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  1. #1
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    Default Linebreeding experts please read

    I am asking this to learn more about linebreeding. I noticed that one of the stallions in the test was somewhat similarly bred to my mare, and then I started wondering how close is too close and what is ideal? I believe I read that 4th generation is the ideal repeat? Is this correct? For hypothetical fun I would love some opinions (but know this is just a paper exercise and you don't breed pedigrees, etc.). Also, does anyone have a link to the Holsteiner article on this (I found reference online to a recommended article in the magazine, but couldn't find the article)?

    Happy to open the thread up--please feel free to add examples of good (or bad) linebreeding, close breeding etc. and how it worked out (or didn't).


    Bon Balou (Balou Du Roet/Argentinius)
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bon+balou

    Levante SLS (Landfriese II/Galoubet A)
    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/levante+sls

    The Galoubet and Landadel is 4th generation on the sire line in a hypothetical foal, but is in the third generation in the damline in a hypothetical foal...
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  2. #2
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    Default

    Here is what your hypothetical foal would look like on paper
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10872133


    My own experiment with linebreeding http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10513738 resulted in Haven who has not disappointed me at all.

    In fact, now that I look back - the mare's first foal also had some linebreeding http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10513738 and he's a little jumping machine!

    What is the saying - "When it works it's linebreeding and when it doesn't it's inbreeding"? I think that it can help to consolidate traits - just make sure they are the ones that you want
    Last edited by mikali; Nov. 19, 2012 at 04:54 PM.
    Alison/Mikali Farms
    www.mikalifarms.com



  3. #3
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    Default

    yup, I always heard the saying credited to Hank Weiskamp (Skipper W) although who knows, maybe he stole it from Tesio,
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  4. #4
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikali View Post
    Here is what your hypothetical foal would look like on paper
    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10872133


    My own experiment with linebreeding http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10513738 resulted in Haven who has not disappointed me at all.

    In fact, now that I look back - the mare's first foal also had some linebreeding http://www.sporthorse-data.com/dbtes...damid=10513738 and he's a little jumping machine!

    What is the saying - "When it works it's linebreeding and when it doesn't it's inbreeding"? I think that it can help to consolidate traits - just make sure they are the ones that you want
    Haven is lovely! Will you keep her as a broodmare (or is Haven a boy and I just can't see the important parts on my screen)?

    Augh. Editing because I can't read. So the first foal had the most, which was Nimmerdor at 15% concentration (btw the "potential litter" is a such a cool tool!) correct? The second foal had 14% Capitol blood and then they each had various crosses under 10%. That got me thinking that maybe there are ideal percentages vs. generation (such as 4th generation as ideal) that might be a better goal or thing to watch out for?

    I know there are certain bloodlines you do not want too much of as well, but for now I'm interested in the theory on percentages and/or generational repeats.

    I read one article on the Tesio method awhile back, but need to go back and try to find it again. If anyone has any resources to share it is greatly appreciated. TIA!
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  5. #5
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  6. #6
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    Default

    You have to make sure you know any negatives in a line, before doubling up those genes.

    My best and most consistent cross has been a grandson of the Dutch stallion, Obelisk (Talisman - Amor), bred to an Obelisk daughter. I knew the gene pool I was doubling very well, met Obelisk in "person" and had friends that regularly worked with him, so I felt very comfortable. Repeated it 8 times, and have been thrilled with each one.



  7. #7
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    Default

    this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
    You have to make sure you know any negatives in a line, before doubling up those genes.
    there is genetic variability but there are also trends. there is no 'blanket' answer, but there can be detailed answers to individual proposed crosses.

    it can be right to avoid linebreeding Capitol too close. but does that then make the breeding of Cabrio wrong, who won the Spruce Masters Million? http://www.horsetelex.nl//horses/pedigree/101938

    the purpose of the breeding may also be a consideration... some may risk a little more with linebreeding like that above, but this horse - while now approved for breeding with two studbooks - will require that much more care when used in breeding. one has to imagine that the last thing the owner of the Calato mare was thinking of getting when he put the Cassini semen in would have been an approved stallion... a good sport horse would have been a more likely best-case result.

