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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by halo View Post
    You can't have it both ways. You can get your meds there because they are so much cheaper, and then want the strikers to get more money. Its math.
    Uh, yeah, so is "The CEOs do not necessarily have the God-given right to take home pay of a zillion dollars each whilst failing to pay their employees a living wage."
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


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  2. #102
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    You guys are all over Wal Mart for their polices what would you think of a employer who the excs. make 300k and up. with the top guy making over that plus annual raise. While the top of workers earn 12699 a month while their lowest employee earns 1516 with health bennes but no dental included. They might give their an annual raise of .07% if they are lucky well that is not fair sometimes it is more. The workers are expected to be on call 24hrs a day, even on vacation These are the basic if not separated and in not put in harms way. they are not allow to join a union. Are these fair employmemt practices...?
    Friend of bar .ka


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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    You guys are all over Wal Mart for their polices what would you think of a employer who the excs. make 300k and up. with the top guy making over that plus annual raise. While the top of workers earn 12699 a month while their lowest employee earns 1516 with health bennes but no dental included. They might give their an annual raise of .07% if they are lucky well that is not fair sometimes it is more. The workers are expected to be on call 24hrs a day, even on vacation These are the basic if not separated and in not put in harms way. they are not allow to join a union. Are these fair employmemt practices...?
    That's cute - you're comparing military service and the government to WalMart and you were trying to be clever about it.

    That you don't see the difference is really sad.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


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  4. #104
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    Ha! I thought Bumknees was talking about my law firm! Give or take the raises though: I haven't had one in 5 years.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief



  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
    That's cute - you're comparing military service and the government to WalMart and you were trying to be clever about it.

    That you don't see the difference is really sad.
    But thing is I DO see the difference I have lived the difference. It is sad that YOU can justify service to the country and wal mart as one being wrong and the other not. Especially when one came close to shutting down AND not paying its employees last fiscal year but it was planning to pay the top guy.. I don't recall wal mart ever doing that.. But wal mart is wrong in its busness practices when many of its employees are happy.. And many of the military are not allow to state their real feelings.. funny how that works huh.
    Friend of bar .ka


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  6. #106
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    Again, I really don't pretend to have all of the the answers but I think that so many of you are being so narrow minded. You say that the CEOs make "zillions of dollars". Business owners need to be compensated for the risks they take starting and running their businesses. They should be making more than their cashiers! Substantially more.

    I wonder if anyone has ever sat down and figured the economics of paying a "living wage" with benefits to every single person on that Walmart supply chain- from production to cashier. What would that toilet paper cost to the consumer? What would happen if the cost of the goods became so high that no one bought the stuff anymore? And the Walmart closed down, losing all of those now great jobs? Or if the higher prices weren't passed on to the customer and business owners absorbed all of those increases and no longer made lots of money by owning that business? Would they think it was worth it to own the business?

    Great, now we have true equality! No more class warfare! To be honest, I don't think we'd be happy with that world.....


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  7. #107
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    What's missing here is that WalMart has the capability to make its business model work and maintain and even grow its profitability beyond current levels through the simple expedient of changing its benighted labor policies.

    It's easy to get stuck on whatever is happening right now and forget what is hidden. (Like that idiot brand-name economist who argued with a straight face that the horrific destruction of property, infrastructure and wealth from Hurricane Sandy was economically beneficial because repairing all the damage "created" work and demand for construction materials, etc., ignoring what is unseen, namely all the things that would and could have been done with the assets now diverted to trying to get back to where we were before the storm. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable..._broken_window)

    Sure, they can be profitable by abusing their workforce, and they can get away with it for a while when the economy is so sour that many people literally have no alternatives. (Small start-up home businesses can only be viable in communities where a significant part of the community can afford the luxury of paying to have their dogs groomed, or to landscape their yards, or baby-sit, etc., rather than do it themselves or do without, not to mention the entry and associated costs for even the simplest of businesses.)

    But having an engaged positively-motivated workforce that is actively trying to discover efficiencies and smarter ways to work to make the business operate better confers great economic advantage. (Unlike Home Depot, for example, this doesn't exist at WalMart at present. It's difficult to quantify with some metric, but business history demonstrates that it operates effectively where it exists.)

