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  1. #21
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    I love this discussions and don't believe anyone should limit themselves to one school, one trainer or even one discipline. Wisdom comes in all forms.

    "The definition of what is said to be Classical, has arrested all forward progress in this art by limiting the horizon to those who wish to study it more profoundly"
    Nuno Oliverira



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Not Native View Post

    If, in the book he shows photos of true piaffes and then show examples of "top level" piaffs, why is it that the incorrect one is awarded praise?
    These are just my ponderings. Hopefully this doesn't ramble on too poorly.
    I am not an FEI judge, nor have I read the book you are reading, but one of the things I've noticed is that the directives for piaffe don't seem as complete as they need to be to judge a French piaffe. If you listen to commentators you'll here lots of "on the spot" you don't hear "look at that abdominal engagement and pelvic rotation". A great example would be that lovely mahogany horse from Portugal at the last Olympics. His piaffe was spectacular, but it didn't score as high as some with out hind legs.

    Also I believe there's a difference between a preparatory/therapeutic movement, and a testing movement. The piaffe when seen in competition is a testing movement, where the French is therapeutic, and used more for preparing to levade (testing).
    Perhaps it makes more sense to think of it this way: a second level rider's stretchy trot work is therapeutic (bringing greater suppleness and elasticity to the horse), while the first level rider's stretchy trot is testing (is the horse true in his contact and working through his body correctly)
    (I'm not citing this as fact, but more a hypothesis)

    Another point is competition, [deleted so as not to confuse with misinformation]
    Last edited by Petstorejunkie; Nov. 18, 2012 at 09:53 AM.
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  3. #23
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    "If, in the book he shows photos of true piaffes and then show examples of "top level" piaffs, why is it that the incorrect one is awarded praise?" That IS the question (for people who ARE judges/trainers). The definitions (of the fei) ARE complete enough, they need to be HELD. Where are the lowered quarters? Why are horses which balancee (go side to side in front), very high behind with the hindlegs, leaning over the forelegs, with straighten hock hindfeet wayyy under (all of which show the horse is on the forehand) being given good+ scores?

    The (fei) directives were NOT created around the german training scale, they were written by a frenchman (Decarpentry). The training scale came later as part of the FN manual for EVALUATING training (probably about 30 years later), and that was based upon the french cavalry manual (from 1896).

    I would disagree that the french use piaffe as a prep for levade because they (Cadre Noir) use levade far less, and often only get pasade instead (higher stance). The srs uses piaffe before levade as did the old german cavalry (officers).

    Traditionally all schools use ALL exercises/figures are therapeutic and to develop suppleness and balance.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  4. #24
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    Nuno Oliveira had a large following of women, from what I have been told.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfiTT...eature=related



  5. #25
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    He did, and a few guys (like Paul Belasik). But he was (esp here/bull fight aspect) more the Portuguese side, the bsm was developed more with age.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFFarm View Post
    "The definition of what is said to be Classical, has arrested all forward progress in this art by limiting the horizon to those who wish to study it more profoundly"
    Nuno Oliverira
    Really? Sounds like a certain poster here who blames the powers that be for his lack of success as a trainer.

    CFFarm, do you know the source of that quote?



  7. #27
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    I have NO desire to train my horse like (to do) this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy4Y8dylJFY



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    ... the bsm was developed more with age.
    Ah ha!!!!!



  9. #29
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    And just exactly what does "bsm" stand for?



  10. #30
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    bsm=baucher's second method

    Baroque, in re-schooling a horse (this is what the vid was to show): do you consider the exercises a bad idea, or ?? (since these are de la G's exercises). I don't like his equitation here, but what about the rest? Dont care for schooling in walk? Think it is over tempo (or is that the few fps which makes it look rushed)?
    Last edited by ideayoda; Nov. 18, 2012 at 09:27 AM. Reason: clarity
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  11. #31
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    The second video drove me nuts! The walk work, the overbent neck and the reinbacks ... for starters.

    The horse's head would pop up because, while working on the curb, the reins are semi-loose and then he asks for something .... not smooth at all.

    One should be able to drop the reins and then pick them up again without ever effecting the horse's head, even if the horse cannot "carry" himself.



  12. #32
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    The video is not the best (fuzzy), but the complete lack of stretching and reaching under.

    I am one of those that prefers "ground covering" gaits, the type that one develops for riding outside of the arena.

    Now, if I were bullfighting, that would be a very different story.



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    The (fei) directives were NOT created around the german training scale, they were written by a frenchman (Decarpentry). The training scale came later as part of the FN manual for EVALUATING training (probably about 30 years later), and that was based upon the french cavalry manual (from 1896).
    You are by far the better historian than I.
    Could it be that we are seeing the long term effects of the use of the training scale in this polarity?
    (I know, heated controversial question, but I am curious)
    www.destinationconsensusequus.com
    chaque pas est fait ensemble



  14. #34
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    (First know that N.O. is not a particular fav, but I have ridden his lovely horses and even years later they were easy to ride/they retained their lightness when treated fairly.)

