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  1. #21
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    Of course MUGGLE MOM, they are not considered professionals unless they ride or train, etc,... I was addressing a specific comment and was not quite clear.

    The amateur rule should not have to be so complicated except for the fact that many people violate its intent and manage to find a loophole.
    friend of bar*ka



  2. #22
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    My question is, how willing are we as a group to "self regulate" the intent by filling objections and turning the cheaters in?

    I know I wouldn't have an issue doing it if I solidly knew someone was cheating. Can you all say the same?

    I really think that part of the delay in getting the cheating down is that many folks wait for the officials and higher Up'S to step in, When in fact they have so much else going on they aren't as in the loop as the people in their division, barn etc.

    Maybe if the sport as a whole got tougher on our peers, we would be able to clean up the nears that much quicker.

    Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  3. #23
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    Geez, two people parse the rule - how about the whole section?

    Subchapter 13-B Amateurs and Professionals

    GR1306 Professional/Amateur Status.

    1. Amateur. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur if his 18th birthday, as defined in GR101, he has not engaged in any of the activities identified in paragraph 4 below.

    a. In the Dressage Division, individuals are only eligible to compete as amateurs from the beginning of the calendar year in which they reach age 22, see DR119.3.
    b. In the Reining Division, amateur status is determined per Reining Division Non Pro Conditions, see RN105.
    c. For Amateurs in Jumper Sections, see JP117.
    d. For Amateurs in Hunter Sections, see HU107.
    e. For Amateurs in Eventing, see EV Appendix 3-Participation in Horse Trials.

    2. Remuneration. Remuneration is defined as compensation or payment in any form such as cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services such as board or training.

    3. Permitted activities by Amateur. An Amateur is permitted to do the following:

    a. Accept reimbursement for actual expenses associated with conducting classroom seminars for a not-for-profit organization, therapeutic riding programs, or programs for charitable organizations approved in advance by the Federation.
    b. Act as a camp counselor when not hired in the exclusive capacity as a riding instructor; assist in setting schooling fences without remuneration; give instruction or training to handicapped riders for therapeutic purposes.
    c. Appear in advertisements and/or articles related to acknowledgement of one’s own personal or business sponsorship of a competition and/or awards earned by one’s owned horses.
    d. Accept prize money as the owner of a horse in any class other than equitation or showmanship classes.
    e. Accept prize money in Dressage.
    f. Accept a non-monetary token gift of appreciation valued less than $300 annaully.
    g. Serve as an intern for college credit or course requirements at an accredited institution provided one has never held professional status with the Federation or any other equestrian National Federation. In addition, one may accept reimbursement for expenses without profit, as prescribed by the educational institution’s program, for the internship. In the Hackney, Roadster, Saddlebred, Saddle Seat Equitation, Morgan, Andalusian/Lusitano, Friesian, Arabian, and National Show Horse Divisions, college students may also accept a stipend during the internship served under this paragraph. At the request of the Federation, an Amateur shall provide certification from the accredited educational institution under whose auspices a student is pursuing an internship that he is undertaking the internship to meet course or degree requirements. EC 9/17/12 Effective 12/1/12
    h. Write books or articles related to horses.
    i. Accept remuneration for providing service in one’s capacity as a: presenter or panelist at a Federation licensed officials’ clinic, competition manager, competition secretary, judge, steward, technical delegate, course designer, announcer, TV commentator, veterinarian, groom, farrier, tack shop operator, breeder, or boarder, or horse transporter. EC 3/19/12 Effective 12/1/12
    j. Accept reimbursement for any bona fide expenses directly related to the horse (i.e. farrier/vet bills, entries). Travel, hotel, equipment, and room and board are not considered bona fide expenses.
    k. Entries for non-under saddle classes in amateur sections at hunter, jumper or hunter/jumper competitions, must be paid either (i) directly to the competition by the Amateur or by the Amateur’s family or (ii) by someone whom the Amateur or the Amateur’s family reimburses within 90 days of the last day of the competition for which entries were paid.
    l. Accept educational competition or training grant(s).