    but the exceptions don't make rules, and Cabrio is exceptional. and this is what often becomes problematic domestically here. whims and uneducated hunches take the place of calculated, educated risk too often. a taker of educated, calculated risk should not be deterred. they will fall foul of that risk in some (many?) cases, and possibly reap occasional greater rewards in others, like Cabrio.

    regarding linebreeding, conservative models will err away from it, or at least to lower concentrations of a common ancestor. there is good reason for this and there is genetic safety in it. it gives stronger likelihood of offspring free of genetically inherited difficulties, and it can also set up more 'breedable' pedigrees for future generations.

    after a pretty thorough search, the only geneticist reference i could find was that up to a concentration of 15% blood from a common ancestor may be referred to as linebreeding, 15% or more may be described as inbreeding. again, this is very subjective and where it is good to be aware of how the specific individual breeds. Cabrio by this measure has 37% Capitol blood, and even Indoctro has 18% Corde blood. to say they are both 'inbred', with the negative connotations that description brings, would just not pass the test and proof of current performance breeding.

    linebreeding can be good; outcrossing can be good. risk-taking can be good; 'safe' breeding can be good. nothing beats understanding how the blood breeds, deciding upon the degree of risk the individual breeder is comfortable with, and then being educated and ready for the range of outcomes which could occur. whether it goes well, or whether it goes poorly, only the uneducated breeder should be suprised frequently.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #8
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    Default

    My understanding of line breeding is that 2 "free" generations between using the same horse or close relative was a safe method of re-introducing a common ancestor to strengthen the gene pool you wish to confirm in the resulting foal. Of course, that is done judiciously with ancestors worthy of repeating. There is no guarantee in breeding whether you outcross or linebreed. However, when you do line breed or use matching phenotypes you better insure the possibility of getting what you expect.
    Best
    PennyG



  9. #9
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    There is certainly enough genetic variability between Landadel and Galobet. However, the issue then becomes why. Why line breed these two greats. Well, I can assure you that you would not line breed to both for the same reason. They are both old blood, and that brings its own set of problems. What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish by linebreeding these horses. Do you know what these horses brought to the table, good and bad? How does your mare stand? What would you improve on her, and do these horses provide this? These are the questions I would ask.

    Do not line breed, just to line breed. You must do it for a reason, because the risks of doubling up on the bad are too great.

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



  10. #10
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    Default

    I remember a mare from a farm I worked at in the past, she was the product of a pretty intense breeding program - her pedigree is rather an extreme example of in-breeding, it's always stuck in my memory. Have a look:

    http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ben-...fadjurs+legacy

    It would appear that her breeder put 20+ years of dedicated breeding to achieve the cross. Definitely a high in-breeding coefficient, but FWIW; she was quite a nice mare, correct with a lovely temperament.



  11. #11
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RyTimMick View Post
    There is certainly enough genetic variability between Landadel and Galobet. However, the issue then becomes why. Why line breed these two greats. Well, I can assure you that you would not line breed to both for the same reason. They are both old blood, and that brings its own set of problems. What is it exactly you are trying to accomplish by linebreeding these horses. Do you know what these horses brought to the table, good and bad? How does your mare stand? What would you improve on her, and do these horses provide this? These are the questions I would ask.

    Do not line breed, just to line breed. You must do it for a reason, because the risks of doubling up on the bad are too great.

    Tim
    Lot's of good responses. This one gets away from the paper exercise (percentages and such) and more to the horses at hand. Frankly, I've never seen the stallion and my point wasn't to get to his strengths or weaknesses but to look at linebreeding as a general tool. Obviously the tongue in cheek answer is "jumping ability" as the goal, but I recognize that isn't a good answer at all. I was looking at this cross as an example to open discussion and hoping people would bring other examples (I have no current plans to even breed the mare) but your response got me thinking that perhaps a mare shouldn't be linebred until one has bred her to outside blood to see what she in particular transmits? How else do you know what the individual at hand transmits?

