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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    I can appreciate your belief. I have one question though, are you receptive to hearing about someone else's religion and their attempt to convert you? Just curious.
    For myself, I am perfectly willing to hear somebody else's point of view on religion as well as them listening to mine. People who disagree at the beginning, middle, and end of a conversation can actually have a civil, intelligent discussion and leave with neither of them offended.

    Case in point, not talking about religion itself here but about civil and bilateral discussion of differences: In college senior year, I shared an apartment with two other girls. I am Baptist, raised in the Bible belt. Another was flavor-of-the-week; she changed what she was exploring all the time. The third one was an atheist but also was a lesbian. She was a total out-there lesbian, too. Never was a closet she was in.

    I think homosexuality is a sin. I don't think it's more of a sin than adultery or other sins, but I do think it's a sin. The people always quoting Jesus on stone-throwing in the story of the woman in adultery somehow never go on just a few lines to what he said to that woman: "Go and sin no more." I'm sure I'll get a bunch of thumbs down on this, but I do think it is a sin. I have known many homosexuals, have been good friends with several, and loved and appreciated them as people, equal value with other people, but I think that that lifestyle is a sin.

    By the way, this does not mean I am "afraid" of it. I think phrasing a different opinion than yours as a "phobia" is a cheap linguistic attempt to discredit the position. Surprise, it is possible to have people disagree with you who are intelligent, who have thought out their positions, and who simply see things differently than you do.

    Anyway, back to senior year. Of course, having the two of us share an apartment was something that some people on campus, knowing both of our backgrounds, thought was a recipe for disaster. I don't know why. I had many fascinating and yes, bilateral conversations with Heather specifically on the subject of homosexuality over the year. She would initiate as many as I did. No voice was ever raised. Nobody's mind was changed, but we sure had a better appreciation for how the other side thinks (and that the other side DOES think, something that people again too often try to dismiss, just saying those disagreeing with them aren't intelligent/educated enough). Heather actually told me on more than one occasion that she enjoyed discussing it with me because we COULD have an adult discussion about opposing viewpoints. We lived together that whole year. Nobody killed the other. Nobody yelled at the other. Nobody got violent, in spite of Bluey's position that my fundamental background had been perfect preparation for me to kill abortion doctors, homos, and assorted others.

    I believed it was a sin. She did not. We had many discussions on that, still disagreed, lived in peace, and parted friends at the end of the year.

    Being a Christian does not mean that you have switched your mind off at the door or that you cannot abide even hearing of another viewpoint. For me, it has meant that I personally do not agree with most other viewpoints, though many of them I have found fascinating, and I never minded giving the other person their turn or talking about it, provided I had time and they were civil.

    But if you ask me my beliefs, I will mention Jesus. If you ask what I think of homosexuality, I will say I believe it is a sin. If you ask what I think of abortion, I would say that I am MOSTLY pro-life (exceptions for rape and risk to life of mother, though myself on the rape issue, and yes there was a time the possibility of having to put action to that belief came up, I personally would carry and put the kid up for adoption). I assume that if you asked what I believe about XYZ, you are capable of accepting my honest answer without picking up rocks yourself.

    Fire away. Wonder how many thumbs-down for this one?


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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SendenHorse View Post
    I now found it in progressive christianity that also embraces themes of buddist teaachings...I found more about God/kindness/faith/spirituality in my study of meditation then I did at church. I guess I'm just not one to fit the mold....

    In my humble opinion Jesus would be more in line with a buddist monk then a Vote your Values political figure but again, my own personal view....
    I'm more in line with Progressive Christianity also than anything else. I have a book to recommend to you called "The Wisdom Jesus" which looks at his teachings from a "wisdom" perspective. It is a refreshing book that I think you'll like.



  3. #103
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    ---"
    -
    -
    Nobody got violent, in spite of Bluey's position that my fundamental background had been perfect preparation for me to kill abortion doctors, homos, and assorted others.
    -
    -
    "---

    Reading this, I wonder if I didn't make myself clear enough?
    I stated those prone to overreacting would go on to be violent, following ANY religion.
    Not that anyone following any religion will become violent.