    4. Professional based on one’s own activities. Unless expressly permitted above, a person is a professional if after his 18th birthday he does any of the following:

    a. Accepts remuneration AND rides, exercises, drives, shows, trains, assists in training, schools or conducts clinics or seminars.
    b. Accepts remuneration AND gives riding or driving lessons, showmanship lessons, equitation lessons, trains horses, or provides consultation services in riding, driving, showmanship, equitation, or training of horses.
    c. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an employee in a position such as a groom, farrier, bookkeeper, veterinarian or barn manager AND instructs, rides, drives,
    shows, trains or schools horses that are owned, boarded or trained by his employer, any member of his employer’s family, or a business in which his employer has an ownership interest.
    d. Accepts remuneration AND uses his name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseperson in connection with any advertisement or product/
    service for sale, including but not limited to apparel, equipment or property.
    e. Accepts prize money unless permitted in paragraph 3d or 3e above.
    f. Rides, drives or shows any horse that a cohabitant or family member or a cohabitant or family member’s business recieves remuneration for boarding, training, riding, driving or showing. A cohabitant or family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer.
    g. Gives instruction to any person or rides, drives, or shows any horse, for which activity his cohabitant or another person in his family or business in which his cohabitant or a family member controls will receive remuneration for the activity. A cohabitant or family member of a trainer may not absolve themselves of this rule by entering into a lease or any other agreement for a horse owned by a client of the trainer.
    h. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an agent in the sale of a horse or pony or accepts a horse or pony on consigment for the purpose of sale or training that is not owned by him, his cohabitant, or a member of his family, a farm/ranch/syndicate/partnership/corporation/business in which he, his cohabitant or a member of his family controls.
    i. Advertises one’s equestrian services such as training or instruction.
    j. Accepts remuneration AND acts as an intern, apprentice, or working student whose responsibilities include, but are not limited to, riding, driving, showmanship, handling, showing, training or assisting in training, giving lessons/coaching and/or schooling horses other than horses actually owned by him.
    k. Accepts remuneration in excess of rental fee for use of a facility, ring or school horses.
    l. Accepts remuneration for such use AND uses commercial logoed items while on competition grounds unless expressly permitted by applicable division rules.

    5. Professional based on one’s own activity along with another’s. A person is also deemed a professional after his 18th birthday, he accepts remuneration for his spouse, family member, or cohabitant engaged in any activity enumerated in 4 a-l above. For the purposes of this rule, the term cohabitant is defined as any individuals living together in a relationship, as would a married couple, but not legally married.

    6. Violations of Amateur status. After an investigation as to proper status has been initiated, and upon request by the Federation and to the satisfaction of the Federation,
    an Amateur shall submit verifiable proof of Amateur status, including but not limited to a bill of sale for any horse(s) the Amateur is competing in classes restricted to Amateur Owners. If the Federation deems such proof insufficient, then the Federation may initiate proceedings under Chapter 6.
    a. Any individual found to have knowingly assisted in the violation of the Amateur rule may also be subject to proceedings in accordance with Chapter 6. See GR1307.

    7. Questions about whether you are an Amateur or Professional. For specific inquiries,
    email amateurinquiry@usef.org. BOD 1/14/12 Effective 12/1/12
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    My question is, how willing are we as a group to "self regulate" the intent by filling objections and turning the cheaters in?

    I know I wouldn't have an issue doing it if I solidly knew someone was cheating. Can you all say the same?

    I really think that part of the delay in getting the cheating down is that many folks wait for the officials and higher Up'S to step in, When in fact they have so much else going on they aren't as in the loop as the people in their division, barn etc.

    Maybe if the sport as a whole got tougher on our peers, we would be able to clean up the nears that much quicker.

