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  1. #21
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    May. 25, 2003
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    It's just all about the money....whenever you combine big $$$ and horses = there'll be hi-jinks, craziness, and big business culture. The sad part is that it DOES make $$.
    Horses + big money = problems for the horse!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  2. #22
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    Oct. 11, 2007
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    Andover, MA
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    Personally, I wouldn't do it. But there are people who enjoy watching their horses win under a well-known trainer... especially in the breed rings. And in both dressage and H/J we hear allllll the time about trainers who encourage their clients to buy horses that are beyond the clients' skill level, and then the trainer takes over the ride on an often very high quality horse that the trainer could not afford to buy. It's a passive-aggressive version of the same thing.

    That said... some years ago, I put my mare in full training because, well, as a pair we were a mess. I was afraid to ride her. Coincidentally, about a week after I put her into training (and after riding her twice in very brief lessons), I had my bad wreck (different horse, different location) and couldn't ride at all for about 6-8 weeks. My mare really blossomed during that time when she was only ridden by an expert, and because I was hurt, when I did start riding her I had to ease back into things very slowly (e.g. started with several weeks of getting on her after the pro was done to walk her and cool her out.) But this was a temporary and very accidental arrangement!
    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

    Proudly owned by Mythic Feronia, 1998 Morgan mare; G-dspeed Trump & Minnie; welcome 2014 Morgan filly MtnTop FlyWithMeJosephine



  3. #23
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    Mar. 24, 2010
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    I think there's a big difference between owners choosing to have this sort of situation (which they are welcome to if that's what they prefer - and it's great for the pros, too, I'm sure!) and trainers making every student feel as if they don't get to ride.

    I'm glad my breed show experiences weren't like that! Locally I only know of one trainer who limits riding by clients and that's in mostly APHA showing. In that case, I believe the "training" put on by the trainer won't withstand rides by someone else because it's not sound training. I suspect that's the situation in many cases. A distant owner who enjoys having the horses and has a good relationship with a trainer who cares for them is welcome to learn only to sit on the horse and pose - but a trainer who is forcing codependency on clients and intentionally not teaching them to be competent in their own right should be fired. Same situation from the outside, perhaps, but very different from the inside.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #24
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    I have a couple of students who bit off quite a lot of horse to chew and came to me for help after it became evident they needed it.

    I do suggest that they limit their interaction with the horse to what I specifiy, i.e., stick with groundwork for now, ride but only aafter the groundwork goes well and stick to the walk, etc.

    I don't own them and they can obviously ignore my advice completely if they so choose but basically the Facts of the Situation (which I don't tell them, it is just kind of how it obviously is) mean that
    1.) they can get rid of the horse
    2.) they can keep the horse and ignore me and go backwards
    3.) they can keep the horse and listen to me and things will get progressively, if incrementally, better each week.

    They are more than happy to listen because when they do so, things go well and they can see progressive improvement as they are able to do more and more with the horse and have more and more success. It is better to be successful at the walk with more confidence at the end of the ride than to get scared trying to do more.

    So yes, I do restrict some of the riding but really at this point in time it is for the best for all concerned. They don't want to sell the horse and they will be able to learn how to ride it as long as they listen and take the time, and that's fine with everyone.

    It is funny because I am the least likely trainer to try to tell a client they aren't allowed to ride their horse. I try to get them on the horse as soon as possible, but sometimes that means you'll be walking and doing simple exercises a while. I find that building the ride gradually like this and really dotting each i and crossing each t is actually quite confidence building for both human and the horse. But you have to listen and when I say, "Just walk and practice x and so" it means, JUST walk and practice x and so.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Nov. 7, 2002
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    Central FL
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    I have personally not experienced it, but yes ... I've heard of it, but as I understand the situation it was because of farm access, not training requirements, at one hunter/jumper barn and two dressage facilities.

    I think international riders are thanking the folks who are willing to be "grandstand" owners. If I had a couple extra million, I'd be happy to support the top level of my chosen sport by helping a fabulous rider have fabulous horses
    *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
    Dressage becomes art when it is a joy for the horse. -KBH

    Mighty Thoroughbred Clique Now on Facebook ... ... show the loff


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Oct. 9, 2007
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    Central NJ
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    I used to own trotting racehorses and this sounds like that kind of ownership.

