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  1. #161
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    exvet, cob proofing things has been a challenge . Maxwell completely took apart his 40 gallon heated water tub. I tried to take that same tub apart (to clean and check things) last year with no success. How Maxwell did it I will never know. However he did toast the heating element by exposing it to the air .

    ETA: Max drank twice his usual amount of water to get to the bottom of the tub without spilling it in the barn. That was what I didn't expect.



  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    A quote from Page 130 of Michel Henriquet's book, 30 Years With Master Nuno Oliverira. Oliveira says:

    "No rider can solve the problems of over-excitation, laziness, lack of lightness, or the rigidity of the school gaits through extensions. With this system you tense your horse the German way [tension against the hand] and that is not what we are seeking. Bend your horse constantly on voltes and tight exercises and profit from these flexions by constant yielding with the hand. Do not forget what I have just told you."


    I have heard no one here calling the "German" system "the devil," so don't put words to my posts that I didn't type, please! But I think modern competitive-focused riding DOES entail "tension against the hand," and then some, as well as the unnatural gaits and flawed balance other posters above have described. Further, what people cite as the "German" system, perhaps for lack of another word, gives tons of lip service to the "classicism" of La Guerinere without actually working the horses in his way. At the SRS they do--and it is close to what Oliveira describes above. In the modern show ring--well, not so much.

    It's worth pointing out that the modern, "German" system WAS designed for the heavier, carriage-type military horse, not the Iberian favored by Haute Ecole.
    Apples and oranges. One needs to appreciate what one is in fact trying to do.
    I am merely trying to point out that what you consider to be "German" is not what good/classical German system trainers are doing. I agree that a lot of what is done out there is way heavy and on the forehand.

    if you think the french system is better - great!

    oh and fwiw, take a look at what the german Olympic team was riding back in the early 1900's it was not draft horses!

    (and this is the first time i have ever heard anyone use the fact that the german system is based on La Guerinere and the SRS in a derogatory fashion! )



  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I know I shouldn't say this, but I have never liked Nuno. Ever. There are much better riders than him anyway.
    I think he wins the gold star for the best "feel" and timing/effectiveness of the aids and usage of school figures to get what he wants award.

    hi s seat is a bit slumpy, but he is a master in working the horse to get what he wants. and i learn something every single time i watch him ride.



  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pocket Pony View Post
    I didn't watch it all, but that white horse is amazing! And the man has quite the seat. It is interesting to look at an example like that - riding with a *purpose* vs. riding for a test...amazing!
    my trainer would say that we have to ride with a purpose - even if that purpose is the test.... and that horses understand the difference so that we need to have a purpose - no matter what that might be.

    For us it is we go out and gymnasticize our bodies for 20 minutes each day (after warmup) - we work hard but fairly and the horses come to bask in it and really dig the work they do.

    i think it does matter.



  5. #165
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    I know it can be symantics, but to me 'riding with a purpose' is not the same as riding a 'test'. A test is a test of what you are training the horse for and just training to ride the dressage test is not, in my experience, condusive to correct riding. No hills, no water, no cavaletti .... no nothin', just a flat boring patch of dirt with letters around the sides.

    What intelligent horse is going to want to spend his entire life in the dressage ring?


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  6. #166
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    I don’t think they are quite that literal... but I do think they understand and really dig - working their bodies so that they develop their physique....

    I see this now plain as day with my tank on legs.... when he was younger he didn’t look like much - and still when he is not working correctly he looks a bit yucky - but as he is developing and building muscle and ability he is literally blossoming.... and he gets what we do.... we warm up and then we work - and through that work he learns to really enjoy what his body is capable of doing - and I can "feel" him grin and go "AHA" when he gets something or when he realizes that he can do something he didn’t know he could.

    So for them the purpose is work hard. Feel good. Then you get to eat your favorite stuff : )

    they also seem to understand that when we go to shows we warm up and then do a test.

    And while the test may be for our benefit - that is as valid a purpose as any.