    In any case, with the grey horse (he is not asking it to do med walk/etc and he does walk on the buckle with all the horses)., he is asking the horse to rebalance/react with the hind legs which do not take hh, that initially creates tension. (I think this is a vid (with very few fps..hence looks problematic when likely the tempo was slower) of a horse he sold and had not seen for two years...not sure).

    I do not see an overbent neck (not longitudinally), and anything laterally is part of the entre body being used in si/t/r/reverse pirouettes/etc (which are de la G exercises straight 'out of the book'). Reinbacks are used to get the horse to reuse the hindlegs (and it reveals how stuck this horse is, esp at the beginning. His point is to change balance, to allow for a different reaction (which shows up) in the changing balance (and reuse of the neck). I see very little use of the curb (occastionally to lower), always lightening the hand to allow (changed) self carriage. Action/reaction/etc Not agressive, but asking for lateral flexibility the horse becomes more supple and balanced (through the application of exercises).
    Would I use more slowed tempo? Yes. Do I think he did (from watching him train)? Probably.

    "One should be able to drop the reins and then pick them up again without ever effecting the horse's head, " I would agree if the horse is in balance/etc. If not, there will be/should be changes.

    How can there be stretching/reaching (except with flat hindlegs which is what this horse initially wanted to do) under if the horse is not first connected and mobile in the jaw? And is that what is wanted in collection or when one wants greater flexion of the hindleg joints? Ground covering gaits=extension/medium. In this horse I see he wants first collectability/collection, then ground covering/freedom.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  15. #35
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    I think PK has it right, that the use of the t.s. (1 rhythm/tempo/creates relaxation; 2 suppleness (lateral flexiblity leads to longitudinal flexion; 3 contact (flexion according to the level); 4 impulsion (elastic lifting and placing of the hind legs; 5 straightness (created progressively/control of the shoulders) and 6 collection (amplitude) IS more a way of EVALATING (aka judging) TRAINING.

    But no I do not think that that is the basis of the polarity. Until about 30 years ago (pre-rk) there was little polarity. The french were more lightness above all, and the germans more exacting...but even after a games (where the french/german rode each other's horses), they agreed on that. But they were ALL about SELF CARRIAGE (virtually not seen in competition any longer). I rode with MANY of the odgs and they have very very few differences from PK...what does have differences is what is allowed in competition and given scores above 5!
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  16. #36
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    ideayoda, my comment on the reins refers only to the rider's hands. How smooth are they?? How light are they really?? I am referring to the rider's abilty to always be able to feel the horse's mouth .... no matter what the horse is doing, green, sour, correct ....

    "One should be able to drop the reins and then pick them up again without ever effecting the horse's head, " I would agree if the horse is in balance/etc. If not, there will be/should be changes.



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post

    I do not see an overbent neck (not longitudinally), and anything laterally is part of the entre body being used in si/t/r/reverse pirouettes/etc (which are de la G exercises straight 'out of the book'). Reinbacks are used to get the horse to reuse the hindlegs (and it reveals how stuck this horse is, esp at the beginning. His point is to change balance, to allow for a different reaction (which shows up) in the changing balance (and reuse of the neck). I see very little use of the curb (occastionally to lower), always lightening the hand to allow (changed) self carriage. Action/reaction/etc Not agressive, but asking for lateral flexibility the horse becomes more supple and balanced (through the application of exercises).
    Would I use more slowed tempo? Yes. Do I think he did (from watching him train)? Probably.
    From a relative novice point of view the horse DOES change the steps become higher the neck/body of the horse takes on a more supple appearance (it is not the most spectacular horse looks very croup high at the beginning-but even in my novice sort of understanding you can see the horses body soften/relax almost as if it fills/expands ). And oddly enough I was reading Education of the Horse and Rider last night--and what is shown in the NO video was like video reel of what is discussed in that book-even in the progression of the exercises that are shown.



  18. #38
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    one thing i can say for sure re: NO - he has a profound affect on each horse he sits on. He makes a difference!

    and honestly - whether I like what i see as a whole or not does not matter - each and every time i watch one of his vids i learn something - and it is immediately applicable to my riding.

    he was a master of use of the seat and how to use the horses body to produce change.

    i find it mind blowing.....


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  19. #39
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    Just a quick 2 cents. The German's have been successful in competition dressage, because they are very precise in their tests for one thing. They also produce and ride horses with big spectacular gaits, and the public likes to see those spectacular extensions. IMO they often lack in the collected department.

    The classical-oriented tastes have been more geared to collected movements and work in more intimate "small spaces". IMO they often lack in the extension department.

    There are many who aspire and train for both.

    JMHO


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  20. #40
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    In reference to my comment on the grey horse N.O. was reschooling, 'overbent in the neck' .... I should have said, laterally overbent in the neck.



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