an ammy friendly horse (incidentally, the "totally ammy friendly horse" that these trainers hand-picked for me, after I told them my small, humble, conservative goals. This horse has carted around kids and 60+ year olds. He can pack my sorry meaty ogre (mediocre) behind no problem. Absolutely no reason I couldn't ride him whenever I felt like it. I just want to pay somebody to do the clipping and bathing and load him up and take him to the show for me, and keep him exercised when I can't make it to the barn. I'm happy to pay for their training and help and whatever other silly fees they come up with at the shows. All I want is to come down whenever I want (during reasonable barn hours) and ride my own horse. Does that make me crazy? I'm starting to wonder...
    I know several Saddlebred and Morgan barns that offer this type of service. You pay board. You are responsible for training and exercising your horse. You lesson with the trainer. When you go to shows you stable with the barn and pay the day care fee and the barn's staff handles all of the dirty work at the show. But this is a different service than having a horse in full training. It's boarding your horse with a "support team" (versus just boarding at an all breed barn with no support for what you are doing). This type of arrangement is semi-common in the Saddlebred world as you can still qualify as an amateur-owner-trainer if you take lessons on your horse with a professional (but you can not if your horse is trained even once a week or month by the professional).



  9. #69
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    The barn I left was somewhat like that. Very micro managed. They told you when the horse was going to be clipped, shod, what kind of feed and how much, when they were staying in overnight etc. The instructor also wanted to show other owners horses for them with the owner paying all the bills. She would also "help" students buy mounts that would overhorse them and then have them in training forever. We left there and now I make the decisions for my horse.
    Anyway each to their own but no I would never have my horse at a barn where I could not ride her.


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  10. #70
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    Dare1, can I ask was that a specific breed (i.e., arabian, saddlebred, QH, etc) barn, or was it a specific discipline, or open to all breeds/disciplines? Just curious...Thanks!



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by enjoytheride View Post
    I guess you can think of it like this as a jumer rider. You want to be very competitive in the jumper world and being the owner of the horse and getting more ribbons is more important to you then doing the work and only getting some ribbons. So you buy the very best horse that your trainer can find. Hickstead.

    Could you stay on Hickstead? Maybe if he were in full training. Maybe.

    Many of the people in that world simply buy horses that are very talented and very very hot. If they want to win in the top classes they need to have action and atttidue that would leave most ammys on the ground. They don't have the skill or the time to develop the skill. So the arrangement works well for them. Your trainer wouldn't want you to ruin Hickstead and at the same time expect him to perform at the top of his level. You wouldn't want to ruin him either.
    I think he is not too bad to stay on these days....
    smart-a$$ remark aside, it is NOT about the pro rides, but the ami horses.

    And no, I would be upset if the trainer found me a Hickstead type horse I could not ride - assuming I was requesting help in the search for a horse I can ride, on my own, without hand holding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by meaty ogre View Post
    Totally agree and see your point, but I didn't buy Hickstead. I bought an ammy friendly horse (incidentally, the "totally ammy friendly horse" that these trainers hand-picked for me, after I told them my small, humble, conservative goals. This horse has carted around kids and 60+ year olds. He can pack my sorry meaty ogre (mediocre) behind no problem. Absolutely no reason I couldn't ride him whenever I felt like it. I just want to pay somebody to do the clipping and bathing and load him up and take him to the show for me, and keep him exercised when I can't make it to the barn. I'm happy to pay for their training and help and whatever other silly fees they come up with at the shows. All I want is to come down whenever I want (during reasonable barn hours) and ride my own horse. Does that make me crazy? I'm starting to wonder...
    well, if you have to wonder, you must be plum crazy!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  13. #73
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    ASB owner here. BTDT with the trainer thing. If it floats your boat fine. BUT do not ever say you LOVE your horses, and I mean love. You don't, you can't. It's impossible. If you do then you have a very F-d up version of love going on.


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  14. #74
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    Meaty--there are breed barns that don't operate that way.

    I had my yearling in training at a mostly Arabian (and Morab) barn where the more participation the better! However, the typical goal was to have a good horse/rider relationship, not necessarily winning all the classes. It was whatever goals the rider wanted, not adding to the laurels of the trainer.

    I had a lot of fun and even when my trainer couldn't go with me to my big show (schedule conflict, she had another major show), she coached both my horse and I, loaned me a couple show halters since I didn't own a tiny one, packed my trailer full of everything and made sure I was as comfortable as I could be before we had to part ways. And she called me as soon as I was done with my classes to make sure we survived. Truly a "coach"" kind of relationship versus just a trainer/horse relationship.