    Altho for me it is more important to work the horse to the best of our ability - the test shows us where we are and what we can do better : )

    it's not baiting baby bulls - but hey it works for us!



  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I know it can be symantics, but to me 'riding with a purpose' is not the same as riding a 'test'. A test is a test of what you are training the horse for and just training to ride the dressage test is not, in my experience, condusive to correct riding. No hills, no water, no cavaletti .... no nothin', just a flat boring patch of dirt with letters around the sides.

    What intelligent horse is going to want to spend his entire life in the dressage ring?
    I agree with you mostly - except the "a dressage test is not conducive to correct riding." Maybe or maybe not depending on the rider, but I do think that is the goal. But the activities outside of the arena - galloping over hill and dale, moving cows, jumping, trails, whatever - are for real and practical riding. Like that man on the white horse - his seat is glued to the saddle - a sideways jump or a leap in the air will not unseat him. That is real and productive and practical riding. He doesn't need hushed silence to ride, he doesn't need to ride in an arena where there are no distractions, he doesn't need to avoid he scary corner of the arena where the bushes want to eat you. He is riding and prepared for anything that comes his way.

    I do think horses enjoy the effects of good riding - building strength and power and agility. But I also think that endless 20-m circles and working only in the arena is a bore and you can just as well develop strength and power and agility by being outside of the arena.

    Riding with a purpose where you're not focusing on the riding, but the by-product of your training (moving a herd of cows, for example) shows the depth and scope of one's training program. Sure, lots of us could ride with the purpose of going in and doing a dressage test in a somewhat controlled environment in front of a judge. But how many of us could take that training and go out and get chased by those bulls without ending up in he mud and trampled? THAT is purpose.
    My Mustang Adventures - Mac, my mustang | Annwylid D'Lite - my Cob filly

    "A horse's face always conveys clearly whether it is loved by its owner or simply used." - Anja Beran


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  8. #168
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    i dont really think baiting a baby bull is inherently purposeful. it is just different.

    riding with purpose is a mind set. and while i agree one of the end goals of training is a handy horse that is light on its feet - we don't need to bait bulls to prove that.

    i personally feel that the more i learn about the systematic training and how to accomplish each step in the scales - the more i see the purpose in what i do each day.

    and the more i see that the more my horses feel this in me and enjoy the work more.

    and just as an aside: as prey animals - do you think horses enjoy being attacked by bulls?

    also my guess is those horses were trained in an arena long before they were put bull baiting.



  9. #169
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    mbm, it is a video, not a moral statement.

    I posted the 'bull baiting' video so that people can see and discuss the SEAT of the rider and how it can be useful, not because I am promoting bullfighting.

    And, I do believe that a rider can develop a horse without the extreme machismo stuff.



  10. #170
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    i dont think i said anything about it being moral.... i just dont see any "purpose" in what that video shows that is any more "real" than developing a horse for the pure development itself.


    kind of like i love to work out - i dont do it so that i can run a marathon - just because i love how i feel when i am fit. same thing.....

    as for machismo - i agree - no machismo needed - altho i have seen how some of those horses are trained and it is not for the faint of heart.



  11. #171
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    I think its a completely different kind of riding where the riders focus is almost completely focused on something else. Several years ago I earned a 1 goal rating playing womens polo in our local league (you generally start at with a negative goal rating). I can honestly say when you are flying down the field at a full gallop chasing the ball with the whole team thundering on behind your brain is not thinking about what your horse is doing. If that ball turns you do not think wow I Im going 35mph I better set up my horse for this turn you just DO IT. Better yet is being able to anticipate that turn before it happens. There is no thinking about it. I have helped move 300 head of cattle too and at least for me--I was busier trying to read/anticipate the cattle reactions when moving in tighter quarters than thinking about what my horse was doing. Same with team penning. Fox Hunting sorta similar in the since that you are acutely aware of the field and the terrain--you are not so much focally centered on the horse. Jumping too--your eye is on the fences and riding the turns and maintaining a certain rhythm/gallop and track. Galloping race horses too---I did kinda think about what my horse was doing--losing balance and crashing and burning was on my mind a little at that speed on those young horses. I think maybe different venues have different requirements--to me dressage and riding tests is maybe a bit more cerebral.