    Emily
    It's not about *knowing* someone is breaking a rule. It's about having proof. If the Humble dispute shows you anything, it's that you essentially need a smoking gun or you won't prevail in front of the USEF.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  5. #25
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    I think it's fairly clear. The rule talks about what is an amatuer and a professional. It defines "renumeration" within the scope of that rule and not in another section. Section 2 is setting the groundwork for what sections 3 and 4 define as limits and conditions. It passes a reasonable person test in my opinion. If I was drafting is within a contract in a highy regulated industry, I'd probably boldface defined terms whenever they were used for the less reasonable people, but that is about it.

    I take that back, as a matter of art, I would probably define renumeration like this:

    2. Remuneration. Remuneration is defined as compensation or payment for board or training. Such compensation or payment may be in any form, such as cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services.

    That doesn't change the definition, but it does put the idea that boarding or training, regardless of how you get paid for it is the core issue that defines a professional. Then maybe people like the OP wouldn't get lost in the weeds of potential waitress ammy violation concerns.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    My question is, how willing are we as a group to "self regulate" the intent by filling objections and turning the cheaters in?
    I think the answer to this is fairly clear, given how many threads pop up on this forum asking for ways to circumvent rules (whether the amateur rule or the drug rules) because people think their situation is different. I can think of several threads where multiple posters justified someone breaking the ammy rule by saying that the kid was in college and that somehow makes it different.

    I also know that from my own personal experience when I declared professional status because I was offered some opportunities that would break the ammy rule - even if no one knew aside from me - that there was a lot of backlash against me from a lot of people in my life because "no one would have known and now you've screwed yourself." My parents raised me to be honest, so I turned pro. But a lot of people have the mentality that if "everyone" does it, it's okay, or that they won't get caught so what does it matter? It makes me a little sad.

    I'm having a hard time reading posts by the OP because they're giant blocks of hysterical text, but I did read through the rule revisions and I'm not entirely sure what all the fuss is about. Some things do seem clarified to me...I didn't see anything that drastically changes anything.

    Edited to add an FYI: It is remuneration, not renumeration.


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  7. #27
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    See I disagree. Yes I was as surprised as everyone else by the Humble outcome, but I think if enough Shamateurs have to face repeated scrutiny from people suggesting that they aren't amateurs and have to prove repeatedly that they are. They and the folks who are bluffing to the officials might give way under the strain of the scrutiny from above. Now this of course assumes that these folks have a conscience and aren't morally faulted. Some are I know. But if enough people say, "You know I got a lesson from Becky Sue Showwinner 2 days before the show and I know I paid for it." then hopefully the ones who regulate the rules will enforce them.

    I am not an ammy but I know when I was being paid to ride racehorses and even though the USEA and the USEF said it was fine, I could see my own horse improving from the work. So I went ahead and declared as a pro anyway. Some of that needs to come back. But given how cool all the amateur stuff is and the fact that the best class schedules for weekends are nearly all amateur it behooves a lot of working stiffs to blur the line so they can compete when they're able. How many of us "regular" workers can afford to take every other Thursday or Friday off to compete in an open class? Not many.

    It would be helpful if the scheduling folks would realize that those who have jobs may need some open classes on the weekends also.

    ~Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  8. #28
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    I, for one, would be willing to stick my neck out and protest someone. But only if it was likely to have a chance of success. I now feel, based on the Humble dispute, that it's all but impossible to succeed. I don't think "shaming" (i.e. having a protest filed) will dissuade shamatuers. Heck, many of them have been called out for YEARS and "shamed" on this board and others and it hasn't stopped them a bit. Only being set down will stop cheating. And since it now seems unlikely... I feel stymied and I suspect others do too.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  9. #29

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    I am not in the "have a job? you're a pro" interpretation camp, but I do think the fact that there is no definition about what the remuneration has to be for is opening some huge interpretive doors. For those of you who think the rule is clear, how would you interpret this hypothetical situation?

    Person A breeds puppies and often rides Person B's horse. Person B buys a puppy from Person A.

    Person A has now received remuneration from Person B AND is riding Person B's horse.

    Pro or amateur?

    Does the decision change based on the price of the puppy?

    Say the puppy was $500 and every other puppy in the litter was $500.

    Say the puppy was $10,000 and other puppies were $500.

