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  1. #61
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    2012 Holsteiner Dutch Selle Francais
    2011 Dutch Holsteiner Selle Francais
    2010 Dutch Holsteiner Selle Francais
    2009 Dutch Selle Francais Holsteiner
    2008 Dutch Westfalen Holsteiner
    2007 Dutch Selle Francais Hannoverian
    2006 Dutch Westfalen Holsteiner
    2005 Dutch Holsteiner Hannoverian
    2004 Dutch Selle Francais Hannoverian

    So, for 8 out of the 9 years listed in the WBFSH rankings for jumper studbooks the WBFSH was drinking the Dutch KoolAid and finally, this year, got it straight???? For 2 of those 9 years the Holsteiners weren't even in the top 3. So Tim, why are your panties in such a twist about this. I think any studbook in the top 3, or even 5, is pretty good.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    Please don't insult "Holsteiner dudes" by assuming Reece is representative of anyone except his PUTB self. The (then) head of the Holsteiner Verband was actually instrumental in my choice of Cunningham for my TB mare. Questions of approval or registration never came up. It was all about finding the best stallion for my mare given my goals.
    Damn fish ........I thought you had me on ignore ? I see you just can't stand it and keep coming back for more. Let me give you a little more shall I ?

    It doesn't take the former head of the Holsteiner Verband to suggest to you that you use a Cassini / Contender son on your TB mare. That same suggestion came without seeing or knowing a damn thing about your TB mare. He was patronizing you with the most generic / elementary of suggestions.

    Maybe if you had more breeding experience than 4 foals you may have realized this. Come on back.........I got more. Better yet , please put me back on ignore.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donella View Post
    Tim, re GOV : a mare still has to be approved and clearly their standards are going to be different than other registries as they have a certain vision/breeding goals ect. Edgewood isn't saying that you can just bring any mare out there and breed it to any stallion...there is an approval process and I am sure acceptable and non acceptable populations. But they don't have the 50 percent rule if I am understanding things correctly?

    I am sorry I openend my mouth for demanding a higher standard. SO why is it exactly we wonder why the buying public floods to Germany and Holland for their sport horses?

    The good thing is you don't have to register your horses with GOV, you can do whatever it is you like. The breeding policy that you are so offended by is the one producing horses that these people are flooding to Germany to buy. GOV's breeding policy wasn't invented in NA.

    Anyways, I didn't start this thread to argue about which registry is the best ect ect. I agree with some of what you are saying, I don't know that I totally agree with the breeding policy taken by the GOV as described above. But at the end of the day a good horse is a good horse. There are many very talented GOV dressage horses out there...so clearly whatever they are doing is working alright. Same goes for KWPN.

    Donella,

    My comments to you were not about best breeds or any of that. It was about being a good breeder. It is not possible to know every breed as well as those that focus on only one. You chose to step out of the Hannoverian pool and swim in others. I personnaly thinks this distracts you from breeding good Hannoverians. Knowing how to be a good Hannoverian breeder will make you garner more knowledge about your mares, and THAT will make you a better breeder. Breeding to what ever flavor of the day stallion comes along will not. Hannover has many great stallions, or at least ones approved by them. I am sure you can find one good enought to breed your mares too. If you get a good daughter from the breeding you will then be able to look to other Hannoverian mares by the same stallion to see how they breed. If you breed to a stallion outside the book, you will have garnered Zero knowledge. I think this would be a loss.


    Tim

    P.S. this is how the famous Capitol/Caletto II cross was discovered and then implemented.
    Last edited by RyTimMick; Nov. 28, 2012 at 10:52 PM.
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    This is is why I said what I said, and this is why I asked. I don't care which studbook you all think is the best. It doesn't matter to me. If you make the comment above about your studbook, then I am left to believe there are no standards.

    The reason people flock to Europe is because most German breeders are breeding with Knowledge of their horses. They have been breeding with the same family of mares for their entire lives. They have seen hundreds of horses from those mares and decades of generations. When you go to the top breeders in the world, they don't have mares from different breeds on their farms. Most have just 1 or 2 motherlines. Thats it. Many farms I go to will have 4 generations on the farm living and breathing. Many breeders here haven't even seen the dam of their mare let alone siblings. Those same breeders are going to tell me that the need for flexibility will allow them to pick the best stallion. I ask, how could they possibly known that? They can't.

