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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Putting on my best conspiracy theorist hat... I almost wonder if that isn't the plan. When push comes to shove, the "haves" are going to make sure they continue to "have," whether that means death, war, poverty...

    i think lyme and maybe even autism are likely to have been 'planted' in our population already. we know where lyme came from (plum island research lab) but i haven't heard about the origins of autism yet, though the dx numbers are staggering.


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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    There is another side to this - just look at China where they have tried to limit population growth. They now have some major problems. Because the people could abort female fetuses, they now have a very high male to female ratio in the 20 something population. There simply are not enough women to go around. This worries me because historically, countries with these ratios go to war. Just think, all that testosterone and nowhere to go with it.
    Also, Japan has slowed it's population growth and they now have an aging population problem. So although it seems like a simple question and solution, there are far more pieces to this puzzle than is immediately apparent.
    imo if china had reduced births in general this problem wouldn't exist.



  3. #23
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    Beyond population growth and limited resources, anyone else concerned about declining intelligence and ability to support ones self? I am thinking along the lines of the movie Idiocracy. I know a few successful, intelligent couples who did not procreate. In all cases, they pursued education and careers and wanted to be in a good position before having kids. Unfortunately, they waited too long and had fertility issues.

    Meanwhile, I know another couple who, while on gov't assistance, both unemployed, not well educated, etc, PLANNED A PREGNANCY and were ecstatic when they announced that they were expecting another child.

    Even if the kids born to the latter couple are bright, they are at a disadvantaged right from the start.

    I dunno. It just seems like smart, hard working folks need to step it up and try to balance things out--even if that means having to find a work around to limited resources--else we're going to have a world run by idiots.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by suz View Post
    imo if china had reduced births in general this problem wouldn't exist.
    Perhaps so. But the government there gave them "choice" and they exercised it. Should the government have regulated abortions by denying them to the mother of a female fetus? Kind of puts an interesting "spin" on the whole issue, what?

    Intelligent folks (liberal and conservative) like to rely on people making rational choices to further their own self interests. As intelligent folks they know that not only must one consider their own personal circumstances, they must think about the impact of a personal choice on the wider community. It's a "rationalist" approach.

    The reality is that how a person perceives their circumstances, not the objective nature of those circumstances, will govern choices. We spend huge amounts every year on our educational system intending that the system impart to its students the knowledge necessary to understand the difference between subjective and objective analysis and adoption of the objective standard. In reality the educational system has failed mightily in this task. Indeed, we've gone in the opposite direction and encouraged emotional decision making and "hang the consequences" attitude.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    I dunno. It just seems like smart, hard working folks need to step it up and try to balance things out--even if that means having to find a work around to limited resources
    I don't think so... I am not interested in "stepping it up" and procreating for the "good" of society. Instead I think I'll use other things at my disposal (i.e. input into community, politics, what-have-you).

    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    else we're going to have a world run by idiots.
    Um...............
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng


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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by suz View Post
    i think lyme and maybe even autism are likely to have been 'planted' in our population already. we know where lyme came from (plum island research lab) but i haven't heard about the origins of autism yet, though the dx numbers are staggering.
    Where does autism, that has a very large and fuzzy definition, come from here?
    Autism is a complex group of developmental disorders, not at all like Lyme disease.

    "Planted"? Right.


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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheval convert View Post
    There is another side to this - just look at China .... Because the people could abort female fetuses, they now have a very high male to female ratio in the 20 something population. .
    Add India (with another billion)to the list...

