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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn/aissance View Post
    I'm going to make some ass-u-meptions about HighFlyinBey's son, and if they're wrong, she's free to smack me for inadvertently making an ass out of her.

    One frequently oft-quoted statistic is that over half of college graduates 25 and under are unemployed or underemployed. You can debate the validity of those numbers (here, I just did half your work for you) but I haven't found anyone stating that the figure is under 40%, rather than 50%.

    I am going to ass-u-me that HighFlyinBey's son might be one of those college grads. I am going to make the further assumption that he didn't set out for a career in grocery shelf stocking.

    Now I'm going to stop talking about other people's children. When living at home with Mom and Dad because you can't afford to pay your own rent on your own salary is not an option, and when you cannot find another job outside of stocking grocery shelves... What would you suggest?

    I'm one of the lucky ones. I am not working in the field in which I graduated with a perfect GPA and honors. There was not going to be a job for me in that field once I graduated with a Master's, or at least not a job that was going to pay me substantially more than stocking grocery store shelves, and there was no way I was going to be able to pay back any of the necessary loans nor have the lifestyle I was shooting for (able to live in a safe place, able to save money for emergencies, able to pay for horse in his retirement.) But I have a job and I am financially independent. A lot of the people in my graduating class- smart, motivated, hard-working, internships, knowing a lot of the right people- are living with their parents and working at the grocery store. If they're working at all.
    I would suggest keep living with Mom and Dad, continue working as a stock clerk, and continue to look for a job in your chosen career. It aint easy, nothing gets handed to you. Sometimes you have to work a stock clerk job for a while until your career job shows up. Thats life, and it has happened that way for years and years and years. Better than sitting at home in Mom and Dads house playing video games, isnt it?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  2. #102
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    Here's what everyone is losing sight of. If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation it would be $10.57 today. We're going to have to pay to maintain people at a basic standard of living, I'd prefer to do it through wages rather than welfare or tax credits.

    Or we can let people starve on the streets. But that doesn't usually work out too well for a country as a whole. Riots, rebellion, etc.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    11 members found this post helpful.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    I dont know what world you're living in, but go to Walmart sometime and see what the workforce looks like. Many "retirees" who can't live on their meager social security, kids going to school who are paying their own way, moms who need part time jobs just to help ends meet, take these "dinky second jobs". People who dont especially want to work these part time jobs, but they have to.
    I believe you missed mvp's point. Completely.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    4 members found this post helpful.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renn/aissance View Post
    I'm going to make some ass-u-meptions about HighFlyinBey's son, and if they're wrong, she's free to smack me for inadvertently making an ass out of her.

    One frequently oft-quoted statistic is that over half of college graduates 25 and under are unemployed or underemployed. You can debate the validity of those numbers (here, I just did half your work for you) but I haven't found anyone stating that the figure is under 40%, rather than 50%.

    I am going to ass-u-me that HighFlyinBey's son might be one of those college grads. I am going to make the further assumption that he didn't set out for a career in grocery shelf stocking.

    Now I'm going to stop talking about other people's children. When living at home with Mom and Dad because you can't afford to pay your own rent on your own salary is not an option, and when you cannot find another job outside of stocking grocery shelves... What would you suggest?
    No need for slapping: you're partly right.

    My son is currently working his way through school with a non-grocery-related goal. He shares a rental with 3 other guys. He pays market rate for his bedroom that's barely big enough for his full-size mattress and a desk. He can't add any shelving if he wants to open either the bedroom or closet doors. I went to visit for a weekend last month and as I was pulling in, some freshman tossed a large rock through their kitchen window. We temporarily fixed it with saran wrap, packing tape, pizza boxes and a garbage bag. They seem to like living in squalor

    I'd much rather he moved back in with me, even though I use his old room as my living room. He could save his pennies for his car's needs instead of rent. I can't afford to pay his tuition, but I could supply a free place to live.

    Like his mom, he's pretty independent. He hates to ask for help.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Here's what everyone is losing sight of. If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation it would be $10.57 today. We're going to have to pay to maintain people at a basic standard of living, I'd prefer to do it through wages rather than welfare or tax credits.