    Unless you are breeding with as much knowledge as the breeders in Europe, you are just guessing. Just one of my mares I have seen her dam, picture of her grandam all 6 of her siblings, and 3 foals from her sisters. This doesn't even count other horses from her stamm. I have seen in person the sires of most of her siblings in person, and the full brother of her sire. I have also seen at least 10 others with Holsteiners with the same broodmare sire. I am only just beginning to learn about my mare, let alone who the "Best" stallion for her would be. If I were to go outside of her studbook with stallions that have never bred mares with her pedigree I would be guessing. German breeders do not breed this way, and neither will I.

    So again, I don't care what studbook you choose, but breeding with multiple ones makes it impossible to know enough about each to breed better then those who are masters of their breed. I was suggesting you master one instead falling prey to being jack of many.

    Tim

    P.S. All WB's approve sires from outside of their book, but in Germany they demand that they are presented and approved before allowing them to be used in their studbook. Consul, Caletto, Calypso, Landgraf, Lord, Liostro, Colonel, and Corrado are no less Holsteiner becuase they are by Holsteiner approved outcross stallions. They all are Holsteiners, and out of Holsteiner mares. No breeder in Holstein goes to Oldenburg or Holland to buy their mares and have them approved for breeding in their book. Holland, RPSI, Zangersheide etc do this all the time. They are paper registries not breeds.
    You know, I can't believe I'm going to rise to the bait; I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions, but as a dues paying member of AHHA I am so sick of this type of thing! Tim, if you have such comtempt for "paper registries" that allow "outside" mares in, then why do you want to be affiliated with AHHA? I read your bio, the one that went out with the ballots for electing the AHHA board of directors and breeding committee. I get that you are a knowledgable, passionate guy, especially about Holsteiners and the Holsteiner mare lines. But why then be involved with AHHA? They let tons of "outside" mares in and I would venture a guess that if not for outside mares they would cease to exist, as the Verband eligible Holsteiner mare base in this country is tiny. But I can't believe that you would come here and criticize GOV breeding rules, when the GOV here in the U.S. has reciprocity with the GOV in Germany, while AHHA certainly does not have reciprocity with the Holsteiner Verband.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
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    www.HillsideHRanch.com


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #65
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    Gosh, Tim. The breeder of Blue Loyd stepped outside the registry when he put his SF mare to an Oldenburg stallion. The breeder of Totilas stepped outside the registry by putting a KWPN mare to a Trakehner stallion. And there are plenty of other examples out there of successful horses created by using stallions outside the mare's registry.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
    You know, I can't believe I'm going to rise to the bait; I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions, but as a dues paying member of AHHA I am so sick of this type of thing! Tim, if you have such comtempt for "paper registries" that allow "outside" mares in, then why do you want to be affiliated with AHHA? I read your bio, the one that went out with the ballots for electing the AHHA board of directors and breeding committee. I get that you are a knowledgable, passionate guy, especially about Holsteiners and the Holsteiner mare lines. But why then be involved with AHHA? They let tons of "outside" mares in and I would venture a guess that if not for outside mares they would cease to exist, as the Verband eligible Holsteiner mare base in this country is tiny. But I can't believe that you would come here and criticize GOV breeding rules, when the GOV here in the U.S. has reciprocity with the GOV in Germany, while AHHA certainly does not have reciprocity with the Holsteiner Verband.

    This!!! Why would you run for office in the AHHA with so much contempt for 90% of the dues paying members?
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
    You know, I can't believe I'm going to rise to the bait; I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions, but as a dues paying member of AHHA I am so sick of this type of thing! Tim, if you have such comtempt for "paper registries" that allow "outside" mares in, then why do you want to be affiliated with AHHA? I read your bio, the one that went out with the ballots for electing the AHHA board of directors and breeding committee. I get that you are a knowledgable, passionate guy, especially about Holsteiners and the Holsteiner mare lines. But why then be involved with AHHA? They let tons of "outside" mares in and I would venture a guess that if not for outside mares they would cease to exist, as the Verband eligible Holsteiner mare base in this country is tiny. But I can't believe that you would come here and criticize GOV breeding rules, when the GOV here in the U.S. has reciprocity with the GOV in Germany, while AHHA certainly does not have reciprocity with the Holsteiner Verband.
    Hillside.....I just want to clarify your statement. The AHHA does let in outside mares but they must be of superior quality (only premium mares are let in) and they MUST be then bred to APPROVED Holsteiner stallions from that day forward if one expects to receive Holsteiner papers.

    the admission of outside mares serves to promote generational Holsteiner breeding from that mare forward.



