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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    I doubt this ever happened. If you've got a reference I'd be glad to look at it.

    What DID happen (and continued into the early 1880s) was that immigrants would land with no money and be met by recruiting agents that would give them $20 cash if they enlisted. They were then sent to the regiments that paid the agents. During the ACW desertion was a problem but could be handled. During the IW period desertion rates in some regiments were 60%. Some deserters would enlist multiple times (getting multiple bonus payments) and then desert multiple times. Record keeping was pretty bad and as long as you didn't run into anybody who knew you it was OK!
    OK, mea culpa, I over-simplified what happened for the sake of brevity. But I do remember reading something once that was basically the same spiel. As for finding which book it was in out of all the ones I have... How long you willing to wait? Geez, it could take me till Christmas-- oh wait, that's almost here, isn't it!
    "...That's the worst, I think. When the secret stays locked within not for want of a teller, but for want of an understanding ear." --Stephen King



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    War is natural. Fighting is natural. It's ugly, but it's natural.
    Respectfully disagree. The whole Might Make Right thing is entirely made up, especially the production of a legitimating cause for using military force on civilians.

    Want to go back to the Middle Ages where professional soldiers fought landowners' battles (complete with well-organized rules and days off)? Meh, I don't care. Those guys can have their parallel economy.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Respectfully disagree. The whole Might Make Right thing is entirely made up, especially the production of a legitimating cause for using military force on civilians.

    Want to go back to the Middle Ages where professional soldiers fought landowners' battles (complete with well-organized rules and days off)? Meh, I don't care. Those guys can have their parallel economy.
    Look at how we'll fight over a right of way or an easement and tell me war isn't natural



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    Respectfully disagree. The whole Might Make Right thing is entirely made up, especially the production of a legitimating cause for using military force on civilians.

    Want to go back to the Middle Ages where professional soldiers fought landowners' battles (complete with well-organized rules and days off)? Meh, I don't care. Those guys can have their parallel economy.
    I submit that 6000 years of recorded history says otherwise.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    I submit that 6000 years of recorded history says otherwise.

    G.

    I submit that 6,000 years of recorded history says nothing about what's natural, or even accurate.

    Look up Whig History, ye olde nature/nurture debate and call me back.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    Look at how we'll fight over a right of way or an easement and tell me war isn't natural
    That might be true if War and fighting over a right to cross your neighbor's land (or vice versa) are synonymous.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    I submit that 6,000 years of recorded history says nothing about what's natural, or even accurate.

    Look up Whig History, ye olde nature/nurture debate and call me back.
    Note that I said nothing about "natural." History clearly demontrates that human are capable of massive violence.

    For an interesting drill Google "Prehistoric murder victims." You'lll find dozens of refernces to archiological evidence of homocide dating back thousands of years.

    It's hard to fathom that anyone who knows of the history of folks like Micheal Vick or Jackie McConnell (let alone Timogen or Vlad the Impailer) would have a problem with the idea that humans are natural, born killers. It's society's job (parents, family, tribe, clan, government, church, etc.) to provide education in the moral, ethical, and legal aspects of life. And to sanction deviant behavior.

    We are what we are.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by katarine View Post
    We just have to disagree on that, Al, There's not much point in throwing stuff at dead flesh, unless it's a marinade.
    LOL, two different animals.

    Just saying there is nothing natural about an even that can send your legs each a different direction, the rest of your limbs in quiet another and the insides of you go on a walk-about on their own. All while not being eaten by a bear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    That might be true if War and fighting over a right to cross your neighbor's land (or vice versa) are synonymous.
    Reading about WW I right now, the Willy-Nicky letters, and the start of that war, it was about that stupid.
    Courageous Weenie Eventer Wannabe
    Incredible Invisible


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #50
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    Men are born to take up arms against each other. It is what we do when resources are scarce or egos, unchecked. It is what happens. When you don't need to fight, you don't have to.


    The Sioux were not a peaceful tribe as your 6th grade history class suggested. They were established and powerful for a reason.



  11. #51
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    In terms of brain evolution, humans currently sit in the no man's land between being too advanced or not advanced enough. We are more intelligent than animals and that has allowed us to develop tremendously powerful technologies that facilitate, amongst other things, killing and environment destruction. However, we are not intelligent enough as a species to figure out how to live in sustainable and non-destructive ways. Our animal instincts are indomitable. Whether we will survive long enough to evolve that intelligence, or even such evolution is possible, is anyone's guess.


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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by fburton View Post
    In terms of brain evolution, humans currently sit in the no man's land between being too advanced or not advanced enough. We are more intelligent than animals and that has allowed us to develop tremendously powerful technologies that facilitate, amongst other things, killing and environment destruction. However, we are not intelligent enough as a species to figure out how to live in sustainable and non-destructive ways. Our animal instincts are indomitable. Whether we will survive long enough to evolve that intelligence, or even such evolution is possible, is anyone's guess.
    Well said.

    We humans are as much a "prisoner of our evolution" as a lion or shark. We are the pre-eminent predator on the planet.

    Just how we control our darker nature has often baffled thinkers. For a while the "rationalists" were dominant. Think Plato. When that didn't work out the "naturalists" took center stage (think Rouseau or Thoreau). The influence of each group has waxed and waned in modern times. In my youth it was the rationalists; today it's the naturalists.

    At the end of the day it's the job of an ordered society to "civilize" children and make them productive members of the society. Just how this is to be done can be the source of great debate, but THAT it need be done is manifest.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    3 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guilherme View Post
    Well said.

    We humans are as much a "prisoner of our evolution" as a lion or shark. We are the pre-eminent predator on the planet.

    Just how we control our darker nature has often baffled thinkers. For a while the "rationalists" were dominant. Think Plato. When that didn't work out the "naturalists" took center stage (think Rouseau or Thoreau). The influence of each group has waxed and waned in modern times. In my youth it was the rationalists; today it's the naturalists.

    At the end of the day it's the job of an ordered society to "civilize" children and make them productive members of the society. Just how this is to be done can be the source of great debate, but THAT it need be done is manifest.

    G.
    and in the end a tree is still a guy's favorite latrine....
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
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    "The Civil War was a classic case of stupidity, as is the present conflict in the Middle East."

    I guess the writer of this thought would agree with the Copperhead Democrats that we'd have been better off the let the Secessionist states go. And we're better off if we just allow the extremists to impose their violent vision upon all who won't accept it peacefully. I hope they've already purchased their hajib.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As the author of the first quote: I state: The Civil War from its inception was stupidity. You need to read history.

    As for the mission of the extremists who instigated the latest round of hostilities. I do not endorse their activities, or agenda.
    Some riders change their horse, they change their saddle, they change their teacher; they never change themselves.



  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by merrygoround View Post
    "The Civil War was a classic case of stupidity, as is the present conflict in the Middle East."

    I guess the writer of this thought would agree with the Copperhead Democrats that we'd have been better off the let the Secessionist states go. And we're better off if we just allow the extremists to impose their violent vision upon all who won't accept it peacefully. I hope they've already purchased their hajib.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As the author of the first quote: I state: The Civil War from its inception was stupidity. You need to read history.

    As for the mission of the extremists who instigated the latest round of hostilities. I do not endorse their activities, or agenda.
    And precisely what history do I need to read? Caton? Sandburg? Foote? Davis? Grant?

    The world wonders.

    G.
    Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão


    1 members found this post helpful.

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