    Or we can let people starve on the streets. But that doesn't usually work out too well for a country as a whole. Riots, rebellion, etc.
    You are making the assumption that a higher regulated mimnum wage would be cheaper for the govenment in terms of welfare or tax credits while ignoring how it can increase unemployment and stifile economic growth which in turn increases welfare. The answer is not so simple as you seem to think.


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  6. #106
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    If most people are only earning a "living wage", the economy is not going to grow.

    It's the "extras" one can afford aside from housing, food etc, that have a positive impact on the economy.

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


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  7. #107
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    FWIW, I think in that living wage calculator when they're figuring rent for singles-- they are not assuming that dollar value can buy a one-bedroom apartment in the nice part of town. I am gusssing that value assumes roommates/shared living. I checked a couple places I lived in college etc. and the values would not have rented a 1 bedroom but easily would have covered 1/3 rent in a 3 bedroom with 2 others, etc.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    I dont know what world you're living in, but go to Walmart sometime and see what the workforce looks like. Many "retirees" who can't live on their meager social security, kids going to school who are paying their own way, moms who need part time jobs just to help ends meet, take these "dinky second jobs". People who dont especially want to work these part time jobs, but they have to.
    I live in the same world as you, and in a relatively poor state.

    I get that people who take these jobs have to. That people need more than one job to make ends meet is a sign of wide-spread declining wealth and, I submit, declining pay. See the other thread I started about the hypothesis that wages have been flat since 1970s.

    It doesn't change the need to do what we can to insist that employers do better. After all, Walmart has an effect on competing stores: If they can do it cheaper-- partly by underpaying labor-- then the others need to do that, too.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    If most people are only earning a "living wage", the economy is not going to grow.

    It's the "extras" one can afford aside from housing, food etc, that have a positive impact on the economy.
    Giving attention to Blugal's post about the possibility that the US must do some belt-tightening or risk following in Greece's path, I think we have it wrong.

    Since at least the stuff-filled 1950s (1920s?) we told people that excess consumption was what was needed to grow the American economy. That was ignoring poverty and its negative effects.

    But no one-- individual or country-- can afford to follow that logic when it gets poor enough. Then they need to care about basic stuff like food and shelter.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    You are making the assumption that a higher regulated mimnum wage would be cheaper for the govenment in terms of welfare or tax credits while ignoring how it can increase unemployment and stifile economic growth which in turn increases welfare. The answer is not so simple as you seem to think.
    Actually, studies are beginning to show that is not true. Counter intuitive, yes.

    http://www2.gsu.edu/~ecobth/IZA_HKZ_MinWageCoA_dp6132.pdf

    And from Forbes on the basic philosphy:
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2012/07/25/why-conservatives-should-support-the-minimum-wage/


    And Business Week:
    http://www.businessweek.com/articles...small-business

    Note...I tried to avoid links that would be considered "liberal".
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #111
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    How much wages is enough?

    Well, when I was in college, I owned a crappy, economy car and lived in an efficiency apartment. I owned one dog. I biked to school most days to save on parking money.

    Rent: $500/month
    Utilities: roughly $30/month
    Car insurance: roughly $100/month (let's not talk about my driving record)
    Phone (had a cell phone when they first came out): $40
    cable: $50.
    Health insurance: still covered by parents.
    Groceries: roughly $80/month
    Clothes - rarely bought new clothes: say $200/year

    I worked about 30hrs/week at a big box hardware store (going over 32, I would be full time and they would have to pay me benefits).

    $8/hrX31X52=12896X.85(taxes) = $10961/year

    total cost of living for me = $9800/year

    yep...worked out.

    In 2009, I got back from deployment and was under employed (laid off from my civilian job prior to deploying). I made about $13K that year and couldn't make ends meet.

    The difference? mortgage, board for my horse and driving a gas guzzling truck.