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hillside H Ranch View Post
    You know, I can't believe I'm going to rise to the bait; I usually don't get involved in these types of discussions, but as a dues paying member of AHHA I am so sick of this type of thing! Tim, if you have such comtempt for "paper registries" that allow "outside" mares in, then why do you want to be affiliated with AHHA? I read your bio, the one that went out with the ballots for electing the AHHA board of directors and breeding committee. I get that you are a knowledgable, passionate guy, especially about Holsteiners and the Holsteiner mare lines. But why then be involved with AHHA? They let tons of "outside" mares in and I would venture a guess that if not for outside mares they would cease to exist, as the Verband eligible Holsteiner mare base in this country is tiny. But I can't believe that you would come here and criticize GOV breeding rules, when the GOV here in the U.S. has reciprocity with the GOV in Germany, while AHHA certainly does not have reciprocity with the Holsteiner Verband.
    Hi Hillside,

    I do not have any contempt for the GOV, even if I do feel that Holsteiners are the best sport horse breed in the world. I will defend, and support this breed any way I can. That also includes supporting my domestic breed registry that is in fact very closely connected with the Holsteiner Verband. Our organization, which I am very proud of supports American Holsteiner breeders. I pointed out a difference between what we have had to do here in the US vs what they have always done in Germany. Our rules are closely tied to theirs, our foals that are by Verband approved stallions(3 Gens) can go into their book, and our Judge works with one of theirs for our foal branding tours. The very mission statement of our Studbook is one that I support, most importantly in the pursuit of maintaining the breeding practices which have created the Hores I love.

    I may have not voiced my position well in the advocacy of the Holsteiner Horse, but I am not against our members from bringing in outside mares. They just have to be good ones. I advocated the NASF mares be brought to our inspections sites when their organization went defunct. I have presented 2 TB's mares to AHHA and owned a Q-stamm mare which competed in sport. What I am for is following the breeding practices of Generationally breeding using APPROVED Holsteiner stallions on approved mares. Knowledgable and carefull selection of breeding stock, being used to create the next generation, with full knowledge of the past generations.

    I do not believe that AHHA is a paper registry. We don't approve just anything, and our standards are high. If you want a Holsteiner, you are going to have to breed one, or buy one. My advocacy of the changes which have come to our studbook have lead to remarkable improvement in our stock, and for this I am proud. I know that we can not replicate what occurs in Germany, so I believe we can support our membership by teaching what has made the Holsteiner the greatest jumper horse in the world, protecting the brand which is Liscenced to AHHA, and most importantly the horse. This is done by advocating knowledge of the breed and the breeding practices which have created it. For me AHHA does this, and I am a Happy Member.

    So, I might think you are better off starting with a Holsteiner mare when trying to breed one, but I recognize that not everyone can do this. However, when you want to breed one, I will speak to the process that will enable our members to do so.


    So thank you for bringing your West. mare to AHHA and being a member. I hope you can breed some good daughters from her using our stallions. I also hope you will breed with some of them, so we as members can see their foals. Ultimately I hope you will generationally breed your mare and be successful at creating an enduring line of American Holsteiners we can all be proud of.

    I hope I did a better job explaining myself while helping you completely derail this thread.

