Dang, I was hoping that might be another avenue for you to explore. Given your very understandable desperation and comprehensive testing, throwing tylan at it sounds good. I have seen some resistant giardia that needed panacur and metronidazole together to clear. My last badly affected patient benefited from standard process nutraceuticals.
One more for you, what about small intestinal bacterial overgrowth? Sometimes this one is pretty obvious looking at a direct fecal smear. I was ready to take DH's dog to exploratory surgery for biopsies for his nasty diarrhea when I found the overgrowth. Rather that what you would expect for a dog with diarhea, treatment is clavamox and metronidazole.
Last edited by Marshfield; Nov. 26, 2012 at 08:09 PM.
I think I'd be going the raw route if I were you. My dog Piper had horrible stomach issues before I switched her. Not to the extent you describe, but she was having almost constant loose stools, lived on Metronidazole. Never had anything test-wise come back that told us why.
After trying numerous different foods, fasting her, chicken/rice, etc., I switched her to raw and have never looked back. She's been on it since Aug. '11 and she's a completely different dog now.
I would think you should be able to get meat/organs in Africa, but I have no clue.. FWIW, my dogs bone in staples are chicken quarters & turkey necks, and for boneless they get green tripe, beef, pork, or venison. 10% of the diet should be organs, I use kidney (5%) and liver (5%). It's a little overwhelming at first but once you get a routine down it's pretty simple. Here's a great site that I used when switching: http://preymodelraw.com/how-to-get-started/
Also, this forum: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/ is great and has a ton of knowledgeable members. The raw section was super helpful in holding my hand when I first switched.
I did not read all the posts, but when I read that you are feeding him a CUP of pumpkin, that may be the issue. That is WAY too much. At the most I would feed 1/4 a cup spread thought 2 means. My 65lb dog gets a tablespoon. Granted your lab is most likely heavier than my dog, but I would still cut that pumpkin down.
Not a veterinarian...yet...and definitely not on the small animal route, but agree with a few things other folks have posted.
2. 1 can of pumpkin per meal? That is A LOT of pumpkin. What I've heard recommended (and what my own lab gets) is 1 tablespoon/meal.
3. Internal medicine specialist. Seriously. Took the internal medicine rotation recently, and 90% of what we saw was related to GI issues -- chronic diarrhea, irritable bowel, pancreatitis, etc, etc, etc. If nothing else, they will be able to help formulate a plan based on the diagnostics your veterinarian has already performed.
Has your veterinarian suggested a course of prednisone or budesonide? And has anyone done an abdominal ultrasound?
Tylan appears to be script only. Has not been prescribed at this point.
Ben and Me--no, 1 cup tops, not one can.
As far as internal medicine, yes...there is an entire team actually. Including an internist, on this case at MSU. What sucks is that I had to move.
And lastly, yes, he had more than a few ultrasounds plus major surgery. His behavior now is EXACTLY what it was prior to surgery. I don't think the surgery was needed at all at this point. Sad to say as it was 4k.
A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.
In the US, the 2 major chronic colitis researchers are Stanley Marks (UC Davis) and David Twedt (Colorado State)--both boarded internists. I heard Dr. Twedt speak at a conference several years ago about Tylan responsive colitis and it was illuminating. It has also offered relief to many of my clients/patients who either tried and failed at a diagnosis, or simply ran out of money before a diagnosis. Several have been at the crux of "SO vs dog" or "euthanasia vs empirical treatment". What do you have to lose? I would not hesitate to discuss this with your primary or referral vet--they can read the studies and proceedings on VIN if they have no experience with the drug.
In the Netherlands, extensive research has been done at Helsinki by Dr. Westermark's group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3084160 Effect of tylosin on dogs with suspected tylosin-responsive diarrhea: a placebo-controlled, randomized, double-blinded, prospective clinical trial (2011)
I have also used dietary management, which you have tried it sounds like. Some are fiber responsive, others low-residue responsive. I used to work at a very holistic clinic with a large amount of raw feeders. Done right, this can be great. Done wrong, it can make your dog a chronic Salmonella shedder. Plus if you are not likely to be able to do this in Africa it's a moot point.