    Do I need to give examples?
    There are plenty, looking back at several thousand years of history, some very recent.
    Any one with total power is scary, including those driven or using religions for their power, as we well know.

    Hope that explains this better.



  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    For myself, I am perfectly willing to hear somebody else's point of view on religion as well as them listening to mine. People who disagree at the beginning, middle, and end of a conversation can actually have a civil, intelligent discussion and leave with neither of them offended.

    Case in point, not talking about religion itself here but about civil and bilateral discussion of differences: In college senior year, I shared an apartment with two other girls. I am Baptist, raised in the Bible belt. Another was flavor-of-the-week; she changed what she was exploring all the time. The third one was an atheist but also was a lesbian. She was a total out-there lesbian, too. Never was a closet she was in.

    I think homosexuality is a sin. I don't think it's more of a sin than adultery or other sins, but I do think it's a sin. The people always quoting Jesus on stone-throwing in the story of the woman in adultery somehow never go on just a few lines to what he said to that woman: "Go and sin no more." I'm sure I'll get a bunch of thumbs down on this, but I do think it is a sin. I have known many homosexuals, have been good friends with several, and loved and appreciated them as people, equal value with other people, but I think that that lifestyle is a sin.

    By the way, this does not mean I am "afraid" of it. I think phrasing a different opinion than yours as a "phobia" is a cheap linguistic attempt to discredit the position. Surprise, it is possible to have people disagree with you who are intelligent, who have thought out their positions, and who simply see things differently than you do.

    Anyway, back to senior year. Of course, having the two of us share an apartment was something that some people on campus, knowing both of our backgrounds, thought was a recipe for disaster. I don't know why. I had many fascinating and yes, bilateral conversations with Heather specifically on the subject of homosexuality over the year. She would initiate as many as I did. No voice was ever raised. Nobody's mind was changed, but we sure had a better appreciation for how the other side thinks (and that the other side DOES think, something that people again too often try to dismiss, just saying those disagreeing with them aren't intelligent/educated enough). Heather actually told me on more than one occasion that she enjoyed discussing it with me because we COULD have an adult discussion about opposing viewpoints. We lived together that whole year. Nobody killed the other. Nobody yelled at the other. Nobody got violent, in spite of Bluey's position that my fundamental background had been perfect preparation for me to kill abortion doctors, homos, and assorted others.

    I believed it was a sin. She did not. We had many discussions on that, still disagreed, lived in peace, and parted friends at the end of the year.

    Being a Christian does not mean that you have switched your mind off at the door or that you cannot abide even hearing of another viewpoint. For me, it has meant that I personally do not agree with most other viewpoints, though many of them I have found fascinating, and I never minded giving the other person their turn or talking about it, provided I had time and they were civil.

    But if you ask me my beliefs, I will mention Jesus. If you ask what I think of homosexuality, I will say I believe it is a sin. If you ask what I think of abortion, I would say that I am MOSTLY pro-life (exceptions for rape and risk to life of mother, though myself on the rape issue, and yes there was a time the possibility of having to put action to that belief came up, I personally would carry and put the kid up for adoption). I assume that if you asked what I believe about XYZ, you are capable of accepting my honest answer without picking up rocks yourself.

    Fire away. Wonder how many thumbs-down for this one?
    You get a public thumbs up from me. If I'm correctly interpreting what you're saying...you realize that what you believe works for you, you would like others to be exposed to what you believe, you would be happy if they converted, but they're entitled to their own beliefs. Do I have that right?

    Next question, do you believe that LGBT should be able to marry in a civil marriage?
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    You get a public thumbs up from me. If I'm correctly interpreting what you're saying...you realize that what you believe works for you, you would like others to be exposed to what you believe, you would be happy if they converted, but they're entitled to their own beliefs. Do I have that right?

    Next question, do you believe that LGBT should be able to marry in a civil marriage?
    Exactly on the summary.

    About LGBT, I think they should be allowed to have civil unions, yes.

    I do not think they should be allowed full and equivalent marriages, because I believe marriage IS a religious issue, established originally by God and unable to be divorced completely from Him because it belongs to Him by virtue of authorship, though many folks do definitely try to achieve that separation.


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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    Exactly on the summary.