    Tim
    Last edited by RyTimMick; Dec. 3, 2012 at 07:14 AM. Reason: Spelling
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    Gosh, Tim. The breeder of Blue Loyd stepped outside the registry when he put his SF mare to an Oldenburg stallion. The breeder of Totilas stepped outside the registry by putting a KWPN mare to a Trakehner stallion. And there are plenty of other examples out there of successful horses created by using stallions outside the mare's registry.
    You are missing a major point, and that is the Studbook that approved these foals also approved the stallions. Almost ALL studbooks are governed by approvals. Your two examples I am sure are no diifferent then when Cor de la Breyere was approved for breeding in Holstein. Yes he was an outside stallion, but once approved for breeding his foals become full Holsteiners.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    This!!! Why would you run for office in the AHHA with so much contempt for 90% of the dues paying members?
    Again, no contempt, and 90% is incorrect.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  11. #71
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    Perhaps, Tim, we just have a misunderstanding within this thread. I think most people here weren't saying go outside a registry and breed whatever you want, I think they were mostly saying that they may take a mare of one breed, present her to another registry for approval and then use an approved stallion from that registry (thus producing registered foals). That is what I'm referencing when going "outside the confines" of a particular registry. The mare's birth registry may not be where she ultimately ends up being used for breeding. That is what the AHHA model accepts, as do other registries referenced here. Some registries may be stricter than others in approving outside mares, but I think we are all speaking of producing registerable foals by approved breeding stock.

    As far as my Westfalen mare goes, she has produced 2 registered AHHA fillies for me (by Indoctro and Contendro, respectively), both of which are now Premium mares (one the highest scoring American bred mare on her tour, with the 2nd highest free-jumping scores of the tour), both reserve champs of their inspection sites. One has produced a single (premium) AHHA foal (by Calido) and is now in sport, and the other is expecting her first foal (by Cassini II). So the model is working well for me, even though I didn't have an authentic "Holsteiner" mare to begin with. Hopefully my young breeding program will go on to bigger and better things, while still utilizing the policies of AHHA.
    So thank you for clarifying your position on AHHA's use of outside mares.

    And I apologize for my part in derailing this thread, as well. Carry on
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
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    www.HillsideHRanch.com


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  12. #72
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    Fwiw my take on breeding is to look at WHY some registries and stud farms are famous and some are not.

    The famous ones are famous because they have produced competition horses of world class and Olympic medal standard. Success breeds success. And because they breed generationally a potential buyer can ring the stud farm up and ask if they have anything available that's related to Superfamoushorse. And the stud farm can say "yes!"

    Once the potential buyer is on the property they may end up buying something completely unrelated to the horse they came to see. But that is largely irrelevant. Superfamoushorse brought the punter in and good salesmanship will see that they buy something before they leave.

    Which is why having a breeding programme where over half your money is spent on producing the best young stock you have bred is an essential part of the business plan.

    To my mind registry is largely irrelevant. How many people would flock to join the Warmblood Breeders Studbook? Anyone? No?

    Now how many people would queue up to buy Woodlander Farouche? Who is graded into the Warmblood Breeders Studbook.

    During the Olympics Woodlander Stud had many visitors coming to look at their horses. And all because of the performance of horses they have bred: Woodlander Rockstar who is competing towards GP, Woodlander Dornroeschen who is Farouche's dam and competing Inter 1 and working towards GP and of course Woodlander Farouche herself, the double world champion.

    Breeding generationally I absolutely agree with.

    Breeding within the strict confines of one studbook just so I can get that studbook's paperwork? No, that doesn't interest me at all. I'll use a studbook that suits my breeding choices, not bend my breeding choices to fit into a studbook.

    An example of this is when I wanted to breed my ID x TB mare. What a mix of genetics! But she'd proven herself talented and sound and had a better competition record than 95% of other horses so was a good candidate to breed from. Since her genetics were rather unpredictable I wanted a stallion that was very line bred, ideally from a closed studbook, that had produced world class offspring. After months of searching I found one: Silvermoon. Line bred 2x3 to Mahagoni, a trakehner so the studbook is virtually closed and the sire of Blue Hors Matine. Bingo! Three ticks. After spending so long finding him I was not going to let any studbook rules stop me from using him and so chose a studbook where he was accepted as a sire.

    IMHO being a good breeder is nothing to do with papers. It's everything to do with having your youngsters produced so the world can see just how good the stock is that you are breeding. Without that shop window it is very, very hard to gain a reputation and without a reputation it is very, very hard to get the prices for your horses that their quality deserves.
    Last edited by stolensilver; Nov. 29, 2012 at 07:14 AM.


