[mbm]

Now look at the 2 schools of thought again in that context, and ask yourself what balance you'd like your horse in if your life itself depended on it! This was in fact the "dressage" paradigm from roughly the fall of the School of Versailles until post WWII.

while i have no quarrel with the majority of your post - i really think that using the "other" (aka german) system as the foil to your perfect system is really getting old.

i can point you to many German system trainers who ride in a manner as you describe.

I know that many people come to the french method because they were disappointed with the results they got from their supposed "German System" trainer. Usually that means either the student didnt do as directed OR the trainer was just not a good rider/trainer.

But the problem with this POV is that it isnt the German system that is at fault - it is the individuals who misinterpret or over ride it.

so if you want to be heard drop the German is the devil portion of your debates and you might get more people to agree with you.

there is good and bad riding in ALL schools. and french is more than baucherism.

Harumph!

[mbm]

But the tests have changed very little...what has been given high scores has...which is the shoulder for extensions. But COLLECTION has traditionally be the emphasis of haute ecole, ground covering is more the campaign school.

interesting that I just read somewhere that the FEI is looking into putting more emphasis on other portions of the tests besides the 3 Ps... and possibly bringing the rocker back.

so i am bit confused ....

i dont really think the top horses win because of the flying front legs - but because of the halo effect and probably precision above all. however, we have seen a sea change and *that* is exciting as H ee double ell

[mbm]

I think they will too, but then when the breeders have exhausted the potential for more and more bizarre gaits that are practically impossible to collect, it may come full circle again. Not that it matters, because I think everyone who is interested in Classical Dressage has already rejected the current competitive scene, or soon will as it becomes less and less classical and more and more flashy.

It's no different than saddle seat, reining, western pleasure, hunters, or any other style of riding. What started out as competitions that measured practical and desirable training that made horses better at their work, have evolved into bizarre and exaggerated caricatures that actually make the horses unsuitable for the work it's supposed to represent. If a low head carriage was considered desirable then the horses were trained to carry their heads lower and lower until they were rolling peanuts. If fancy knee action was considered desirable, then the horses were not only trained to lift those knees up higher and higher, but were chained and sored to achieve it.

One would think that dressage would be free of that because the testing is complex enough that the judges shouldn't need to have to reward more, more, more to separate the winners. But apparently not, as dressage competitions are now turning into the same kind of more, more, more flash at the expense of more, more, more utility.

You do know that is that it is possible to train in a system and work up the levels and *gasp* even go to shows and *still* maintain classical principles? it happens, really it does. and many of the top riders are very classical in their training .

and i think as i already said - we have had a sea change. so much so that the duchess of crank (whats her face on the chestnut) had fired Sjeff and has stated that she is going to work more towards lightness.

btw: Since I am obviously having some trouble understanding your POV , can you post some vids of what you consider correct? Words get in the way many times in understanding .....

[Lady Eboshi]

A quote from Page 130 of Michel Henriquet's book, 30 Years With Master Nuno Oliverira. Oliveira says:

"No rider can solve the problems of over-excitation, laziness, lack of lightness, or the rigidity of the school gaits through extensions. With this system you tense your horse the German way [tension against the hand] and that is not what we are seeking. Bend your horse constantly on voltes and tight exercises and profit from these flexions by constant yielding with the hand. Do not forget what I have just told you."

I have heard no one here calling the "German" system "the devil," so don't put words to my posts that I didn't type, please! But I think modern competitive-focused riding DOES entail "tension against the hand," and then some, as well as the unnatural gaits and flawed balance other posters above have described. Further, what people cite as the "German" system, perhaps for lack of another word, gives tons of lip service to the "classicism" of La Guerinere without actually working the horses in his way. At the SRS they do--and it is close to what Oliveira describes above. In the modern show ring--well, not so much.

It's worth pointing out that the modern, "German" system WAS designed for the heavier, carriage-type military horse, not the Iberian favored by Haute Ecole.
Apples and oranges. One needs to appreciate what one is in fact trying to do.

[BaroquePony]

I know I shouldn't say this, but I have never liked Nuno. Ever. There are much better riders than him anyway.

[4wdNstraight]

while i have no quarrel with the majority of your post - i really think that using the "other" (aka german) system as the foil to your perfect system is really getting old.

i can point you to many German system trainers who ride in a manner as you describe.

I know that many people come to the french method because they were disappointed with the results they got from their supposed "German System" trainer. Usually that means either the student didnt do as directed OR the trainer was just not a good rider/trainer.

But the problem with this POV is that it isnt the German system that is at fault - it is the individuals who misinterpret or over ride it.

so if you want to be heard drop the German is the devil portion of your debates and you might get more people to agree with you.

there is good and bad riding in ALL schools. and french is more than baucherism.

Harumph!

I have to agree with this. I think a lot of bad riding from any place can be misinterpretation. I couldn't believe there weren't more comments about the Uta Graf ride posted earlier. That is my new picture of what I want to emulate! That looked like a beautiful example of a horse being developed to work through and build strength through suppleness. Maybe this places me on the other team but I just have never cared much for labels.

[BaroquePony]

Contact ??

