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  1. #81
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    I can understand your thoughts on that Blugal. But, in this case, I just don't trust their veracity. And! Instead of discussing it (I don't wish to hurt feelings unnecessarily), I'll just move on.

    I do think there have been many good conversations during this OT Day though. I have enjoyed talking with many
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Under your profile, there is also a real "ignore" tab, for those of a more sensitive nature.
    Hope that helped.

    LOL!! Thanks, I was wondering if that thing was still around. I just may do that.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  3. #83
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    Twotrudoc- I often do not agree with your political views, but I have never put you or anyone on ignore, nor have I thumbed down a single poster on COTH since the inception of that "tool". I'm sorry you feel that I've done this to you. I have received numerous oddly placed good and bad posting notifications, and wish it would go away. I hope you see my honesty, as I strive hard to be an honest, forthright person of open-mindedness. I try hard to listen to (and read) opposing viewpoints here and in my "real life". I am a fairly sensitive person who likes to be liked, and I try to show that to others.
    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzy Lady View Post
    I believe that the world was created by God. I believe in creation. So because I believe that instead of the big bang theory, or evolution, my beliefs don't matter and I shouldn't be able to tell others what I believe?

    But because YOU believe in evolution, you think that it is what should be taught as the way the world began.

    I get it. You don't want anything other than what you believe to be taught or thought about or even considered as a possibility, but far be it for us to believe in what we do because according to you we're wrong.

    So, you don't really believe in freedom of religion or speech at all then.

    ETA: This was directed at LauraKY
    No, you are free to think exactly what you think, but when you're teaching my child in school, you'd better bet your _ _ _ it's based on current scientific theory, not religious myth. You want to teach religion, I'm all for a religion class that teaches about some of the more popular religions. I'd like to see it a required course.

    Teaching evolution has nothing to do with freedom of speech or thought. Religion has no place in a biology class. Don't believe in evolution? Don't use antibiotics.

    You want to teach in an anti-science manner, go for it...send your kids to a private religious school. Totally up to you. But then, (unless you live in some certain southern states) don't expect my tax dollars to pay for it.

    It is about freedom...my freedom from your religious beliefs.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Here you go, from the United States History for Religious Schools, a textbook that is being used in Louisiana.

    http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marb...na-tax-dollars

    Moving beyond the statement that man walked with dinosaurs, we have the Great Depression was mostly a scam, the KKK were reformers. One of my all time favorites is:

    "Unlike the 'modern math' theorists, who believe that mathematics is a creation of man and thus arbitrary and relative, A Beka Book teaches that the laws of mathematics are a creation of God and thus absolute…A Beka Book provides attractive, legible, and workable traditional mathematics texts that are not burdened with modern theories such as set theory."—ABeka.com

    Guess we don't need that old abstract algebra or discrete math. What the fruitbat?
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #86
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    You know Laura, I think many people in this thread have been really respectful to each other while trying to prove their point, but I don't find that in you at all.

    Christians are being told we're wrong, that what we believe is a myth. That religion inspires hate and intolerance, yet, you seem to be showing that more than anyone else in the thread. You have a very big chip on your shoulder about "religion" and it seems that you think you have the right to discount someone else's belief system because of that. Who is being intolerant in this thread?

    We've been able to maintain a pretty good conversation going here without outright bashing someone else, or telling them they are wrong and they believe in myths.

    Evolution is taught in schools. Religion is not, except in classes devoted to that. That's how it is. I DID go to a privately funded Christian elementary school and a public high school. Evolution was taught in high school. I never once said that religion should be taught in schools instead of evolution, what I am saying is that religious ideas should not be suppressed by those who have them. I believe that people should be aware of different religions/ideas and know the basis for all of them so they can make an informed decision as to what they want to believe for themselves. I don't think any thought process should be forced on anyone.