A huge tub of Tylan will set you back $50 and probably last you at least a year.
When you try it, and it works, you can name your next born child (4 legged of course) after me. Feel free to PM for more detailed information--I can cut and paste proceedings information for you.
From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.
I have nothing to add about diet etc. however, moving a dog with a chronic intestinal issue to Zimbabwe does not seem like a very good idea no matter if you get it temporarily resolved or not. Sounds to me like the trip alone could kill him.
I have no advice re: digestive upset, but since your dog keeps having accidents, could you put puppy pads down and see if he'll use those when he has to go urgently? It could save you some serious cleaning time.
Pony, if you don't mind, I think I will PM you tomorrow. Would you be at all interested in reviewing the chart on my dog? I'm kind of lost here trying to find a new vet in a new place and it sounds like you have some experience and might have some special insight. I don't want to put you on the spot, but at this point, anyone who has a new idea other than....more metronidazole and more time....well, I'd like to try something.
Sunridge...Mozambique. And the trip won't kill him, but thanks for your concern. He's a happy dog. He's actually putting on weight even with this. And I have lived further away than the West coast of Africa and am fairly certain we'll be fine.
Not sure why you'd think a trip would kill anyone. Unless you fly coach without booze...then it will kill nearly anyone.
A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.
"Other than when he's on ONLY hamburger and rice, it's loose stool."
So - feed him hamburger and rice. Buy in bulk when it's on sale and freeze. You'll need to add extra calcium, enzymes, and some vitamins to make it nutritionally complete, but it will take at most half an hour a week. Take a pound of hamburger, a cup of dry brown rice, and 2 cups of water - cook in crockpot or oven on 300 degrees for a couple of hours until all the water is absorbed. Add the calcium (1 teaspoon powdered,) enzymes, and vitamins. That is perfectly good food and won't cost any more than all that expensive "special" dog food you've been buying.
Buddy Roo, I second what Pony Fixer said about using Tylan. Be warned the stuff is nasty tasting, just mixing the powder into pills for my dog would make me gag and that's a hard thing to do. The stuff is incredible though and it works. My girl who has since passed had Protein Losing Enteropathy which is a losing battle but we were able to keep her going and comfortable enough for a few years passed what life expentancy should have been. Tylan was our fail safe for any bowel issues. Your vet should have no issues with writing a script for it but just in case, I do have a small container of it. Probably enough for a couple of weeks that was my emergency stash that I would be willing to give up for you. I doubt I will be needing it now. Just pm me if you would like it.
ETA - We also had her on acidophilus, and colostrum plus among other various vitamins but the colostrum, tylan, and acidophilus made the biggest difference for my girl.
The one good thing about repeating your mistakes is that you know when to cringe.
I'm so sorry. I do agree with everyone else - a cup of pumpkin a day is WAY WAY WAY too much! A tablespoon is more than sufficient.
I also have to agree that taking him to Africa is just too much. I know that 9 1/2 is "young" but with his health problems, I would seriously consider euthanasia before a transatlantic move, not to mention all the incredibly stressful quarantine requirements, as well as lack of skilled veterinary care once you get there. I just lost my dog from arthritis and he was almost 13, so I am not saying this lightly. I think subjecting a sick animal to that sort of travel would not be responsible.
BRING ANDY HOME I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry
I am no expert on doggie digestion problems, but as someone with Crohn's and multiple bowel resections, you're basically taking away the very things that digest your food and absorb water. The plumbing is shorter now, and therefore doesn't have as much time to firm up.
Like I said, I'm no expert on dogs, but for people, its moving to a bland diet that doesn't cause much upset (bananas, rice, oatmeal) until the loose stools subside. Low-residue diet, and some sort of fiber supplement.
Sorry your buddy is not feeling well. Can they check for colitis? C.Diff?