    About LGBT, I think they should be allowed to have civil unions, yes.

    I do not think they should be allowed full and equivalent marriages, because I believe marriage IS a religious issue, established originally by God and unable to be divorced completely from Him because it belongs to Him by virtue of authorship, though many folks do definitely try to achieve that separation.
    Is it the word marriage that you don't want used in a same sex marriage, or is it idea of a marriage performed in your faith or in the faith of others. What about other religions that may not worship your God?
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  7. #107
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    It's the term marriage. I think that marriage is God's property.

    Think of it like horses. I believe that the horse is a creation of God - and an awesome one at that. Other people believe that the horse just happened. Some tribes believe that the horse has mythical qualities and is even a god itself.

    I fully support their right to believe differently than I do. I think God Himself fully supports our right to believe differently - that's called free will. He supported it strongly enough that He gave it to people instead of making us just robots.

    However, the fact that I believe you have the right to believe differently does not mean that I believe that while my horse is a creation of God, my neighbor who believes differently has a horse who just happened randomly, somebody else's horse is a mythical being, etc. Nope, believing that horses are a creation of God, I believe that your horse also is a creation of God, as are the horses in pastures along the roadway, as are all horses. I think you have the right to believe differently, but whether you believe the same or differently, that won't impact my own beliefs about the origin of your horse.


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    It's the term marriage. I think that marriage is God's property.

    Think of it like horses. I believe that the horse is a creation of God - and an awesome one at that. Other people believe that the horse just happened. Some tribes believe that the horse has mythical qualities and is even a god itself.

    I fully support their right to believe differently than I do. I think God Himself fully supports our right to believe differently - that's called free will. He supported it strongly enough that He gave it to people instead of making us just robots.

    However, the fact that I believe you have the right to believe differently does not mean that I believe that while my horse is a creation of God, my neighbor who believes differently has a horse who just happened randomly, somebody else's horse is a mythical being, etc. Nope, believing that horses are a creation of God, I believe that your horse also is a creation of God, as are the horses in pastures along the roadway, as are all horses. I think you have the right to believe differently, but whether you believe the same or differently, that won't impact my own beliefs about the origin of your horse.
    They let atheists marry. And Buddhists. And wiccans. Even satan worshippers. Why are they allowed but gays are not? Things that make you go hmm...


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  9. #109
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    I believe in God, but don't believe in organized religion. Too many wars are fought, people killed in the name of religion.
    I think it would be funny to get to heaven, and be greeted by someone who introduces himself to the christians as God, Muslims as Allah, etc. One god that goes by all of those other names.


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  10. #110
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    Jetsmom, the God of the Muslims, Jews and Christians is the same God. Always has been accepted as such. The Muslims accept Jesus as a Prophet but not as the Messiah, Son of God, or savior as Christians do but they acknowledge that he existed. The Jews feel the same way about Jesus I believe.

    I actually believe as a more progressive Christian that there are many paths to enlightenment and while I choose the teachings of Christ to find my way, someone else may choose a different path...that's OK. To me, what I think is important is to believe in a higher power and to be on a spiritual journey of some point in your life. I feel sorry for folks who believe in nothing greater than themselves honestly.

    I did study Wicca for a while and a enjoyed learning from their beliefs but all it did was add to my own fundamentally Christian viewpoint.



  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    It's the term marriage. I think that marriage is God's property.

    Think of it like horses. I believe that the horse is a creation of God - and an awesome one at that. Other people believe that the horse just happened. Some tribes believe that the horse has mythical qualities and is even a god itself.

    I fully support their right to believe differently than I do. I think God Himself fully supports our right to believe differently - that's called free will. He supported it strongly enough that He gave it to people instead of making us just robots.

    However, the fact that I believe you have the right to believe differently does not mean that I believe that while my horse is a creation of God, my neighbor who believes differently has a horse who just happened randomly, somebody else's horse is a mythical being, etc. Nope, believing that horses are a creation of God, I believe that your horse also is a creation of God, as are the horses in pastures along the roadway, as are all horses. I think you have the right to believe differently, but whether you believe the same or differently, that won't impact my own beliefs about the origin of your horse.
    That analogy won't work. You believe that your horse and my horse were created by God. That's fine. I believe that my horse was created by other horses (and, from a bigger perspective, evolution and selective/planned breeding by humans). No problem so far. But, making this analogy between horses and marriage would mean that your belief that my horse was created by God extends to the term "horse" being the province of God and that I must call my horse something other than a "horse".