    I would never think of riding or handling my racehorses, that was completely up to the trainer. I had no "bond" with them, but what a thrill to see them go!

    I do have a riding horse that I ride 5-6 times a week, and my dressage trainer would never think about restricting my riding time.



  7. #27
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    Feb. 3, 2000
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    Nokesville, VA
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    It is a different business model. and/or a different cmpetition model.

    If you had a horse in training at a racetrack, you wouldn't expect to show up and ride it.

    If you had a horse competing at the Grand Prix/Advanced level in an FEI discipline with a trainer, you wouldn't expect to show up and ride it. If the horse was in training for YOU to RIDE, then you would expect expect to show up and ride on a regular basis.

    It seems the Arabian world falls somewhere in between.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    May. 1, 2006
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    When I was involved with ASB's and showing, that was the norm. You rode in a lesson on your horse once a week, and on a schoolhorse in another lesson once a week.

    This was one of the many reasons that I now don't show ASB's in breed shows. I wanted to putter with my boy, go trail riding, camping, do something besides go around in a big circle at a couple of different gaits, if we even went in a circle. There were some lessons that we just went back and forth on the long wall for ten minutes. I wanted something more from my horse, I, also, wanted more for my horse, to have turnout, healthy feet, and a herd. So... sold one and packed the other one up one month and have never looked back, except for the thought of how much money I wasted, and how much happier and healthier my guy is not in a training barn... sigh... hindsight is always 20/20.


    eta- there were folks that were very happy with this arrangement, so... and this barn was somewhat competitive, certainly not Kentucky Fair competitive, but local shows we did fairly well. Although, there were certainly some AOTR's that kicked our derrieres.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    Lorena, Texas
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    This thread is interesting to me! I've never had enough $$ to have one of my horses in full-time, long-term training (had one with a trainer for a month or two as a teenager). BUT I grew up around ASBs, Morgans, and Arabs - worked for an awful ASB trainer and a decent Arab/ASB/Morgan trainer (they mostly showed local shows). That was the norm there and at all the barns I knew of: the owners only rode their horses under the supervision of the trainer in lessons. Those horses normally stayed 'in training' for years - their entire show career really. I was surprised to learn that's not the norm across breeds/disciplines!

    It wouldn't have been for me. I admittedly don't get to show anymore, but I have happily trained my own horses. Maybe they're not Nationals contenders, but I took HUGE satisfaction in the training time I've put in when they did well at shows (when I still got to show).

    To each their own, though. Some people want to WIN and that's the way for them to do it. It has been going on for years and years in some breeds, so it isn't a new thing. Some people prefer the ability to interact with/ride/know their own horse. Fortunately there's a variety of situations out there for people!
    Visit us at Bluebonnet Equine Humane Society - www.bluebonnetequine.org

    Want to get involved in rescue or start your own? Check out How to Start a Horse Rescue - www.howtostartarescue.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Feb. 21, 2007
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    VA
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    I, too, don't see how this is any different than the racing industry.
    "We need a pinned ears icon." -MysticOakRanch


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Apr. 29, 2011
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    Maryland
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    What I find the most interesting (baffling - but not judging!) are h/j riders who only ride their horses at shows. Compete and go home. Horse goes with trainer back to training barn and is schooled/ridden by trainers until the next show.
    Barn rat for life

    The Big Horse


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    Oct. 26, 2007
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    San Jose, Ca
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    I have a friend in a APHA (western pleasure, “HUS”) barn that operates like this. The barn is 5 hours away. She is welcome to come out for a lesson twice a month. Otherwise, its show up to the shows, and hop on after the horse has been warmed up and prepped – oh and be sure to write the checks.

    I could NEVER operate like this. I just enjoy being around my horse – managing her care – grooming her – and yes, riding her! I have been in full training, and always did the vast majority of riding myself. Trainer might hop on my horse once or twice a week for very short rides.

    Right now I have a 5 year old that no one but myself has ever ridden – I just can’t imagine owning a horse, and handing over the reins and just writing checks. It is bizarre to me.

    Seems like it is ALL about showing – and very little to do with building a relationship with – and just enjoying the horse.

    (said friend also went through 3 horses in one year – until she found one that consistently takes home the blues)


    2 members found this post helpful.