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    You are missing a major point, and that is the Studbook that approved these foals also approved the stallions. Almost ALL studbooks are governed by approvals. Your two examples I am sure are no diifferent then when Cor de la Breyere was approved for breeding in Holstein. Yes he was an outside stallion, but once approved for breeding his foals become full Holsteiners.
    So if the stallion isn't approved by his own registry, he isn't worth breeding to? I can agree with that to a certain extent, because I feel a stallion should be "good enough" to be approved by the registry that produced him. I do, however, have to eat my words often enough - a classic example is Rubinstein I, who was initially turned down as a stallion by his birth registry. But he was approved by Oldenburg, where he made history as a sire of excellent dressage horses (and some hunters, too!), and then was later approved by his birth registry, as well as multiple other registries based on the quality of his foals.

    And to continue using Rubinstein I as an example - he was Westfalen by birth. Do you feel, then, that it is not a good philosophy to breed, say, a Hanoverian mare to him, and register the foal as Oldenburg? (And yes, I know he is deceased, and the frozen is crap.) Because I am sure there were a lot of good foals produced that way.

    Another example is using a TB mare with an approved Holsteiner stallion and registering the foal with Oldenburg. This is a cross that has produced many very nice hunters (as well as horses for other disciplines). Was it wrong to register those foals as Oldenburg? Should the breeders have gone only with AHHA?

    I guess what I am saying is that just because Holstein's philosophy is to consolidate the bloodlines, it doesn't mean it is the only path to achieving success. Oldenburg, as well as KWPN, take a different approach, and, as you know, they have proven to be quite successful.


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    Hi Hillside,

    I do not have any contempt for the GOV, even if I do feel that Holsteiners are the best sport horse breed in the world. I will defend, and support this breed any way I can. That also includes supporting my domestic breed registry that is in fact very closely connected with the Holsteiner Verband. Our organization, which I am very proud of supports American Holsteiner breeders. I pointed out a difference between what we have had to do here in the US vs what they have always done in Germany. Our rules are closely tied to theirs, our foals that are by Verband approved stallions(3 Gens) can go into their book, and our Judge works with one of theirs for our foal branding tours. The very mission statement of our Studbook is one that I support, most importantly in the pursuit of maintaining the breeding practices which have created the Hores I love.

    I may have not voiced my position well in the advocacy of the Holsteiner Horse, but I am not against our members from bringing in outside mares. They just have to be good ones. I advocated the NSAF mares be brought to our inspections sites when their organization went defunct. I have presented 2 TB's mares to AHHA and owned a Q-stamm mare which competed in sport. What I am for is following the breeding practices of Generationally breeding using APPROVED Holsteiner stallions on approved mares. Knowledgable and carefull selection of breeding stock, being used to create the next generation, with full knowledge of the past generations.

    I do not believe that AHHA is a paper registry. We don't approve just anything, and our standards are high. If you want a Holsteiner, you are going to have to breed one, or buy one. My advocacy of the changes which have come to our studbook have lead to remarkable improvement in our stock, and for this I am proud. I know that we can not replicate what occurs in Germany, so I believe we can support our membership by teaching what has made the Holsteiner the greatest jumper horse in the world, protecting the brand which is Liscenced to AHHA, and most importantly the horse. This is done by advocating knowledge of the breed and the breeding practices which have created it. For me AHHA does this, and I am a Happy Member.

    So, I might think you are better off starting with a Holsteiner mare when trying to breed one, but I recognize that not everyone can do this. However, when you want to breed one, I will speak to the process that will enable our members to do so.


    So thank you for bringing your West. mare to AHHA and being a member. I hope you can breed some good daughters from her using our stallions. I also hope you will breed with some of them, so we as members can see their foals. Ultimately I hope you will generationally breed your mare and be successful at creating an enduring line of American Holsteiners we can all be proud of.

    I hope I did a better job explaining myself while helping you completely derail this thread.

    Tim
    Tim, I think this was an excellent post. Very sensible. Like.
    www.EquusMagnificus.ca
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DownYonder View Post
    So if the stallion isn't approved by his own registry, he isn't worth breeding to? I can agree with that to a certain extent, because I feel a stallion should be "good enough" to be approved by the registry that produced him. I do, however, have to eat my words often enough - a classic example is Rubinstein I, who was initially turned down as a stallion by his birth registry. But he was approved by Oldenburg, where he made history as a sire of excellent dressage horses (and some hunters, too!), and then was later approved by his birth registry, as well as multiple other registries based on the quality of his foals.