    If you actually took the time to read the entire thread, you'd see that I am a Canadian. A liberal Christian Canadian who also believes that church and state should be separated. TRUE freedom is accepting everyone for their own beliefs while forming your own and not thinking less of someone because they have a different system than your own.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulaedwina View Post
    Just chiming in to say I am a Plain Quaker who belongs to a liberal Meeting, but recently began to attend a Dunkard Brethren church here in Chambersburg, PA. I love it because I've been Plain for a while, but not part of a Plain community. I go every Sunday, and attend evening Meetings when I can. I find the process uplifting and the fellowship amazing. I do still attend my Quaker Meeting on occasion.

    I think Chambersburg, PA is a ways for you isn't it?

    Paula
    That's neat that you are attending a Brethren Church and like it so much. Thanks for sharing that! I'm about 5 hours from Chambersburg, PA area unfortunately. I found one out on the outer shore but that is a good haul from here too. I'm way down in the SE Tidewater area.



  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzy Lady View Post
    You know Laura, I think many people in this thread have been really respectful to each other while trying to prove their point, but I don't find that in you at all.

    Christians are being told we're wrong, that what we believe is a myth. That religion inspires hate and intolerance, yet, you seem to be showing that more than anyone else in the thread. You have a very big chip on your shoulder about "religion" and it seems that you think you have the right to discount someone else's belief system because of that. Who is being intolerant in this thread?

    We've been able to maintain a pretty good conversation going here without outright bashing someone else, or telling them they are wrong and they believe in myths.

    Evolution is taught in schools. Religion is not, except in classes devoted to that. That's how it is. I DID go to a privately funded Christian elementary school and a public high school. Evolution was taught in high school. I never once said that religion should be taught in schools instead of evolution, what I am saying is that religious ideas should not be suppressed by those who have them. I believe that people should be aware of different religions/ideas and know the basis for all of them so they can make an informed decision as to what they want to believe for themselves. I don't think any thought process should be forced on anyone.

    If you actually took the time to read the entire thread, you'd see that I am a Canadian. A liberal Christian Canadian who also believes that church and state should be separated. TRUE freedom is accepting everyone for their own beliefs while forming your own and not thinking less of someone because they have a different system than your own.
    Well, you see that's not true in the U.S. Many schools in Kentucky refuse to teach evolution at all. My daughter's university has required a biology course as a gen ed requirement because so few students come to college without having been taught evolution.

    Read the Mother Jones article I posted...this is what some religious schools in Louisiana are teaching...and they're receiving state voucher funds.

    I'm sorry if you took offense, but you claimed that I didn't respect your freedom of thought or speech, and that it just not true.

    I'm also sorry if you are offended by my use of the word "myth". The definition of myth: a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    3 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
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    Laura, you and I need to switch locales. I would love to live in KY (Lexington!! WOOT!) and you would love liberal western WA.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    I think I will just not have any conversation with you

    While you say you don't, the timing was more than coincidental. I hope you can understand that it points to you using that as some sort of weird passive aggressive thing and I really disagree with that behavior. I'd rather just not interact.
    Oh ,but there are plenty of people who don't agree with you and would be more than willing to give you many thumbs down. It's the nature of the topic, and the ease of the notifications. To try to blame it on one person seems a little paranoid, IMHO.

    Calvincrowe has always been a very logical poster. She is one of the "sane" ones.

    Your post on what is lacking in education and blaming it on teachers is a bit offensive. Teachers these days have so much to overcome, it's not even funny. The ones that stick with it for years and years are true heroes. No matter if they are teaching evolution or creationism or evlutionary creationism, etc.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Rugbug, Calvin and I have discussed it through PM and I agree she did not do that. I am only bringing it up here as it was originally brought up here.

    As far as the educational dilemma, I have always had opinions about it and now that I am in position to hear the insights of those in higher education, I have to say I agree whole heartedly that K-12 is not meeting the educational needs of America today. We have a diverse and unusual population that we need to take care of. Trying to "go back to the 50s" does not solve the issue and pasting over everything with "feel good fluffy" policies does not either.

    Please keep in mind that I interact with the college age kids every working day and see with my own eyes how we have failed to equip and educate our children.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  12. #92
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief2 View Post
    Reality in the area of my hometown has taken on a strange twist. After waves and waves of Catholic church closings, and years of petitioning the Vatican for decision reversals by dedicated parishioners, suddenly, a few of them are reopening. At first it seemed too good to be true, and the parishioners were overjoyed. Then, with the trial of the pope's butler for leaking documents, the whole story was pieced together.