    There are those types of breed barns out there. Just keep looking or find a few similar friends and create your own ammy corner in a barn.

    I found the shows I went to, the Arabian folks were very friendly and nice. Even if I didn't always agree with whatever classes or what not, they seemed very kind to me and the ring staff went above and beyond to help me with my disability.


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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by vixen View Post
    Just popping in to say, I think one of the reasons so many ASB/Arab owners keep their horses "out of state"/far away is that there are so FEW good ASB/Arab show barns in many areas of the country! So I think some of it is a function of "take what you can get."
    This is a VERY good point. When I lived in northern New England, I was at the same local H/J barn as a kid who kept 2 horses locally and 1 at Hunterdon, and flew down to Hunterdon once a week for a lesson w/ GM. Nowadays the saddle seat kids do the same thing, fly in from all over the USA to lesson with Lillian Shively. But I bet most, if not all, either have practice horses at home or also ride with a local trainer as well as at Delovely.

    Another factor I was always told as a kid is that, just as it's axiomatic a hunter horse has a finite limit of good jumps in it, a performance Saddlebred has a finite number of slow gaits and racks. So you keep your practice horse or ride lesson horses to reduce the wear and tear on your show horse. That always made good sense to me.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by meaty ogre View Post
    Dare1, can I ask was that a specific breed (i.e., arabian, saddlebred, QH, etc) barn, or was it a specific discipline, or open to all breeds/disciplines? Just curious...Thanks!
    It was a h/j barn. Way too many rules and mare was very uptight and antsy there. Now at our barn she is out at least 12 hours in winter and 24 hours in summer and she is much more relaxed.

    It was open to any breed and had a huge lesson program. After about a year of lessons students were pushed into horse ownership and that is when the micromanaging started.

    Unfortunately even though we left after being there for 8 years and left on good terms we were bad mouthed by our trainer and other boarders. This happened to pretty much everyone who left their program.



  17. #77
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    OP Keep looking. There are ammy friendly Arabian barns out there. I have close ties with 3 of them. Good luck.


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  18. #78
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    MO, I do think/hope there is an Arab barn out there for you. Isn't there an Arab Sporthorse faction booming now too?

    Beyond my confuzzled-ness with the programs at the breed show barns I looked into, the Morgan community in general was AMAZINGLY nice. Like, so kind and helpful. I was really impressed by the people, how welcoming they were to me as a newbie, and their passion for the breed.

    The two barns I looked at did show on a National level and perhaps that is why the program is structured as it is. I did notice recently that one of the barns (which does both ASBs and Morgans) has taken on a Classical Dressage trainer, and they are doing some cross-training, so maybe the tide is turning.

    This thread has been enlightening.... glad so many with firsthand experience chimed in.
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.


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  19. #79
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    Flash, I'm new to the arab breed scene, but what I've gleaned over the past 1+ year is that many are disgruntled with the "main ring" and are jumping ship for the sport horse ring. It does appear that the sport horse divisions are more "amateur friendly" in that do-it-yourselfers are well represented there. That's where I'm leaning, for many reasons. But I would still like to have a training or conditioning program without relinquishing all control of my horse. It is positively puzzling for me coming from my background, but I'm learning from this thread that there are reasons for it and it's just a culture I'm going to have to learn to negotiate if I want to play in their sandbox. Sadly I think the arab barn options in the area are pretty entrenched in the "old" way of doing things and are not quite interested in change, although the winds are blowing as client base in dwindling, and I do think the arab barns here are struggling to fill so they soon may be willing to entertain some of these changes.

    I do agree, I've met some really great people. Which is part of the reason I really do want to try to make this work so I can continue to go to the shows and hang out and be a part of the horse world with them. But I just can't do it in the way these barns demand.

    I guess I'm going to have to find some way to squeeze a few more hours out of my own day so I can keep my horse fit and show ready without help! ... that was an hommage to your "making it work" thread... it sure is tough!


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  20. #80
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    And you are coming from endurance, no? So you are probably very used to legging up your own horse, etc. I've never had a horse "in" a program, never been able to afford it, so I've always had to do the behind the scenes work myself. I know getting used to the culture at the H/J barn where I work took some time, as even that has a level of trainer involvement I am not used to. So yeah the Morgan barns were a total shock to me as well.

    And, girlfriend, I wish we lived near each other... we could swap kid duty to give each of us a little more riding time!!
    We couldn't all be cowboys, so some of us are clowns.



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