    Say the puppy was $1,000 and other puppies were $500, but Person A defends the price difference by saying the $1,000 puppy was show quality and the others were not.

    I am going to email USEF later today and get an actual response on this situation, but I'm still curious about how those of you who say the rule is clear would call it.


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    See I disagree. Yes I was as surprised as everyone else by the Humble outcome, but I think if enough Shamateurs have to face repeated scrutiny from people suggesting that they aren't amateurs and have to prove repeatedly that they are.
    The problem is that, AFAIK, they don't have to prove that they are amateurs. Someone has to prove that they are not, so even if everyone around a person knows that she is violating the ammy rules, someone would have to be able to provide, as another poster said, a smoking gun. Violating the rule depends on the person leaving no tracks, not necessarily whether anyone knows about it through the rumor mill.
    <><


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  11. #31
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    Did persons A and B have a bill of sale for the puppy?

    If so, not an issue.

    If not, I would say it's in a gray area.

    Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries



  12. #32
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    Halt Near X has nailed it. The rules seem fine in a first read. But when you have to apply them to a real case, one where your instinct leaves you unsure, that is where the rules are lacking because they appear to be overly broad. I am not saying that is what USEF wanted. I am saying that is what they wrote.

    The problem is: remuneration for what? Anything? DMK you would modify the definition of remuneration to solve this issue, i.e., the remuneration is limited to compensation for horse-related stuff. I think that is a fine idea. The current rules don't, however.

    I don't think all riding waitresses will be deemed professionals by USEF, even though they seem to literally fall within the scope of the rule. But applying the rule will lead to different interpretations both inside and outside the USEF. The ambiguity on the margin leads to lower enforcement or the apeparance of biased enforcement. Neither one is good.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyalTRider View Post
    The problem is that, AFAIK, they don't have to prove that they are amateurs. Someone has to prove that they are not, so even if everyone around a person knows that she is violating the ammy rules, someone would have to be able to provide, as another poster said, a smoking gun. Violating the rule depends on the person leaving no tracks, not necessarily whether anyone knows about it through the rumor mill.
    Actually this part is included in the rule change:

    6. Violations of Amateur status. After an investigation as to proper status has been
    initiated, and upon request by the Federation and to the satisfaction of the Federation,
    an Amateur shall submit verifiable proof of Amateur status, including but not
    limited to a bill of sale for any horse(s) the Amateur is competing in classes restricted
    to Amateur Owners. If the Federation deems such proof insufficient, then the
    Federation may initiate proceedings under Chapter 6.
    a. Any individual found to have knowingly assisted in the violation of the Amateur
    rule may also be subject to proceedings in accordance with Chapter 6. See
    GR1307.

    From: http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBo...rticipants.pdf

    Page 14.

    Emily
    "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries


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  14. #34
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    I once asked a trainer about protesting shamateurs and why they don't. Here's the rationale they gave me for not protesting (not saying it's right or wrong, just why that one person does not protest):

    1. Lawsuits- Can you defend if you get sued for protesting?
    2. Politics- How are you going to damage yourself if their trainer judges you later, you want to buy a horse, etc...
    3. Can you prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt?
    4. Will USEF ever actually do anything about it?


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  15. #35
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    fwiw, i think the Ammie rule sets up folks to break it. It unfairly puts working students in the "Pro" category and it makes it really hard for someone to get the education they need to become a good pro ...... (why is it fair for a WS to compete against a real pro?)

    i think instead of ammie/pro status there should be grading based on ability. because lets face it - there are some pros that cant ride and some Ammies that are amazing.

    right now i know at least 5 or more young people who teach/train/etc and show as Ammie's.... they are not quite good enough to be called real pros - but how the heck are they supposed to get good if they cant learn to earn?

    maybe there should be true ammies, learner pros/WS and real pros

    ?