    It all comes down to understanding what 'living wage' means. It means able to put a roof over your head, food in your mouth and clothes on your back. It does not mean owning the vehicle you want, living in the 'nice' neighborhood or having the nicest clothes.

    Some posters on this thread mentioned how the living wage calculator in their area does not account for a house in a 'nice neighborhood' or how you need a certain salary to have that 'decent lifestyle'. Living wage is not about decent or nice or being able to afford luxuries - it is the minimum needed to put a roof over your head, food in your mouth and clothes on your back. Even what people consider basics, such as having a cell phone, cable or internet, are not basics. They are luxuries.


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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    I would suggest keep living with Mom and Dad, continue working as a stock clerk, and continue to look for a job in your chosen career. It aint easy, nothing gets handed to you. Sometimes you have to work a stock clerk job for a while until your career job shows up. Thats life, and it has happened that way for years and years and years. Better than sitting at home in Mom and Dads house playing video games, isnt it?
    I think you missed the part of my paragraph where I asked what you would suggest for people who don't have the safety net of moving back with Mom and Dad. Not everyone has that option.
    "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep."
    - Harry Dresden

    Horse Isle 2: Legend of the Esrohs LifeCycle Breeding and competition MMORPG


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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Giving attention to Blugal's post about the possibility that the US must do some belt-tightening or risk following in Greece's path, I think we have it wrong.

    Since at least the stuff-filled 1950s (1920s?) we told people that excess consumption was what was needed to grow the American economy. That was ignoring poverty and its negative effects.

    But no one-- individual or country-- can afford to follow that logic when it gets poor enough. Then they need to care about basic stuff like food and shelter.
    Interestingly, I was listing to a radio program on this very topic tonight. It's The Invisible Hand on the CBC. It directly addressed the idea that with austerity in the headlines, should we all be tightening our belts? (Which is apparently a normal knee-jerk reaction of a typical person.)

    If you follow Keynesian economics, the answer is NO. The program discussed the Depression of the 30s (though there aren't hard and fast rules/lessons from that) as well as the idea of stimulus and consumption being needed to keep an economy going.
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Here's what everyone is losing sight of. If the minimum wage had kept pace with inflation it would be $10.57 today.
    Well, that, and if it had kept pace with CEOs' salaries, which have gone up 750% in the last 30 years, employees on minimum wage would be making upwards of $23/hour. (Source: CNN. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/25/opinio...age/index.html)
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistyBlue View Post
    Student debt is indeed a big factor for many people, but it's not a factor in cost of living. Cost of living covers basic necessities and not advanced educations.

    If a company takes decent care of it's employees...are the company heads allowed to keep their profits or must they donate or hand it over to their employees to keep everyone happy? And if they have to do that, why take on the responsibility and risk of heading a company?

    Company execs should be decent, but they don't need to be Robin Hoods. I also think athletes and entertainment make ridiculous sums of money. Are they entitled to it? Well, the market bears it. When athlete wages raise ticket costs...arenas are still full. Musicians make more depending on sales amounts. Same with actors. (I notice people only denigrate the entertainment aspects they dislike and not mention what Julia Roberts of George Clooney makes. Guess they're more likeable so are allowed to keep their incomes?)

    When people whine and complain what a pro athlete, actor, rap artist make along with complaints about what execs make...it's basically the have somes complaining about the have lots and using the have nots as a way to make their points. It's the current It's Not Faaiiir reason...children whining it's not fair that others took risks, were born into affluence or had a talent and were lucky enough to be "discovered" to become famous...so why do THEY get THAT much more than meeeee? They can make *some* money...even what *I* consider a lot of money but it's not f-a-i-r that they make THAT much.

    Even on this thread many are confused as to what should be considered in a living wage. Internet and cell phones. Not in a living wage. Believe it or not...there's an ENORMOUS chunk of the country that have neither. And live just fine.

    Not every job should be designed or required to pay a living wage. Many jobs are taken as a second/supplemental income. Some are for extras a person really wants (internet, vacations, cell phones, horses, entertainment, etc) and isn't covered by their living wage job. Some are a spouse who is adding to a family's income but not the main wage earner. Some are young people starting out and still living home.