    The Capitol examples are "old" blood correct? I don't see him as a particularly modern horse. Did the successful breeders use modern type horses that carried this old blood? What made the heavy % crosses ok? Do you breed this way (Cabrio for example) to produce competition horses or to produce brood stock or is it interchangeable? I'm curious as to philosophies on this (looking forward to reading the more in-depth articles provided over the holiday break).

    That said, I know mares that stamp their offspring, and then those who let the sire through. To go back to my example, which isn't a great one because she is only 2, I don't know about this filly's particular abilities at this point (a good reason not to breed her in my book), but her dam (the Galoubet mare) appeared to allow quite a bit of the stallion she was bred to influence the foal's type. Levante, for example, in type is much more like Landfriese--refined and longer lined and more feminine in appearance, where the mare was shorter coupled. Despite looking like a thoroughbred, the filly is quieter and more unflappable than any horse I've own (including stock horses). I'm actually a tad worried she's going to be lazy. We shall see when she is started next year I guess. Interstingly, she was a bit standoffish and reactive as a foal, so I don't know how much of her current personality is inherent and how much is nutured from handling, going places, etc. But we don't just breed for type or conformation either, and athletic ability is not 100% correlated to type and that is the factor I assume most competition breeders are striving for (not ignoring type of course). So how do you stack personality, type and ability when looking at linebreeding? Galoubet was not known for his super easy offspring, for example. I won't get into the mares he was crossed to, etc., but regardless of the reasons, I think that is a fair geralization? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. As the Galoubet mare was bred late in life, her oldest offspring is just starting under saddle. The stallion in the example is also young, no idea what he is producing (again before someone eats me alive, I'm not actually suggesting the cross). However, I am guessing you (Tim) are working from a model with more understanding of your damlines strengths and weaknesses in multiple generations of production. But how do you decide what stallions you breed your young mares to then? How much reliance is put on the mare family vs. the individual? Also, what do you suggest for breeders with young outcrossed horses? Breed only to proven stallions?

    I hope my ramblings make some sense. I'm sure I will edit this for comprehension again.

    Also, for those that use linebreeding when do you know it is time for some outside blood?

    Somekindawonderful--Fadjurs Legacy seems like an apt name for that one!
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

    DIY Journey of Remodeling the Farmette: http://weownblackacre.blogspot.com/



  12. #12
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    Not really in regards to linebreeding, but your question on how to decide whom to breed young mares to....

    I'm a relative newcomer to breeding, but my general rule of thumb is to breed my young, un-proven mares to very proven stallions. I will use young/unproven stallions on my older/more proven mares because I have a better idea of what they bring to the table. As far as linebreeding goes I don't really focus on that; I feel like I'm not experienced enough yet to make very good use of linebreeding without taking on more risk than I would desire.
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  13. #13
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    Nick's points are to be taken seriously. It is sage advice. Tim's comment of don't line breed just to line breed is also very sage advice. These are 2 very experienced breeders here.

    Here are a couple pedigrees to study. It is a good example of not only linebreeding, but perhaps some inbreeding too.

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10527892

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10469745

    Both of these results ended up in stallion production, or producing mares who in turn produced stallions of very high caliber. These were both done by someone who really knew what they were doing and by someone who KNEW those mares and her family traits inside, out, backwards, and upside down.


    Line breeding could also be said to also take place in the form of nicks. We see this where Lineage A is a sweetheart when paired with Lineage B.

    One example is Donnerhall and Pik Bube. We could all name offspring who resulted from this nick - producing either top stallions directly, or elite daughters who went on to produce stallions.

    Another example is Now or Never with Belisar mares or Saros mares. It becomes a sweetheart lineage because it produces direct stallions, or elite daughters who go on to produce stallions.

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=378605

    http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?p=372950
    https://www.facebook.com/MariposaSportHorses

    Practice! Patience! Persistence!