    Seems a cardinal went into cahoots with his relative a real estate agent, and together they sold the churches to CVS/Walgreens/etc, and they both pocketed the money, turning a deaf ear to parishioners who were heartbroken at seeing their mortgage-paid-for churches sold, stripped and then put to the wreaking ball so a pharmacy could go up in its place. With the revelation of the sleight of hand now visible, town leaders with closed for-sale churches still standing in their towns decided to offer the recalcitrant bishops and cardinals an offer they couldn't refuse: open the churches for a weekly mass, or pay taxes on the land that is no longer being used for religious purposes as of December 1st. And Glory Be!, the closed churches that the Vatican had ordered open but the bishops and cardinals refused to heed the order are now being re-opened on December 1st for one weekly mass, weddings, baptisms and funerals. The parishioners who remained faithful are not quite so joyous now that the real story has been exposed, but are planning to attend mass there anyway. Whether the former parishioners who transferred to other parishes will return remains to be seen. Money talks, bs walks. It takes a lot of chutzpah to pull this $hit off time and time again on these people.

    May God bless the butler.
    WOW
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  13. #93
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    many many many christians believe in evolution, are scientists, and all that....I know, hard to believe LOL.... Christians come in all forms... not just white suburban, hetrosexual, republican-voting anti abortion types...

    I'm a scientist and I find the lack of knowledge about things like stem cells, DNA, etc simply shocking and quite sad. Its possible to be both a christian and embrace facts/reason/knowledge and MYSTERY.

    Of course you won't fine ME in church, but that is a different story...I was very very hard core until the funamentalists drove me out with their judgement and limited view of the world...it had nothing to do with science by the way, just can't put myself out there to be criticised for a different slant on things. Oh, and eventually found sermons to be mind-numbingly boring after awhile...I wanted something new....

    I now found it in progressive christianity that also embraces themes of buddist teaachings...I found more about God/kindness/faith/spirituality in my study of meditation then I did at church. I guess I'm just not one to fit the mold....

    In my humble opinion Jesus would be more in line with a buddist monk then a Vote your Values political figure but again, my own personal view....


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Here's a thought. Are colleges still educating students the same way they did in the '50's? Lecture, lecture, notes, exam? Oddly, K-12 schools have moved away from that. What business needs today are workers who can think, communicate in a group, follow directions and work to a deadline, but also be innovative problem solvers and independent action takers. I know that many "blue collar" industrial jobs require high degrees of math and experience---but few colleges (let alone high schools) have the industrial math and science programs needed for that. Public schools cut those programs in favor of...basic readin' and math. Less emphasis is also placed on writing, at least in our state right now.

    I think the advent of the Common Core Standards across the US is a step in the right direction. America is still the nation of innovative entrepreneurs and science. The best and the brightest still come here to attend our colleges and work in our medical and computer industries. We are doing many things right.
    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!



  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    As far as the educational dilemma, I have always had opinions about it and now that I am in position to hear the insights of those in higher education, I have to say I agree whole heartedly that K-12 is not meeting the educational needs of America today. We have a diverse and unusual population that we need to take care of. Trying to "go back to the 50s" does not solve the issue and pasting over everything with "feel good fluffy" policies does not either.
    I agree that we aren't meeting the educational Ned's of today's children...however, as a former, short tern teacher...a lot of the blame needs to be laid on the parenting techniques, or lack thereof, of today. I just finished a fun and surprisingly thoughtful* look at what teaching has become...and it gave me even more sympathy for our teachers today and what they go through.




    *i say at because it was a book by Tony Danza and not really what I expected from him.
    Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
    Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"



  16. #96
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    Yes for University students, which tend to be those who have the perk of knowing how to fit into the college atmosphere already through (various reasons, money, social standing, networking, etc). But our main workforce fit in more with our community college and technical schools. I completely agree with this--

    "What business needs today are workers who can think, communicate in a group, follow directions and work to a deadline, but also be innovative problem solvers and independent action takers"

    Our State is reducing funding for community and technical colleges and asking tough questions about results. They want results! I agree, our tax money needs to be accounted for and our students are simply not equipped to get into Math 99 or ENGL 101. These are the basic classes that teach the fundamentals for our science, engineering, teaching, business, etc., programs.