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  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    I fail to see that your post has anything to do with this thread.
    Well forgive me, I was thinking the video was posted to show a horse that had been trained in either German or French based schooling.
    What I saw was a horse that has an uneven gait and looked resistant,head movement etc. Sorry if I crashed the party trying to learn, It will not happen again.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  13. #173
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    Sannois, I posted the video specifically for learning. I bought the pony in late 2009.


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  14. #174
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    So, op, has this thread shed enlightment on your questions?



  15. #175
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    As most French riders, I am not a dressage rider myself (yay, for jumping!) but I'd like to point out a few things. In this thread - and most of the others on the French school(s)- it feels that people are assuming that whatever comes from France regardless of the time period/region is "the French school". This confuses me a little. Would you say that Natural Horsemanship/Cowboys/US dressage team are the same thing just because they're from the US? As a few others pointed out, comparing Baroque riding and le Cadre Noir is definitely like comparing apples to oranges.

    I think the OP's question was more about the competitive nature - or lack thereof- of the French tradition, but since no one seems to agree on what they mean by "French tradition", it's hard to answer. And even harder since so few French riders do dressage - let alone compete in it. As someone else also mentioned, in France, jumping is pretty the only game in town. Le Cadre Noir does do dressage but apart from the "reprise des sauteurs", it's mostly targeting towards eventing when they compete (due to the modern military heritage of the discipline). And ps: we're not that good at that part of eventing either if you look at the last Olympic's results...
    Of course, there are little amateur middle-aged ladies out there who "looooove" Nuno O. but they're not really competing at high-level. Not necessarily because it's not a competitive style but because they're the same people who, from what I've seen here in the US, spend their whole life riding Training level tests.

    It's thus tough evaluating the competitiveness of a tradition when no-one really uses it to compete....


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  16. #176
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    There are only three middle aged women, and one guy, who 'loved' NO who actually RODE with him (or watched him in real life at all...since St Aggies was a small hall at PV), two are judges (and competed a lot) and one a realllly well know clinician/writer. Are they combinations of their previous training? For sure.

    Samaur is the national school (teachers/eventing a key part), but the Cadre have some lovely riders with great tact/timing.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  17. #177
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    Posted by Sannois:

    Originally Posted by BaroquePony

    I thought kande04 was referring to this type of situation:


    The infamous sales video of Maxwell:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8OqW2ZlujI

    vs.

    Photos of Max as he has become healthy (unfinished website blog thing):

    http://ponytaleswebsite.com/maxwell_movement.html
    I know I am just popping in, but Does the first Video not Disturb anyone else? That horse does not look sound. And I think it is a result of how he is ridden not his movement. AGH. Someone better to judge than me comment please?
    Sannois, when I bought this pony I was nervous because I knew there could be a chance that he might never be sound (based on the video), and because I was buying him from a total stranger (I rarely do that).

    Almost all of the people I know that have viewed that sales video think the pony looks like he is in pain and struggling, which is what I thought.

    My "gut" analysis of the pony's situation was that I was watching what appeared to be a fairly well-bred pony being broken down by the "Modern American School" of training and horsemanship.

    The jumping section of the video was done right when Max first arrived at the sales barn. And, I was told that Max had been left in a stall for six months without EVER being let out. EVER.

    The "dressage" section of his "training" came later (even thought it is at the beginning of the video).

    My first thought when I saw the additional dressage part of the video was that he was "rein lame" based on how he was being ridden (spank and crank).

    I also was concerned about his hindquarters. The shuffling in the dirt. The plus side of the wonky rear end was that it was symetrical shuffling which to me is often an indication of incorrrect conditioning and riding. I considered that to be a positive. Especially knowing that the pony had had NO exercise (never out of stall, not even a paddock) for months prior to his sales debut. And now "this"!!