    Also hidden is the cost of having a disgruntled demoralized workforce that expends mental energy otherwise available to grow the business, at best in efforts to cope with the work environment and manage the personal-life stress of having chaotic hours, undependable income, etc.; and at worst harms the business in difficult-to-quantify costs of sabotage, not making the effort to address situations that would require no real effort or inconvenience to take care of, and indifference to the customers.

    Nobody here yet has mentioned that I've seen the other startling working conditions bit I learned and verified by chatting with WalMart employees in various stores, namely that a great many WalMart customers are verbally abusive to even the friendliest of WalMart cashiers, etc.

    I'm not a big advocate of labor unions because so often they turn into a bureaucracy of antagonistic drones and often undermine and destroy the businesses they 'organize' (the UAW pretty well wrecked the US auto industry when the competitive environment made all their costly added fat impossible to maintain) but for certain abuses unions or the threat of them are a valuable countervailing force to management incompetence or arrogance.

    WalMart isn't going out of business because of labor unrest, but I think WalMart's stock price will be punished soon when the razor-thin margins are eroded, as will be earnings, by the inefficiencies that current block-headed management has created.

    Long before anything dire happens to WalMart as an entity, a deteriorating earnings handwriting will be on the wall and even the dolts who inherited Sam Walton's fortune quickly will figure out that they'd better find competent management and change their policies, or eventually the franchise COULD collapse like K-Mart.

    That's what I hope the strike sets in motion.
    If I knew what I were doing, why would I take lessons?

    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein


    9 members found this post helpful.

  8. #108
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    Well, it's a good month to be a Walton nonetheless. The four Walton heirs who own 48% of the company's stock are getting their January dividend payment in December to avoid paying 39.8% on it instead of this year's 15% rate, grabbing a $180 million branch while the rest of us plummet over the fiscal cliff. According to a Nov. 19 New York Times article. That's not the divident payment itself, mind you. That's the savings on the change in tax rates. The actual amount must be TRULY inspirational. So I hope the Wal-Mart workers take heart from this, their sacrifices are not going to waste.


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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    But thing is I DO see the difference I have lived the difference. It is sad that YOU can justify service to the country and wal mart as one being wrong and the other not. Especially when one came close to shutting down AND not paying its employees last fiscal year but it was planning to pay the top guy.. I don't recall wal mart ever doing that.. But wal mart is wrong in its busness practices when many of its employees are happy.. And many of the military are not allow to state their real feelings.. funny how that works huh.
    Ah, yes, the almighty "service to your country". I like it when people spit this phrase out as if it is the end all argument.

    I live just off of one of the largest infantry bases in the country. The crime rate is insane and do you know who the offenders are? 99% of them are enlisted army. They had to shut down the bar that military members used to frequent in my town because there were too many stabbing deaths. No, really. So let's not all pretend that "serving your country" automatically makes a person of value to society.

    Moving on... Enlisted military are paid too little, in a lot of cases. No argument here. That we have members of our military that are eligible for foodstamps is a disgrace.

    However, you can hardly compare the pay disparities between WalMart and the government.

    The President (an elected official, whether you like it or not), get's $300kish a year. Oh, yeah, and he's probably on call 24/7, too. Because, you know, wars and stuff.

    The top Wal Mart exec (nepotism at its finest) takes home $18.7 million a year.

    If we say that the lowest bracket pay for both WalMart and military is comparable, than the disparity is pretty obvious.

    And I'm not going to go into the nuances of government pay scale because it would be a dissertation and I won't get school credit for it.

    But hey, you keep pretending that corporations are people, too.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by bumknees View Post
    You guys are all over Wal Mart for their polices what would you think of a employer who the excs. make 300k and up. with the top guy making over that plus annual raise. While the top of workers earn 12699 a month while their lowest employee earns 1516 with health bennes but no dental included. They might give their an annual raise of .07% if they are lucky well that is not fair sometimes it is more. The workers are expected to be on call 24hrs a day, even on vacation These are the basic if not separated and in not put in harms way. they are not allow to join a union. Are these fair employmemt practices...?
    No, and I suspect you're talking about the military. And it's not fair...it has not been fair for decades.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    Do you really know the facts behind the Hostess closing? That this is the 2nd bankruptcy, that the workers, over the years, have given up pay and benefits? That the corporation was bought out by a private equity firm that loaded it up with more debt and management fees but made no changes to make it more profitable? That before the bankruptcy filing, the CEO was awarded a 300% pay increase and the executives 80 to 100% increases? That the corporation hadn't been paying into the worker's pension fund for a year?