    2011 the child sex ratio in India has dropped to 914 females against 1,000 males - the lowest since Independence

    http://articles.economictimes.indiat...les-girl-child



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    --else we're going to have a world run by idiots.
    We're already there! And it's getting worse.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    I know a few successful, intelligent couples who did not procreate. In all cases, they pursued education and careers and wanted to be in a good position before having kids. Unfortunately, they waited too long and had fertility issues...
    I know quite a few, but as they attained financial and career stability, they realized the world had not only become unfit to bring their progeny into, but was getting worse.
    “There are two ways to conquer and enslave a nation. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.”
    John Adams


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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by suz View Post
    i think lyme and maybe even autism are likely to have been 'planted' in our population already. we know where lyme came from (plum island research lab) but i haven't heard about the origins of autism yet, though the dx numbers are staggering.
    Nice conspiracy theory, and I'm not discounting the possibility that the virulence of Lyme may (notice I said my) have something to do with Plum Island, but Lyme has been around for a very long time.

    http://info.nhpr.org/node/3884


    And it's been around for centuries: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8699081

    As far as autism goes, that's another ball of wax, but I've read studies that are showing the age of the father is related to an increase in autism. Couples in the U.S. are having children later and later.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Perhaps so. But the government there gave them "choice" and they exercised it. Should the government have regulated abortions by denying them to the mother of a female fetus? Kind of puts an interesting "spin" on the whole issue, what?

    Intelligent folks (liberal and conservative) like to rely on people making rational choices to further their own self interests. As intelligent folks they know that not only must one consider their own personal circumstances, they must think about the impact of a personal choice on the wider community. It's a "rationalist" approach.

    The reality is that how a person perceives their circumstances, not the objective nature of those circumstances, will govern choices. We spend huge amounts every year on our educational system intending that the system impart to its students the knowledge necessary to understand the difference between subjective and objective analysis and adoption of the objective standard. In reality the educational system has failed mightily in this task. Indeed, we've gone in the opposite direction and encouraged emotional decision making and "hang the consequences" attitude.

    G.
    G, I'm curious if you think are education system has had the most influence on the dumbing down of America, or if it might be more of a media driven problem. We have a strong anti-science movement that is media driven.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  12. #32
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    I think it may be too late to limit population growth in a kind, gentle way- I think we are heading into a series of traumatic die-offs as nature stomps us back. We needed to start promoting "one child is best" and "childless is good" way back before the 50's. Unlike the coercive/force used in china, I think using cultural pressure to express disdain and disgust for those who reproduce too much would go over very well in most societies, if it's done properly.
    as it is, our society still values and pushes reproduction- ask any younger woman about the pressure from everyone, even random strangers, about why you haven't had a baby yet, and the way the childless by choice are treated.
    Why do people get tax credits for children? they should be hit with extra tax for each child that goes WAY up as the number of children goes beyond 2. If you have no children you should get a tax break.
    Most people can't really think beyond their own selfish urges and needs, but if they are surrounded by a culture that says "this is GOOD" they tend to respond. Look at recycling- not long ago, barely heard of; strong cultural pressure, and now you feel guilty if you toss a plastic item in the regular trash.
    Of course we will have to get rid of the ridiculous religious pressures used to limit and restrict access to birth control and abortion. Birth control should be widely available and free, strong funding for research into better types of birth control, and vasectomies should be offered free to all comers.


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  13. #33
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    I don't worry too much about overpopulation in a world where we are so globalized that you can pass any pandemic around in the span of a few days. I don't doubt that in our future, with out being an alarmist, just more of a realist from historical precedent, that we're going to face a global pandemic eventually.

    The Spanish flu in 1918 spread so fast and so hard, hitting those traditionally not affected as badly by flu like the young and healthy. In fact it hit those people harder because their immune systems mounted such a strong reaction it actually worked against them and killed them faster. Now we have world wide travel and unfortunately once a pandemic like that began we'd be basically helpless to stop it until it ran it's course. The Spanish flu killed between 20 and 50 million at a time when the worlds population wasn't yet 2 billion. If it were to happen today by an estimate we'd lost close to 20 million Americans. That is with a pandemic similar to Spanish flu, other variants could be much worse. Nature finds a way of taking your population down and I think we might be in her cross hairs.