    On the term "marriage". I am an atheist, my husband is Catholic (obviously not a super strict one ). We were married by a JOP. No church was party to our union or is officially aware of our union. Yet, the license and certificate contain the word "marriage". The state and federal governments and our employers consider us to be "married" and we receive all the rights that that entails. We are allowed to use the term "marriage" despite having no religious recognition of that "marriage". I've never heard of anyone objecting to our use of this term on religious grounds, because the term "marriage" is not reserved for church sanctioned weddings.

    So back to the analogy. You have every right to believe that my "marriage" is not a "marriage", but something else, because the term marriage is the province of God and God wasn't officially involved in my union. Personally, I don't mind if someone else has a different term for it. But, you cannot expect to stop me, or the government or anyone else from calling my union a "marriage". Just like you'd be free to believe that my horse is not a "horse", but you could not expect to prevent me from referring to my horse as a horse and registering it with the appropriate organization as a "horse".


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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by dressagetraks View Post
    It's the term marriage. I think that marriage is God's property.

    Think of it like horses. I believe that the horse is a creation of God - and an awesome one at that. Other people believe that the horse just happened. Some tribes believe that the horse has mythical qualities and is even a god itself.

    I fully support their right to believe differently than I do. I think God Himself fully supports our right to believe differently - that's called free will. He supported it strongly enough that He gave it to people instead of making us just robots.

    However, the fact that I believe you have the right to believe differently does not mean that I believe that while my horse is a creation of God, my neighbor who believes differently has a horse who just happened randomly, somebody else's horse is a mythical being, etc. Nope, believing that horses are a creation of God, I believe that your horse also is a creation of God, as are the horses in pastures along the roadway, as are all horses. I think you have the right to believe differently, but whether you believe the same or differently, that won't impact my own beliefs about the origin of your horse.
    So if you if your religious beliefs dictate that marriage is a gift from God, what about Hindu marriage or any other polytheistic religion with multiple gods. Do you consider that a marriage? Or does a marriage have to be blessed by any god. What about religions that don't consider homosexuality a sin? Is that a legal marriage then?
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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    So if you if your religious beliefs dictate that marriage is a gift from God, what about Hindu marriage or any other polytheistic religion with multiple gods. Do you consider that a marriage? Or does a marriage have to be blessed by any god. What about religions that don't consider homosexuality a sin? Is that a legal marriage then?
    The elephant in the room when discussing with the faithful is that they want everyone else to follow the rules their beliefs ask them to follow.
    Oh, they will beat their chest that they are open minded and all is ok, but when you pin them down, when it comes time to vote for social issues like abortion or gay marriage or any other that restricts other's choices in their lives, they will brandish their faith's requirements as universal.
    They then excuse themselves voting against any such behind their faith, even very well knowing their faith has nothing to do with how others may choose to live.

    Several recent neurobiology studies have made it clear that rational thinking works thru first input from the primitive emotional centers, that gets filtered time and again thru the more evolved emotional centers, to finally be handled by the frontal cortex.
    In people of faith, there is a short circuit when thoughts about their faith come thru the second emotional center.
    Those thoughts are distorted and don't quite make it out of the frontal cortex as other thoughts do, so the individuals tend to act more on their emotions.

    That has been considered an evolutionary advantage.
    People so wired are more apt to cooperate and be part of their culture, society, human group.
    Our thoughts have evolved to put the good of the whole, what we call spirituality is part of it, ahead of basic needs, more in some individuals, less in others.

    Taking that into consideration, we can see why those that feel so committed to any one faith become so intransigent, while finding ways to explain why they are so unlike the rest of their thoughts, when it comes to the dictates of their faith, many times irrational ones, such as who should others marry.