    You can't blame this one on a union...you can blame it on bad management.

    As far as "if things were as bad as the few would tell you, you'd have a lot more people who are actual employees out on strike." They're afraid, afraid of losing the only job they have and maybe the only job available to them...did you forget, we have an unemployment problem.

    Do you not care that the taxpayer has to subsidize the low wage Walmart worker with food stamps, medicaid, housing benefits and tax credits? We pay, we just don't pay at the store.
    The failure of Hostess is properly laid at the doorstep of all parties concerned.

    The public for changed tastes... no transfats, etc

    The gov't for increased regulations and ..."import quotas and domestic production limits boost sugar prices up to three times what's paid outside the U.S"

    Labor for work rules that prevent bread trucks from delivering cake to the same stores as the cake truck just there.

    Management for not seeing the changes and adjusting the business for them. Or maybe they have ... and the solution is: go out of business.


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  12. #112
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    Feb. 15, 2004
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    I am beginning to think some posters own WM stock and are quite happy with the dividends they get. But I am glad to see that it is possible that WM stock will decrease (I have no idea what it is now, I will admit).

    I really do not think we have the same WM mentality in Canada. For one thing, people don't (un)dress the way of the "people of WM". My DIL shops at WM... but by shopping at WM, you are not helping the overall economy because how many "made in the USA" or "made in Canada" are on the shelves, really?

    I have no idea how WM Canada treats their employees, but I never liked the name, the reputation, etc. so I don't go. I don't go to Sears either (distance) but I do not shop much. Groceries, my local pharmacy because we know each other very well, my favourite pet store, two local groceries stores, local lumber store/Home Hardware/Canadian Tire vs HD.


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  13. #113
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    Adamantane, public thumbs up. You stated it so much more eloquently than I!
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  14. #114
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    razor thin margins?

    A family friend who works at a major German retail chain told my dad that the price to ship a bottle of beer from China to Europe equals about one Euro cent....
    the markup on the actual cost of products is amazing.
    My MIL has a friend with a boutique who invites her to go to the wholesale store with her on occasion. A scarf you can expect to pay close to 20 bucks for retail doesn't cost but 3 bucks wholesale. Probably 12-15 at Walmart.

    Much of the Local store policies is up to management. I am sure there are stores better than others.

    but when you look at the people who do work at the stores for long enough that you notice and recognize them, almost all of them are older middle age women form the lower socio-economic end of the population.
    Jobs for that segment of the population are pretty restricted: Standing in an assembly line in a factory, sexing chickens or scrubbing toilets, with the exception of the latter jobs that have been 'outsourced'

    many of these ladies have to work to supplement their SS because, well, they never had the high paying job to stash much away, took time off because they got married (and back then it was still the norm for women to stay home and do the house and raise the kids)

    the guys?
    the cute guy who pushes the carts together usually does not stay long, so do most of the other guys. The exception are the old guys, they already pull down a retirement check and just pass the time....
    or they are in the same boat as the women...

    But where should these people go and work?
    The textile industry used to be big here, but it's gone now.
    So is most everything else that produces anything.

    We have Honda here now....yes, they pay good.
    but when you get hurt you can look at a lot of trouble, too....not an easy place to work at either.