  13. #33
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    Mar. 4, 2010
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    Having been involved with the Arab world in the 1980s, then taking a break to raise my sons, and now marginally involved - it's not the trainer environment per se that's turning people off to the Arab show world. It's the positioning of the Arabian as a business investment or rich person's play toy that has steadily eroded the number of people showing.

    In the 1980s it was still possible to keep your horse at home, train it yourself, shoe it reasonably, and still compete successfully at class A shows, even Regionals or Nationals. In the late 1980s that all started to go out the window - and it was kind of deliberate. I can still remember the show manager of the Buckeye (big prestigious Arab show in Ohio) quoted in Arabian Horse World that they really didn't care about do it yourselfers showing there and they wouldn't cater to it. According to him, there were plenty of other shows that DIY folks could go to - the Buckeye was for the upper crust. I paraphrase, of course, but the tone and intent has stuck with me all these years, especially as the number of folks willing and able to foot the bill for this level of competition has steadily decreased.

    Going to a class A show in Florida earlier this year where the opening announcement for each session was which classes were cancelled (most of them) and which had entries (2 or 3 per class) was a jaw dropping experience.

    If it weren't for the sport horse division, which has robust participation, I think AHA would be in even deeper doo doo than they are now.

    I don't think it's a coincidence that all high maintenance, trainer centered breed shows (Arabian, Morgan, Saddlebred) have a poor turnout at local shows these days. People a) can't afford it; b) want to have fun with their horses and do lots of different things with them; and c) are more sensitive to what is a healthy life style for a horse. I can't think of one saddle seat barn in my area that hasn't had to change their business model to account for people's changing attitudes.

    End of history lesson, but to answer the OP's original question - what you see is typical for a shrinking number of Arab people. It's both a symptom and a cause of what's undermining the popularity of the breed. There are a fair number of folks like me who love their Arabs but completely reject this model.

    ETA: My dressage trainer and regular clinician both see it as a positive that I do the vast majority of the riding/training of my horse myself. We might be going slower - but when we get it, we get it. I am really pleased that we have been able to figure out so much ourselves. I'm in it for the journey!
    Last edited by oldernewbie; Nov. 27, 2012 at 11:37 AM. Reason: Another thought


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Aug. 10, 2008
    Location
    Statesboro, GA
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    Unfortunately, this is common in the horse industries where horses are shown as a group, the morgans, saddlebreds, arabians, etc. I don't know about AQHA, APHA or Pintos. As a person who 'grew up' in the Arabian show world, I hate hate hate what has been done to our horses. We still have and show Arab cross breds in sport horse, dressage, hunter/jumper. 25 - 30 years ago it was rare for a person not to keep their 'show horse' at home, do pasture turn out, be the trainer, and have a lesson every so often. But now, to show with any hope of placing on the Regional or National level, you have to be with a trainer and things are so intricate that the average rider can't even maintain a show horse. Our dressage horses go out and are treated like horses, not china dolls.

    I would not allow students to jump unsupervised, when I ran my own barn, due to safety issues. I didn't have to be in the ring coaching, but I did have to be on the farm and sort of keep an eye out for the rider.


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  15. #35
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    Mar. 24, 2010
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    I think I speak for most of the thread in saying that's a situation I don't think even compares, and I hope most trainers would be that responsible when an owner buys the wrong horse for themselves. My trainer has unintentionally somewhat specialized in helping folks who buy totally inappropriate horses while with other trainers and get hurt or scared, but don't want to sell the horse. She has the patience of a saint for her willingness to work through so many problems with her clients - and from what I've seen of you I suspect you do as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    I have a couple of students who bit off quite a lot of horse to chew and came to me for help after it became evident they needed it.

    I do suggest that they limit their interaction with the horse to what I specifiy, i.e., stick with groundwork for now, ride but only aafter the groundwork goes well and stick to the walk, etc.

    I don't own them and they can obviously ignore my advice completely if they so choose but basically the Facts of the Situation (which I don't tell them, it is just kind of how it obviously is) mean that
    1.) they can get rid of the horse
    2.) they can keep the horse and ignore me and go backwards
    3.) they can keep the horse and listen to me and things will get progressively, if incrementally, better each week.

    They are more than happy to listen because when they do so, things go well and they can see progressive improvement as they are able to do more and more with the horse and have more and more success. It is better to be successful at the walk with more confidence at the end of the ride than to get scared trying to do more.