    That at least is what is happening around here, in the depth of the Bible Belt.
    We have here an interesting situation, where we can see where religion is bringing the good in so many to grease society's inner workings and also the worst, as that same religion manipulates them into illogical tenets.
    "Shun the unbeliever" is expressed here at it's clearest, while everyone is insisting they are not, as we can see right on this thread.


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  14. #114
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    Isn't it interesting that the intolerant religious have the same pseudo-intellectual discussion about non-religious that intolerant non-religious have about the religious? What they have in common is that neither group can fathom how normal, intelligent individuals can come to a different understanding than they. So they seek out some scientific/intellectual rationale. This seems easier to accept than simply that this other person has come to his conclusions with as much thought as you came to yours.

    JMO of course.
    Paula

    PS Pardon my nitpicking, but the word is through.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Isn't it interesting that the intolerant religious have the same pseudo-intellectual discussion about non-religious that intolerant non-religious have about the religious? What they have in common is that neither group can fathom how normal, intelligent individuals can come to a different understanding than they. So they seek out some scientific/intellectual rationale. This seems easier to accept than simply that this other person has come to his conclusions with as much thought as you came to yours.

    JMO of course.
    Paula

    PS Pardon my nitpicking, but the word is through.
    Except that there are more and more studies showing how our brains work when faith is involved.
    While we are free to have all and any beliefs and opinions we want, when data is involved, we don't get to choose, either way, for or against what we want to believe.


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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Except that there are more and more studies showing how our brains work when faith is involved.
    While we are free to have all and any beliefs and opinions we want, when data is involved, we don't get to choose, either way, for or against what we want to believe.
    Yes, Bluey, I've read those studies, but although correlation has been proved, I've seen nothing that shows causation. It's the old chicken and the egg story.

    Perhaps their brains are wired that way BECAUSE of their religion, not they chose their religious beliefs because of their brain wiring. Nature vs nuture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Except that there are more and more studies showing how our brains work when faith is involved.
    While we are free to have all and any beliefs and opinions we want, when data is involved, we don't get to choose, either way, for or against what we want to believe.

    EXACTLY the same discussion.

    Paula
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  18. #118
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    I do not think they should be allowed full and equivalent marriages, because I believe marriage IS a religious issue
    yes, YOU believe that, so go right ahead and don't marry a same-sex partner- but why do you feel you're entitled to inflict your religious beliefs on others? which is what you are doing. You are saying "They", who don't share your beliefs, should be forced to follow your beliefs. Not only is this an expression of hatred and intolerance, it's ILLEGAL in the US where we are free to not be forced to follow other people's religious beliefs. Even if you firmly believe that homosexuality is a sin, your obligation as a US citizen is to first and foremost protect and uphold the US constitution and protect the rights of your fellow citizens.

    If we can get rid of the mainstream churches we can break up their power- and thus we will no longer be in danger of people trying to force a particular religious belief on everyone else.
    Which is why I'm very pleased everytime we see new statistics indicating fewer and fewer people attend church regularly, and the "alternative" religions keep growing in popularity, and most people don't actually believe anything, really.

    Oh, and people don't "believe" in evolution. Evolution is science- it's a theory that best explains all of the evidence. Thus it is taught to children, as it should be. People only "believe" in things that don't have any evidence to support them, like myths about a god creating the world in seven days. If there was any actual evidence supporting the idea, you wouldn't have to "believe" in it. It would just be.


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  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Except that there are more and more studies showing how our brains work when faith is involved.
    While we are free to have all and any beliefs and opinions we want, when data is involved, we don't get to choose, either way, for or against what we want to believe.
    This is not unique to matters of religious faith. Studies have also shown that people do indeed chose what they want to believe even when presented with data. For example, I can hand you a stack of scientific publications in which one researcher has concluded that the data of Dr. X clearly shows that A+B=C while another researcher has concluded that the data of Dr. X clearly shows that A+B does not equal C. Witness the whole global warming debate - two diametrically opposed sides with equally qualified scientists on both sides looking at exactly the same basic data.

    This has been a really interesting discussion. I've enjoyed reading it. And Jazzy Lady, I've loved every one of your posts. (FWIW, I'm an agnostic libertarian.)



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    And on a lighter note: I keep reading that church as the Drunkard brethren. Was wondering if it was a shoot off of AA groups.


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