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  14. #34
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    While I firmly believe that the earth is overpopulated, and have decided to not add to the overpopulation by procreating, what about the role of science and medicine in keeping people alive longer? It is all interconnected. Antibiotics have greatly increased the human lifespan. Medical technologies have created temporary "cures" (to keep people alive longer, but obviously we all die) for cancer, HIV/AIDS, mental illness; and created vaccines for others.

    I know I sound like a crazy bitch saying this, but in our (the collective we, not each of us individually) "save the world" mentality, we have contributed to the overpopulation problem. Disease, starvation, war - all are historical means of controlling the population. Yet we have to feed the starving, vaccinate the third-world countries, put an end to wars.

    I don't know what the answer is except for me to do my part and not add to over-population and the stuff that comes with it (buying crap, creating more waste, consuming more resources, etc.).
    My Mustang Adventures - Mac, my mustang | Annwylid D'Lite - my Cob filly

    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by alterhorse View Post
    I rather imagine that people will come to recognize a set of fundamental ethical values that might be proven as a valid guide for living through science, and willingly follow them by throughly understanding how following those ethical values eliminates social instability and promotes societal advancement.

    Or some other way where people recognize right from wrong and choose right because they have the intelligence and emotional capacity to overcome their impulsive desires.
    I think this would be the best possible scenario. I also think it's completely impossible. The problem here is you're grossly underestimating the cultural pulls in society, and especially religious ones. Entire (large and powerful) groups of people do not believe in basic scientific principles; much less follow science to decide that what their religion teaches is completely opposite of reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by wendy View Post
    I think it may be too late to limit population growth in a kind, gentle way- I think we are heading into a series of traumatic die-offs as nature stomps us back. We needed to start promoting "one child is best" and "childless is good" way back before the 50's...
    You beat me to it! This is how we change population trends. I'm 23, recently out of college, and still not completely self sufficient from my family (cell phone, insurance, and a place to stay between jobs is still covered). Yet I already feel a major societal push to be married and have kids now (or soon). That's crazy!

    We still grow up with a societal ideal of a family of four. At least now woman can put off children for a career, but we are still expected to have offspring at some point.

    Access to easy and affordable birth control and real/comprehensible sex ed in schools beginning at a very young age is a great first step. The next step is making long term options like vasectomies, IUDs, and tubal ligation available and available to younger patients. A 20-something year old who doesn't want to have kids shouldn’t have to fight with his or doctor about how they "will change their mind later in life." Not everyone has to have kids!

    And finally, I would love to see the adoption process changed somehow, but I don't know enough to say how. I would like to be a mother someday, because I think I will be a good mom and will enjoy it. However, I have never had that desire to give birth to my own child. I would (and will) seriously consider adopting in the future. Unfortunately, everyone I know who has, says it is ridiculously expensive, time consuming, and difficult to navigate. So chances are good that I will end up bringing more lives into this world, even though I would rather not.
    Proud member of the "I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday" clique

    Fourteen Months Living and Working in Costa Rica


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  16. #36
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    I wonder how much that idealization of the traditional "family of four" is a product of television?

    Perhaps I'm strange, but I never, ever, not for even ONE moment, felt the pull of any "biological clock." I knew I wasn't cut out for motherhood (lacking the patience!) by the age of 14, and never really wasted much time dating.

    Independence, money, HORSES!


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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Independence, money, HORSES!

    AGREED!!!!!!!!
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonders12 View Post

    And finally, I would love to see the adoption process changed somehow, but I don't know enough to say how. I would like to be a mother someday, because I think I will be a good mom and will enjoy it. However, I have never had that desire to give birth to my own child. I would (and will) seriously consider adopting in the future. Unfortunately, everyone I know who has, says it is ridiculously expensive, time consuming, and difficult to navigate. So chances are good that I will end up bringing more lives into this world, even though I would rather not.
    Adoptive mom chiming in here. It isn't that difficult. If I can do the paperwork anyone can. Compared to horses the cost is not "ridiculously expensive" nor is the process time consuming. and it is totally worth while.


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