    Our styles of living have changed and people now assume that style is a right. It's not. Multiple cars are not a right. Multiple electronics aren't. Living in your fave/chosen neighborhood isn't a right. Style of apartment isn't a right...you can rent a room or a studio for a hella lot less.
    Great post!


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I was in NYC during the last quarter of 2008 when the stock market crapped the bed... just a half-mile south of where I lived. You couldn't walk a block without reading or hearing people talk about the effects this would have on their life.

    I get it. But the Nike point, really "You can only pay the return that market constraints allow" still stands. Too bad if companies will have to pay lower dividends due to labor costs. But by the same token, those rich enough to own stock ought to be first in line to buy American.
    You seem to not understand economics. If you increase everyone's wages and give them health insurance/paid vacations, etc, you are going to cause businesses to go under, new investors will not provide funding for start up businesses, people will not want to risk capital starting businesses, prices for goods will skyrocket, and almost every company still left open will only hire part time employees.
    There is a place in the economy for unskilled/entry level jobs that pay min wage. Or even less, in unregulated jobs. The fact that teens, retirees and others will take them to supplement other income, or in the case of teens, give them money for movies, etc, doesn't make them any less valid.


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  17. #117
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    Oct. 14, 2003
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    Default I have a friend in a situation similar to your Mom's

    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    I'm sorry to laugh, but I'm laughing a bit because we paid above min wage for new hires for a very low skilled job. AND we offered benefits. And we'd have people no show the first day, lost a third of the training class in a week, and most said it was due to having to show up on a schedule.

    It just makes me laugh. We have all these people who WANT to work out there (supposedly) but we hire folks and they actually DON'T want to work. It's messed up.

    My mom is unemployed right now and wants a full time job. It really bothers me that she can't find something but I could've hired 10 people in a week in her place and none would even show up for day one at above min wage.

    Sorry. Soap box moment.

    We hire about 30 people a week at this time of year. It's always rather frustrating. We just can't get enough people and yet my mom can't find something. <shakes head>
    She's in her late 50s and has had training as a phlebotomist (sp??), medical coder and something else that escapes me, but can't find positions. I think it's her age, but good luck proving that in court. :-( She is dedicated and hard working, but it doesn't seem to matter. So she's still working retail for not much $$.



  18. #118
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    Re: living wages, I started a sh1tstorm at my former place of employment by suggesting that we should be paid a living wage. We were well below the average for our line of work in our area. Needless to say, I wasn't popular w/management, but thank god we got someone on our board (we were a public library) who agreed. Now we can debate the merits of public-sector pay, but trust me, I had a graduate degree as did many of my colleagues and we were paid about 2/3rds what we "should" have been, given regional conditions. Did I go find another job? You betcha. But I'd like to think that my 11 years' experience that walked out the door was a loss to the community.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    You seem to not understand economics. If you increase everyone's wages and give them health insurance/paid vacations, etc, you are going to cause businesses to go under, new investors will not provide funding for start up businesses, people will not want to risk capital starting businesses, prices for goods will skyrocket, and almost every company still left open will only hire part time employees.
    There is a place in the economy for unskilled/entry level jobs that pay min wage. Or even less, in unregulated jobs. The fact that teens, retirees and others will take them to supplement other income, or in the case of teens, give them money for movies, etc, doesn't make them any less valid.
    So then your OK with your taxes supplementing the wages of those companies that choose to pay a non living wage, even though some big box stores (Costco for example) are able to be successful while paying decent wages and benefits.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetjocky View Post
    She's in her late 50s and has had training as a phlebotomist (sp??), medical coder and something else that escapes me, but can't find positions. I think it's her age, but good luck proving that in court. :-( She is dedicated and hard working, but it doesn't seem to matter. So she's still working retail for not much $$.
    Is she up to date on her training? I know the coding changes frequently and underwent a huge change not long ago. I wonder if refresher training would help make her more attractive as a candidate in that field?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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