    but the deal is, everybody knows what they sign up for. Like walmart.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutmeg View Post
    Well, it's a good month to be a Walton nonetheless. The four Walton heirs who own 48% of the company's stock are getting their January dividend payment in December to avoid paying 39.8% on it instead of this year's 15% rate, grabbing a $180 million branch while the rest of us plummet over the fiscal cliff. According to a Nov. 19 New York Times article...
    You do know, don't you, that many companies are moving their dividends to all stockholders back into December?
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    But in your example, if they take that job, and stay there, the benefits outweigh the downside. Maybe they like the flexible hrs, closeness to home, etc. Because if they just need to make the equivelant of min wage/part time money, there ARE other things that people can do, even in small towns...cleaning, ironing, embroidery, dog walking, babysitting, pet sitting, car washing, pooper scoopering, distributing flyers for companies, holding signs at the intersections for business ads, window washing, weeding/lawn mowing, snow shoveling, etc. Or a combination of those. In rural areas, field work.
    If it was terrible working there, people would not do it. Because there are other ways to make an equal amount of money.
    I agree that the people who keep working in a job with disintegrating conditions still find it better than an available alternative. But does that mean that the job actually provides them with with what they need? Or, for example, are they choosing between that job plus putting some food and fuel on a credit card because they can't make ends mean and going hungry?

    It's cold comfort to suggest that there aren't adequate and quite inadequate versions of better than a much worse alternative.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMacallister View Post
    The big corporation is mean to me mentality that I am seeing is getting old.
    Let's be clear: The complaint is not that big corporations are "mean." No one genuinely thinks of them has being in a morality race. Corporations exist to make money for their principals and stockholders.

    What people do object to is the gutting of a community for the benefit of a few. They object to the extraordinary concentration of wealth that is currently allowed (and historically has been in other times in US history).

    IMO, what you are seeing is a corporate board that has been insulated from the effects of their actions. No one benefits when consumers can buy their products. So the status quo will go on until the firm is hit in the wallet. Mean? Who gives a sh!t? Neither side cares about that issue.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


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  18. #118
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    Ok I am going to put this out there. I been living in the State of Maine for 4 years. I have worked in places that just treat people worse than Walmart. I seen people got fired for the most silly reasons.

    I have my self got fired not because of my work ethics but because I had a manager son giving me nasty crap how I do my job. All I done is shut up or seen my supervisor.. a week later I got fired for been too chatty. Now they the company refused to speak to the department of labour so I can claim my unemployment for 3 months. I almost lost my home because of them.

    Now Walmart the store I worked at has a good team and we have our issues but in general I find Walmart a safer place to work because they have steps to take before firing anyone compared to most company's I been too. HELL Even a temp worker I out performed the full time workers and got fired because I out done them and made them look bad. This is in Maine btw.

    NOW!! here where I going to say stop the whining! IF they do not like what going on LEAVE! I know Walmart doesn't offer the best wages and benefits but still better than most places that offer. Now i don't care what the CEO makes he running a international company! with a massive staff with pressure to preform for the stock holders.

    Now life can be hard but to look at it this way! If Walmart going to change out they operate then you need to change the culture in the US. People will start seen this and label it socialism and all that crap.

    Hell for starters how about having by law 20 vacation a year? unlike people work for a company 14 years just to get 2-3 weeks a year? Though the might of Walmart they have to do this on there own and fight it out. Unions I hate because they have there own political goals and self interest before the workers... Look at the Royal Mail and the public transport in London.. They increase the costs regardless.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank B View Post
    You do know, don't you, that many companies are moving their dividends to all stockholders back into December?
    The "fiscal cliff" is high political theater, a contrived drama for the talking heads. I find it interesting that the term wasn't even visible until, amazingly, the morning AFTER the election that changed nothing.

    As far as dividends go, they are taxed twice, which is ridiculous. The corporation pays taxes on them and then they are taxed again to the recipient. They should either be tax-free to the corporation or tax-free to the recipient.

    It would be worthwhile noting that by far, retirees and retirement funds are those most impacted by these taxes.
    If I knew what I were doing, why would I take lessons?

    "Things should be as simple as possible,
    but no simpler." - Einstein


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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamantane View Post
    The "fiscal cliff" is high political theater, a contrived drama for the talking heads. I find it interesting that the term wasn't even visible until, amazingly, the morning AFTER the election that changed nothing.

    As far as dividends go, they are taxed twice, which is ridiculous. The corporation pays taxes on them and then they are taxed again to the recipient. They should either be tax-free to the corporation or tax-free to the recipient.

    It would be worthwhile noting that by far, retirees and retirement funds are those most impacted by these taxes.
    I agree that dividends shouldn't be taxed twice...they should have their own category, not be lumped in with capital gains or wages. Carried interest? That baby needs to be taxed as wages.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



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