    So yes, I do restrict some of the riding but really at this point in time it is for the best for all concerned. They don't want to sell the horse and they will be able to learn how to ride it as long as they listen and take the time, and that's fine with everyone.

    It is funny because I am the least likely trainer to try to tell a client they aren't allowed to ride their horse. I try to get them on the horse as soon as possible, but sometimes that means you'll be walking and doing simple exercises a while. I find that building the ride gradually like this and really dotting each i and crossing each t is actually quite confidence building for both human and the horse. But you have to listen and when I say, "Just walk and practice x and so" it means, JUST walk and practice x and so.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
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    Michigan
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    Quote Originally Posted by skykingismybaby1 View Post
    I used to own trotting racehorses and this sounds like that kind of ownership.
    I was thinking the same thing, not that much different than owning a racehorse. I wouldn't mind that kind of ownership with thoroughbreds, I suppose it's not different for some show owners, be it GP jumpers or Arabian halter horses.

    At least they want to own horses and pay money into the horse industry.


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  17. #37
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    Oct. 14, 2010
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    It's always been the norm for me, I grew up with ASBs & Arabs, (saddleseat type), and my father was the control freak trainer you all complain about before he got married.

    When I was young & doing the AOT thing, I aspired to have job where I could afford to have a horse with a trainer. I have found that ASB peeps are much less judgemental about this than say, sportier type owners. Last winter I said something, like "I could do something useful here..." The 20 something who was riding & rubbing horses, replied "Why? you're paying for this" There was no negativity or envy, just a statement of fact.

    I hate trail riding and hacking. It has zero appeal to me. Shoveling horse manure has even less appeal. I have the relationship that I desire with my horses. It may not be the relationship you want, but it works for me. I have gotten quite a bit of enjoyment out of seeing my horse go from nothing to something (& back to nothing, but that's another story ) Even with my horse turned out, I enjoy going to the barn and just watching horses work. I always have.

    I'm a freak, I would rather have my trainer show my horse in an Open class, than for him to dull it down to country pleasure so I could ride it. Besides a rider does not a trainer make.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  18. #38
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    to answer the OP - NO. and i am in full training. I ride my guy 99.9% of the time - or rarely does my trainer ask to sit on him - and that is always because there is an issue i am not able to work thru.

    my trainers *does* stipulate how often my guy needs to be worked if i want to get to where my goals state.... he also sets up our program etc... that is after all his job.



  19. #39
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    It is a different business model. and/or a different cmpetition model.

    If you had a horse in training at a racetrack, you wouldn't expect to show up and ride it.

    If you had a horse competing at the Grand Prix/Advanced level in an FEI discipline with a trainer, you wouldn't expect to show up and ride it. If the horse was in training for YOU to RIDE, then you would expect expect to show up and ride on a regular basis.

    It seems the Arabian world falls somewhere in between.
    Given that these absentee owners do ride/show from time to time, does that mean that it doesn't take a whole lot of skill, fitness or feel to ride them?

    I have seen this in the USEF hunters, too: Trainer does the warm up, puts the rider on and says "Just don't Do anything." But I think these riders do ride more and practice more at home.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  20. #40
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    Feb. 9, 2011
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    IE SoCal
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renae View Post
    This is the norm for Arabian, saddlebred and Morgan barns for horses competing at the regional or national level. Most barns want their clients coming out once a week to lesson, sometimes twice a week. Often times clients come out to lesson once or twice a week on school horses to work on their riding skills. Some people (especially equitation riders) own a practice horse that is not kept in training and they ride every day. If it is not your cup of tea no need to talk negatively about it. Very few amateurs who work full time jobs have the skills and/or time to train and condition a regional or national level Arabian, Morgan or Saddlebred, and that is the service these barns provide.

    ^this, exactly.

    Not everyone gets into horses for the exact same reason or wants the exact same things out of their relationship with their horses.

    For a lot of people owning a nice show horse is much like owning a nice racehorse. They don't need to be very hands-on to get enjoyment from horse ownership. And of course there are jerks that see the horse as sports equipment, but there are more that love their horses and want the best for them, they just don't want to be as involved as the DIY owner. Maybe fear issues, maybe physical issues, honesty about their skill level relative to their goals...maybe they just like it better that way.

    It's not something to get all judgey and superior over, it's just a different way.


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