    It's just not about the '50s, it's about today. 31% cannot test into college level Math and English

    http://www.usnews.com/education/blog...college-career
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  17. #97
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    This thread is very interesting and I love reading debates like this where everyone is so civil.

    I don't have time to write a long post debating everything, so I will just address snippets of the debate.

    I am an evangelical Christian and I believe in both Creation and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. PM me and I can recommend some great books if you are interested in learning more about that. Many Christians struggle with the belief that the bible is the true & literal word from God, but the Creation story and evolution are portrayed as opposing viewpoints. And I am not some sheltered kid who doesn't know any better ;-). Bachelor's in Biology & working on my DVM.

    I think there is a false dichotomy in our American lives between religious life & secular work. There's a great Bono quote that I can't find right now, but it basically says "If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord & savior, and you believe in Heaven and Hell, how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them about Jesus?" The Bible commands us to share Jesus' love with others and I would be disobeying God if I only prayed in the solitude of my own home and never talked about religion with people. I am a shy person and definitely not abrasive about it, but I try my hardest to engage people in civil conversations about Christianity and religion.

    There are plenty of tough moral topics to wrestle with in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that I should reject it because I don't understand everything.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #98
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    This thread is very interesting and I love reading debates like this where everyone is so civil.

    I don't have time to write a long post debating everything, so I will just address snippets of the debate.

    I am an evangelical Christian and I believe in both Creation and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. PM me and I can recommend some great books if you are interested in learning more about that. Many Christians struggle with the belief that the bible is the true & literal word from God, but the Creation story and evolution are portrayed as opposing viewpoints. And I am not some sheltered kid who doesn't know any better ;-). Bachelor's in Biology & working on my DVM.

    I think there is a false dichotomy in our American lives between religious life & secular work. There's a great Bono quote that I can't find right now, but it basically says "If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord & savior, and you believe in Heaven and Hell, how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them about Jesus?" The Bible commands us to share Jesus' love with others and I would be disobeying God if I only prayed in the solitude of my own home and never talked about religion with people. I am a shy person and definitely not abrasive about it, but I try my hardest to engage people in civil conversations about Christianity and religion.

    There are plenty of tough moral topics to wrestle with in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that I should reject it because I don't understand everything.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    Laura, you and I need to switch locales. I would love to live in KY (Lexington!! WOOT!) and you would love liberal western WA.
    We're planning on moving back to Maryland when my husband retires.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abberlaze View Post
    This thread is very interesting and I love reading debates like this where everyone is so civil.

    I don't have time to write a long post debating everything, so I will just address snippets of the debate.

    I am an evangelical Christian and I believe in both Creation and evolution. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. PM me and I can recommend some great books if you are interested in learning more about that. Many Christians struggle with the belief that the bible is the true & literal word from God, but the Creation story and evolution are portrayed as opposing viewpoints. And I am not some sheltered kid who doesn't know any better ;-). Bachelor's in Biology & working on my DVM.

    I think there is a false dichotomy in our American lives between religious life & secular work. There's a great Bono quote that I can't find right now, but it basically says "If you accept Jesus Christ as your lord & savior, and you believe in Heaven and Hell, how much do you have to hate someone not to tell them about Jesus?" The Bible commands us to share Jesus' love with others and I would be disobeying God if I only prayed in the solitude of my own home and never talked about religion with people. I am a shy person and definitely not abrasive about it, but I try my hardest to engage people in civil conversations about Christianity and religion.

    There are plenty of tough moral topics to wrestle with in Christianity, but that doesn't mean that I should reject it because I don't understand everything.
    I can appreciate your belief. I have one question though, are you receptive to hearing about someone else's religion and their attempt to convert you? Just curious.
    Last edited by LauraKY; Nov. 23, 2012 at 05:17 PM.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


    2 members found this post helpful.

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