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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    Actually this part is included in the rule change:

    6. Violations of Amateur status. After an investigation as to proper status has been
    initiated, and upon request by the Federation and to the satisfaction of the Federation,
    an Amateur shall submit verifiable proof of Amateur status, including but not
    limited to a bill of sale for any horse(s) the Amateur is competing in classes restricted
    to Amateur Owners. If the Federation deems such proof insufficient, then the
    Federation may initiate proceedings under Chapter 6.
    a. Any individual found to have knowingly assisted in the violation of the Amateur
    rule may also be subject to proceedings in accordance with Chapter 6. See
    GR1307.

    From: http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBo...rticipants.pdf

    Page 14.

    Emily
    I glossed right over that... thanks for setting me straight! I always thought the burden of proof was on the protestor.
    <><


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xctrygirl View Post
    ...But if enough people say, "You know I got a lesson from Becky Sue Showwinner 2 days before the show and I know I paid for it." then hopefully the ones who regulate the rules will enforce them...

    ~Emily
    Sorry, I only accept cash, and I am strictly a 'fashion adviser, ghost whisperer/excommunicator, reality show creator, tree communicator, dirt examiner..." LOL.

    From a real life BECKY SUE, though seriously, NEVER a showwinner. ;-)
    "Oh, sure, you may be able to take down one smurf, but mark my words: You bonk one smurf, you better be ready for a blue wave."---Bucky Katt



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BestLegUp View Post
    The problem is: remuneration for what? Anything? DMK you would modify the definition of remuneration to solve this issue, i.e., the remuneration is limited to compensation for horse-related stuff

    I just reorganized the thought a bit, not re-interpreted it. However the issue might be as simple as a typo. Seriously.

    Here's the original:

    2. Remuneration. Remuneration is defined as compensation or payment in any form such as cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods or services such as board or training.
    Try it with an extra letter:

    2. Remuneration. Remuneration is defined as compensation or payment in any form such as cash, goods, sponsorships, discounts or services; reimbursement of any expenses; trade or in-kind exchange of goods For services such as board or training.
    If that is the case, the missing "f" needs to be added back, but a good faith mistake such as a typo doesn't trump intent, and I still think the intent is clear to a reasonable person.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyssMyst View Post
    I once asked a trainer about protesting shamateurs and why they don't. Here's the rationale they gave me for not protesting (not saying it's right or wrong, just why that one person does not protest):

    1. Lawsuits- Can you defend if you get sued for protesting?
    2. Politics- How are you going to damage yourself if their trainer judges you later, you want to buy a horse, etc...
    3. Can you prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt?
    4. Will USEF ever actually do anything about it?
    Think about it. That's what your TRAINER said. LOL
    1 - never heard of anybody getting sued for a protest.
    2 - wanting to buy a horse should have nothing to do with filing a protest. And if they lose the protest why would you want to buy a horse from them?
    3 - Understand the rules. You don't have to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt. You don't even have to file a protest. Get the show steward to do it !!
    4 - Best laugh of all. Your 'trainer' must not read the USEF suspension reports. Every few months there are several people set down or fined ( including their trainer ) for amateur violations. But it's in your trainer's best interest for you to be in the dark on those suspensions and fines.


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  20. #40
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    1. Amber Hill is (at least threatening) to sue the person who filed a protest against her. Whether it is an empty threat or not, I am sure she's not alone. I don't know too many who relish being sued, or the risk thereof.

    2. You never know who you're going to tick off when you file a protest. One major shamateur in my area works for (or, I mean DOESN'T WORK FOR) a trainer who judges around the area. I assume if you protest his secret cash, that might result in him not pinning you. I, personally, am not so concerned about this problem but I could see where someone might be.

    3. Whatever the burden of proof is, it seems very difficult to meet. Cross reference the Humble protest. Without a very concrete piece of evidence, it seems too easy to wiggle out. So unless you have the check made out to the shamatuer with "for riding lessons" in the signature block AND the person who took the lessons willing to testify-- I'm not sure you're going to win. I just no longer feel any security that preponderance is a burden the USEF is going to agree has been met. Whether they say so or not, to me at least it looks as though they are applying a much higher burden.

    4. No way to tell what percentage of protests are unsuccessful.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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