    In the early jumping tapes he looked pretty happy and willing. As his training "progressed" at the sales barn he began to look extremely stressed. Extremely. Stressed.

    So, I bought him with the hopes that he would eventually be truly sound, which he seems to be, three years later.

    His front tendons had been stretched due to improper hoof care over several years.

    And that was only one of the "improper care" issues.


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  18. #178
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    Thanks for that response BP.
    I really thought it had everything to do with how he was being trained.
    He is quite lovely. Cobbs are awesome.
    Sounds like you are bringing out his full potential.
    I> think the other poster thought I was being snarky, when in fact I really wanted to know the reason for the Video. Best of luck with the handsome man!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  19. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rohello View Post
    As most French riders, I am not a dressage rider myself (yay, for jumping!) but I'd like to point out a few things. In this thread - and most of the others on the French school(s)- it feels that people are assuming that whatever comes from France regardless of the time period/region is "the French school". This confuses me a little. Would you say that Natural Horsemanship/Cowboys/US dressage team are the same thing just because they're from the US? As a few others pointed out, comparing Baroque riding and le Cadre Noir is definitely like comparing apples to oranges.

    I think the OP's question was more about the competitive nature - or lack thereof- of the French tradition, but since no one seems to agree on what they mean by "French tradition", it's hard to answer. And even harder since so few French riders do dressage - let alone compete in it. As someone else also mentioned, in France, jumping is pretty the only game in town. Le Cadre Noir does do dressage but apart from the "reprise des sauteurs", it's mostly targeting towards eventing when they compete (due to the modern military heritage of the discipline). And ps: we're not that good at that part of eventing either if you look at the last Olympic's results...
    Of course, there are little amateur middle-aged ladies out there who "looooove" Nuno O. but they're not really competing at high-level. Not necessarily because it's not a competitive style but because they're the same people who, from what I've seen here in the US, spend their whole life riding Training level tests.

    It's thus tough evaluating the competitiveness of a tradition when no-one really uses it to compete....
    I agree with some of your points. Having lived in France through the 80's and 90's and maintained contacts currently, I agree, the majority of the French do not prefer to practise just dressage, they prefer jumping or eventing. There are dressage barns especially in the Paris suburbs or environs that exist but for the most part they practise the "dutch/danish/german" dressage style or if you will the A. Cornelissen/Parzival style based on precision, big movement, etc... They mostly purchase their horses from these countries and clinic with these instructors on a regular basis.
    The much smaller revivalist group of classisists, into which the Henriquets, P. Karl (and students), L. Gruss, Bartabas (and his school), J. Froissard, M. Delgado, F. Pignon, etc..., fall, are few and lack the interest in new students to keep their craft robust and popular in its country of origin.
    However with the advent of P. Karl and his followers organizing clinics and generating interest here in the states, I can only be so pleased to see the craft live. Mr. Karl is doing what Jean Froissard attempted to do back in the late seventies and early eighties by coming over, giving clinics, teaching at Lake Erie College in OH and having all his material translated into English. Back then he was one of the only Frenchmen to even try to bring classisism to the states.
    Yes there were always some good Scandinavians, Germans, and Dutch, Eastern Euros living here who taught with quality and who were educated in the classical methods but it was never as wide spread as it is now starting to become. People are actually talking about it and buying the books!
    But being a classical enthusiast is more a study and a craft than anything. Its goes beyond competition into methods to really improve what you already own than purchasing the "dressage machines" we see coming out of Europe these days.

    Can it improve your competiton horse - Yes. Can you ride a test in a light, harmonious manner, with impulsion from behind, a swinging back and the poll at the highest point? Yes - I do. Do judges here recognize the work? Yes, many do.
    Can we learn from watching and studying Nuno Oliveira? Yes because his horses were the ipitomy of lightness. You would have to had studied with him or with one of his longtime students like D. Jose D'Atyade to feel a horse like this under you. Its a feeling you never forget and always aspire to regain with a young horse.


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  20. #180
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    For the record, that video of bull baiting is very impressive.
    Awesome horses and seriously rock solid seats on those riders.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



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