    And to continue using Rubinstein I as an example - he was Westfalen by birth. Do you feel, then, that it is not a good philosophy to breed, say, a Hanoverian mare to him, and register the foal as Oldenburg? (And yes, I know he is deceased, and the frozen is crap.) Because I am sure there were a lot of good foals produced that way.

    Another example is using a TB mare with an approved Holsteiner stallion and registering the foal with Oldenburg. This is a cross that has produced many very nice hunters (as well as horses for other disciplines). Was it wrong to register those foals as Oldenburg? Should the breeders have gone only with AHHA?

    I guess what I am saying is that just because Holstein's philosophy is to consolidate the bloodlines, it doesn't mean it is the only path to achieving success. Oldenburg, as well as KWPN, take a different approach, and, as you know, they have proven to be quite successful.
    I have never said that a stallion who was not approved by his birth registry should be used. I am saying that you should breed with Stallion who are approved in your registry. Sometimes like with Cor de la Bryere, he breeds better on a different set of mares. This is done all the time. You must understand that he was approved for breeding in Holstein before they used him. A stallions approval or lack of approval elsewhere is not important. What is important, is if a stallion is approved for a particular group of mares. Many a great stallion has been rejected in Holstein soley because the Holsteiner mares might not have needed him. However, other studbooks might have needed him, and many have taken advantage of the Holsteiner genetics.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


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  16. #76
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    I am a newbie breeder- and this thread is EXCELLENT! The derailing is good too because it is also helpful. I have a tendancy to agree with RhyTimMick however-as a veteran dog breeder, it's really important to know EVERYTHING about the motherlines, that way you can more accurately tell buyers what to expect. And I have certainly noticed that some registries are more discipline focused, which is good for me as a jumper breeder. I haven't yet decided what registry to be loyal to, but I will certainly find one and stick to it at least until I know exactly what my mare line is producing. Just like breeding a proven stallion to a maiden, consider your mare line maiden until you have seen NUMEROUS examples from that line.

    Just my two cents!



  17. #77
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    Hi Stolensilver,

    I would like to take on your Famous Breeder discussion, as I feel it directly speaks to Donella's question.

    I can only speak of the most famous breeders in Holstein because they are the ones I know. They all breed with in the confines of their studbook. Even more so, most of their mares have near identical breeding. I would see no more then 4 or 5 stallions used. I often would see full sisters on the same farm. All of these breeders I speak of have bred horses for the top of the sport, including the Olympics. They would only breed with the stallions that were near them, or standing at the stallion station they brought their mares too. At the end of the day, they will tell you it was that fact that they knew the stallions well that enabled them to choose the right stallion. They would see hundreds of foals from the same stallion. They knew what they were breeding. It ultimately has led them to be who they are today.

    You can argue to me that you need choice to be a better breeder, but flexibility isn't what made Capitol, Ramiro, Cardento, Indoctro, Calido, Canturo, Cantus, Corrado, Carthago, Cassini, Acorado, Contender, Contendro, Caretino, Caletto II, Calypso I/II, Landgraf, Lord and Casall.

    So for me, I will follow their model. They never bred outside the confines of their studbook, and neither will I. I will breed with what I know, and I will know it, because I have seen it or have heard from the above breeders how they breed. I will not guess how a stallion that was not approved by my studbook will work with my mares.

    Guessing is not a good breeding philosophy.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #78
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    Donella,

    My comments to you were not about best breeds or any of that. It was about being a good breeder. It is not possible to know every breed as well as those that focus on only one. You chose to step out of the Hannoverian pool and swim in others. I personnaly thinks this distracts you from breeding good Hannoverians. Knowing how to be a good Hannoverian breeder will make you garner more knowledge about your mares, and THAT will make you a better breeder. Breeding to what ever flavor of the day stallion comes along will not. Hannover has many great stallions, or at least ones approved by them. I am sure you can find one good enought to breed your mares too. If you get a good daughter from the breeding you will then be able to look to other Hannoverian mares by the same stallion to see how they breed. If you breed to a stallion outside the book, you will have garnered Zero knowledge. I think this would be a loss.