SERGIO GALÁN ACOSO Y DERRIBO II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RAz...feature=fvwrel

[alicen]

Contact ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RAz...feature=fvwrel

Contact? You betcha.
Not so much here: http://www.cowboyway.com/RanchCuttingHorsePictures.htm

How's Max's eye doing?

[ideayoda]

I think they will too, but then when the breeders have exhausted the potential for more and more bizarre gaits that are practically impossible to collect, it may come full circle again. Not that it matters, because I think everyone who is interested in Classical Dressage has already rejected the current competitive scene, or soon will as it becomes less and less classical and more and more flashy.

How much have you studied breeding, or ridden ALL types of horses. The horses of most times ARE easily collected, if that is the intention of the riders and they understand HOW to use the exercises TO collect. Right now the exercises are at best used for medium levels (badly), and one sees NO one (NO one) riding traditional exercises when warming up. The riders are doing tempo control (fast/slow) to pursue submission. But they forget that properly comes FROM COLLECTION.

[BaroquePony]

alican, Maxwell's eyelid has a section of missing eyelash with a tiny bit of the lid where the eyelashs come out of missing, and a fairly major scrape on the lid. The eyeball is fine. And he has a nice glob of Neosporin on the cut areas.

Thank you for asking .

He was doing something that he knows he is not supposed to be doing .... tearing the shed door off of the shed. I believe part of it broke and bonked him on the head.

I had allowed him into the yard to eat grass.

[mbm]

Contact ??

SERGIO GALÁN ACOSO Y DERRIBO II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RAz...feature=fvwrel

amazing horses. not sure i would call that light in the bridle in the dressage sense.... - altho they are handy and very much at their riders seat.

not sure i would want to see how they are trained tho.....

[exvet]

alican, Maxwell's eyelid has a section of missing eyelash with a tiny bit of the lid where the eyelashs come out of missing, and a fairly major scrape on the lid. The eyeball is fine. And he has a nice glob of Neosporin on the cut areas.


Glad he is OK. Must be a predisposition of Welsh Cobs, I've sewn an eyelid back on each of two of my guys. Fortunately once done (knock on wood) that particular cob did not repeat "it". They keep reminding me though that I have yet to successfully cob proof all of their furniture

[Pocket Pony]

Contact ??

SERGIO GALÁN ACOSO Y DERRIBO II

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1RAz...feature=fvwrel

I didn't watch it all, but that white horse is amazing! And the man has quite the seat. It is interesting to look at an example like that - riding with a *purpose* vs. riding for a test...amazing!

[Sannois]

I thought kande04 was referring to this type of situation:


The infamous sales video of Maxwell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8OqW2ZlujI

vs.

Photos of Max as he has become healthy (unfinished website blog thing):

http://ponytaleswebsite.com/maxwell_movement.html

I know I am just popping in, but Does the first Video not Disturb anyone else?
That horse does not look sound. And I think it is a result of how he is ridden not his movement. AGH. Someone better to judge than me comment please?

[alicen]

The riders are doing tempo control (fast/slow) to pursue submission. But they forget that properly comes FROM COLLECTION.

So are you saying that there's no submission before collection?

That a horse stands still while being mounted, that a horse aligns himself perfectly at the mounting block for dismounting, that a horse goes where, when, and how without resistence when asked, in my mind, is submission. Peanut rollers are submitting, but I doubt it comes from collection because there's no impulsion to collect.

[CFFarm]

Contact? You betcha.
Not so much here: http://www.cowboyway.com/RanchCuttingHorsePictures.htm

How's Max's eye doing?

I have the feeling that if the cows in the cowboy pictures decided to turn and charge the horses, those riders would pick up some contact soon enough! LOL

[CFFarm]

Contact? You betcha.
Not so much here: http://www.cowboyway.com/RanchCuttingHorsePictures.htm

How's Max's eye doing?

I have the feeling that if the cows in the cowboy pictures decided to turn and charge the horses, those riders would pick up some contact soon enough! LOL

[alicen]

It is interesting to look at an example like that - riding with a *purpose* vs. riding for a test...amazing!

Maybe, at my age, I'm not so easily amazed anymore. There are hockey players and figure skaters, sports car races and Indie car races, classical and heavy metal music, etc., etc., etc. But I dare say, a Grand Prix competitive dressage horse is not being ridden willy nilly w/o a purpose.

[alicen]

Someone better to judge than me comment please?

I fail to see that your post has anything to do with this thread.

[ideayoda]

It's worth pointing out that the modern, "German" system WAS designed for the heavier, carriage-type military horse, not the Iberian favored by Haute Ecole.

But this is NOT true. The officiers horses of northern europe (sweden/denmark/germany/france/etc) were tb/trakener type horse. Any 'favor' came after the second war when so many horses had died, and by judges 'allowing' shoulder movement (from horses bred to wear a collar) to override ground gaining. ALL horses can have true extensions (gain ground/overstride). The fact is that the tb types tend have better canters and lightness in piaffe/short backed horses are difficult to really extend the frame/etc. Short backed horses were bred for working in groups indoors, tb/wb for working outside. So the 'tests' were a mixture of both. People are often attrached to flashiness rather than substance (which takes an educated eye).