  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post
    Lot's of good responses. This one gets away from the paper exercise (percentages and such) and more to the horses at hand. Frankly, I've never seen the stallion and my point wasn't to get to his strengths or weaknesses but to look at linebreeding as a general tool. Obviously the tongue in cheek answer is "jumping ability" as the goal, but I recognize that isn't a good answer at all. I was looking at this cross as an example to open discussion and hoping people would bring other examples (I have no current plans to even breed the mare) but your response got me thinking that perhaps a mare shouldn't be linebred until one has bred her to outside blood to see what she in particular transmits? How else do you know what the individual at hand transmits?

    The Capitol examples are "old" blood correct? I don't see him as a particularly modern horse. Did the successful breeders use modern type horses that carried this old blood? What made the heavy % crosses ok? Do you breed this way (Cabrio for example) to produce competition horses or to produce brood stock or is it interchangeable? I'm curious as to philosophies on this (looking forward to reading the more in-depth articles provided over the holiday break).

    That said, I know mares that stamp their offspring, and then those who let the sire through. To go back to my example, which isn't a great one because she is only 2, I don't know about this filly's particular abilities at this point (a good reason not to breed her in my book), but her dam (the Galoubet mare) appeared to allow quite a bit of the stallion she was bred to influence the foal's type. Levante, for example, in type is much more like Landfriese--refined and longer lined and more feminine in appearance, where the mare was shorter coupled. Despite looking like a thoroughbred, the filly is quieter and more unflappable than any horse I've own (including stock horses). I'm actually a tad worried she's going to be lazy. We shall see when she is started next year I guess. Interstingly, she was a bit standoffish and reactive as a foal, so I don't know how much of her current personality is inherent and how much is nutured from handling, going places, etc. But we don't just breed for type or conformation either, and athletic ability is not 100% correlated to type and that is the factor I assume most competition breeders are striving for (not ignoring type of course). So how do you stack personality, type and ability when looking at linebreeding? Galoubet was not known for his super easy offspring, for example. I won't get into the mares he was crossed to, etc., but regardless of the reasons, I think that is a fair geralization? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. As the Galoubet mare was bred late in life, her oldest offspring is just starting under saddle. The stallion in the example is also young, no idea what he is producing (again before someone eats me alive, I'm not actually suggesting the cross). However, I am guessing you (Tim) are working from a model with more understanding of your damlines strengths and weaknesses in multiple generations of production. But how do you decide what stallions you breed your young mares to then? How much reliance is put on the mare family vs. the individual? Also, what do you suggest for breeders with young outcrossed horses? Breed only to proven stallions?

    I hope my ramblings make some sense. I'm sure I will edit this for comprehension again.

    Also, for those that use linebreeding when do you know it is time for some outside blood?

    Somekindawonderful--Fadjurs Legacy seems like an apt name for that one!
    TrotTrotPumkin,

    I do think breeding with knowledge of your mare and her family is best. Very often our mares breed from their Dams, and not how they stand. You could have a mare the stands 162cm, so the mare owner breeds her to Clearway, and gets this 170cm filly. You own the filly and think she is tall, I can breed her to Casall who needs a big mare. This would be a mistake as her mother was small, and she might breed from her dam. You could get a midget. Now if you breed to the blood in her pedigree, you can increase the chance that the TB blood comes through in the offspring, increasing the chance of the offspinrg being leggier. I have Calando I mare who I felt needed better action up front to match her quick hind legs. I linebred to the Halfbred stallion Corde, because he was known for improving front end speed and technique. It worked, and the colt has much better shoulder and front leg action then the mother. I also made sure I line bred using outcross blood, not Holsteiners. If you line breed to the WB's, you get all of their mothers too, and 100's of years of type. This is not what you want to do. Usually we make sure the linebreeding doesn't cause a problem, sometimes we use it to for a specific trait that we are looking for in our offspring. To do this, you MUST known the faults of these stallions, because your mare must be strong in these areas.

    Before taking such risks, I would breed your mare to a stallion who is proven, and we know how he breeds. He can then tell you about your mare.

    Best of luck

    Tim
    Sparling Rock Holsteiners
    www.sparlingrock.com



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