    Tim


    I understand what you are saying, you do have a good point here. I feel fairly comfortable with the Oldenburg horses as the genetics are similar to the Hanoverians ect. But I admit I am fairly lost when it comes to KWPN stallions ect and then add to the equation a maiden mare and no real intimate knowledge of how her family produces. So yes, it becomes more of an experiment the further I go into "unchartered territory" so to speak. I think like Edgewood and Sunnydays ect I will likely keep my focus on producing Hanoverian horses with the exception here and there when it best suits.

    Thank you all for your thoughts and advice!
    www.svhanoverians.com

    "Simple: Breeding,Training, Riding". Wolfram Wittig.



  19. #79
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    I think you are either a brand breeder, go to your brand breed shows, go for your brands performance awards, etc. OR you are perhaps just breeding a replacement riding horse for yourself so no particular brand is so important OR you are breeding for the sport--whichever sport you are interest in, for example, hunters, show jumpers, dressage or eventing--and bloodlines and pedigrees and sport results are your driving force. Plus there may be other situations I did not previously describe, but I think these three are the major three.
    The majority of mare owners are not breeders--that is, they are not into the breeds and do not have an ongoing breeding program. They will breed their mare for generally several different reasons that are personal to each one. So brand loyalty is not a major concern to them. Oftentimes convenience and ease of just getting some papers on the foal is a driving factor.
    But for those of us who are longer term breeders, either breeding a particular breed because we have some personal beliefs of value, loyalty, etc. associated with that breed (kind of like having your favorite college or pro team) or breeding for a particular sport, breed associations take on an entirely different perspective.
    For us who are breeding for a sport, then I think we look for a registry that gives us a certain amount of convenience but which is well respected overall. Ease of getting foals inspected counts. A large degree of stallion selection is important, particularly when you are trying to select the "right" stallion for a particular mare with a specific breeding goal in mind--you cannot be limited to a narrow breed (noting personal but for example you would not want to be a Danish Warmblood breeder). And nothing against the NAWPN/KWPN folks, but you would try to avoid a registry that has too many "breed" rules. After all, you are simply trying to get the best stallion for the mare at hand so as to put the best sport horse on the ground.
    Anyway, if you are in the States, as opposed to being in Canada, you are also further limited because unlike our neighbors to the North, we have no U.S. national breed registry(registries)--please don't mention the PHR or the AWR or whatever its latest derivation is--not even comparable.
    So we are left trying to find a path through the few registries who have enough inspections sites, who have enough stallions to select from, and who have rules that are reasonable enough to work for us and not against us.
    I won't name the few registries that fit this, but one or two have already been mentioned. And then don't forget that once you do find one that works for you, be sure to help support it so that like in any political situation if you do need a special consideration someone in their office will know and like you and then go out of their way to help you.
    Last edited by feather river; Nov. 30, 2012 at 04:48 AM. Reason: sp
    Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    I have never said that a stallion who was not approved by his birth registry should be used. I am saying that you should breed with Stallion who are approved in your registry. Sometimes like with Cor de la Bryere, he breeds better on a different set of mares. This is done all the time. You must understand that he was approved for breeding in Holstein before they used him. A stallions approval or lack of approval elsewhere is not important. What is important, is if a stallion is approved for a particular group of mares. Many a great stallion has been rejected in Holstein soley because the Holsteiner mares might not have needed him. However, other studbooks might have needed him, and many have taken advantage of the Holsteiner genetics.
    OK, I understand what you are saying. And that philosophy has obviously worked very well indeed for Holstein.

    However, to clarify - stallions from outside registries that are on the Oldenburg roster HAVE been approved by Oldenburg. And breeding allowances for stallions NOT on the roster are not issued in blanket fashion - for instance, there may only be one allowance issued to a particular stallion in a given year - so it isn't as though a large group of mares are going to that stallion in a given year.

    Also - the Oldenburg mare books, esp. here in NA - is not nearly as homogenous as the Holsteiner mare books, but again, the registry's breeding model is not the same as Holstein's. It is more open to "diversity" - it is just a different philosophy.



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