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  1. #21
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    Surprise me then.



  2. #22
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    There is youtube video of Salazar threatening to punch a reporter that asked him about his ties to Davis and what happened to the Mustangs...


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by wireweiners View Post
    Actually, it depends on how long he keeps them. IIRC, all the BLM requires is that you keep the horses for a year. After that you can sell them to whomever and for whatever you please. So if he is "adopting" these horses from the BLM and keeping them for the required period and then shipping them to a slaughter plant, then he's breaking no law.
    Personally, I don't have a problem with sending the unadoptable horses to slaughter. The don't have the drugs in their system that folks have been complaining about so the meat isn't tainted. They have no other use, so why not set up a slaughter plant just for mustangs.
    A big reason is that the American people felt strongly enough to want to protect these animals and passed the Wild horse and burro protection act. The American taxpayer paid for the lands the horses roam on to protect them. I am sure there are those that do what you say and skirt the law it probably happens more then we will ever know.


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  4. #24
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    Speaking of those who abuse wild Mustangs, did you all see Jason Meduna of Three Strikes Ranch got caught with horses again? Back in the slammer for ol Ja'!


    2 members found this post helpful.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper324 View Post
    A big reason is that the American people felt strongly enough to want to protect these animals and passed the Wild horse and burro protection act. The American taxpayer paid for the lands the horses roam on to protect them. I am sure there are those that do what you say and skirt the law it probably happens more then we will ever know.
    and the American people, especially those who live somewhere in the middle of a city out east have absolutely no idea what the Mustangs and Burros are about.
    And that they decimate the range if left alone.

    Romantic is all nice and dandy, but it won't pay the rent, or make it rain!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    and the American people, especially those who live somewhere in the middle of a city out east have absolutely no idea what the Mustangs and Burros are about.
    And that they decimate the range if left alone.

    Romantic is all nice and dandy, but it won't pay the rent, or make it rain!
    Cattle don't exactly leave it pristine either.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela Freda View Post
    Cattle don't exactly leave it pristine either.
    Well, thank you for proving my point.

    Cattle does not stay on the range indefinitely.
    And BLM yanks permit when the range can't handle it.

    But yes, the evil cattle ranchers....let's overlook that many do spend a lot of their own money to help preserve public lands and make water available for native species....

    But those are the little facts we won't let get in our way, will we!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    Whatever you subsidize . . . you get more of. Goes without saying.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Eboshi View Post
    Whatever you subsidize . . . you get more of. Goes without saying.
    That is rather nonsensical.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alagirl View Post
    and the American people, especially those who live somewhere in the middle of a city out east have absolutely no idea what the Mustangs and Burros are about.
    And that they decimate the range if left alone.

    Romantic is all nice and dandy, but it won't pay the rent, or make it rain!
    I don't know if you are a rancher or not but regardless, 20,000 horses should be just fine on the few hundred thousand acres THE AMERICAN people paid for to conserve. I found this article http://www.sfgate.com/business/prweb...to-4398644.php
    on April FOols day so maybe it was a joke. Even if a joke, it scares the bejibbers out of me because Mustangs will soon be the new "in" food, kind of like shark fin soup.


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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper324 View Post
    I don't know if you are a rancher or not but regardless, 20,000 horses should be just fine on the few hundred thousand acres THE AMERICAN people paid for to conserve. I found this article http://www.sfgate.com/business/prweb...to-4398644.php
    on April FOols day so maybe it was a joke. Even if a joke, it scares the bejibbers out of me because Mustangs will soon be the new "in" food, kind of like shark fin soup.
    You are repeating what the wrong people ell you!


    Have you EVER been out west?

    I have been.
    A couple of times. I was gobsmacked particularly driving form Seattle to Yakima.
    Once you pass the 'summit' of the Cascades, the biggest 'tree' is a knee high sage brush! It takes ACRES ro support one cow, for a few weeks of the year. If it rained that is.
    This is not the green hills of Virginia, or the deep south with abundance of rain! It's arid.

    I know. It flies in the face of what we want to believe.

    However, if you own your own farm, you know how dstructive horses are on the fields, that is with plenty of water and care.


    The American people are paying for it...oh gimme a break.

    The American people are paying the BLM to preserve the range. And because some American People from out East thinks they know better does not mean that is actually the case. Your post is proof positive!.

    it is a bit of a steep learning curve for some to realize that there is no one size fits all. My gardening in Alabama is very different from somebody in New York or Montana.
    So is preservation of the natural habitat - of which horses are not a part.
    Deer, antelope, birds, bees...coyotes....they all have their place. and if the horses - with no real predator in place to keep them in check, and let's face it, we would not like that one bit if there was - will destroy the range, a fragile eco system that with the restricted resources that are available will take a long time - if ever to recover.
    In the mean time the horses starve, along with the native species...and we, the 'American People' lost a valuable treasure. because somebody could not understand that an abundance of knee high shrubs does not mean edible forage for horses.
    But then again, we do run into this out east as well...weeds as tall as the elephant's eye, and oh wonders the horse is skin and bones.


    Now, as to catching the fat and shiney ones....would you feel better (generic you) if they waited until they got skinny and starved?

    it's the Bureau of Land Management not the Mustang petting zoo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #32
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    This thread for the most part seems to almost condone this person and BLM breaking the rules because these horses are a nuisance and a taxpayer expense... A better look needs to be taken at what to do with these guys - not sure if Australia's program of vaccinating the mares against pregnancy has helped them keep the numbers down to justifying the expense of vaccinating them.
    But nevertheless, this must have been an absolutely terrifying way to go out for an awful lot of horses. And whether you think this guy did a necessary evil, I think he should at least have to face a judge and jury as well as all his enablers.


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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by candico View Post
    This thread for the most part seems to almost condone this person and BLM breaking the rules because these horses are a nuisance and a taxpayer expense... A better look needs to be taken at what to do with these guys - not sure if Australia's program of vaccinating the mares against pregnancy has helped them keep the numbers down to justifying the expense of vaccinating them.
    But nevertheless, this must have been an absolutely terrifying way to go out for an awful lot of horses. And whether you think this guy did a necessary evil, I think he should at least have to face a judge and jury as well as all his enablers.
    Condone?
    not really.

    it's not how the system is supposed to work, and once they have the right breakdowns located, I hope consequences with follow.


    However, these 'discussions' always break down to 'poor little mustangs, leave hem be' when it is just simply not feasible. Just isn't.

    And contrary to some select voices, the BLM does not exist to warehouse 30k feral horses indefinitely - at tax payers expense.
    it would be more prudent to clear the back log, eliminate the cost and - well, do the same thing again the following year until the herds have shrunk to a more sustainable size.
    Some advocate for complete removal of the bands. They are a non native invasive species after all.

    So, yes, if this guy broke the laws, he needs to have his day in court.
    Along with those other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.


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  14. #34
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    Two neighbor's boys went to Australia to work on ranches there for a year or so.
    Per their stories, they shoot brumbies, their feral horses, from helicopters, as we are starting to have to do with feral hogs in TX, where they are destroying every place they choose to move to.

    In some places, they had mobile slaughter trucks that followed the helicopters and slaughtered the horses, as many as they could before they were too gone to do so.

    I would hope we don't get to have to do that here to control our feral horses, but if we keep letting them grow in numbers without some controls, as designated by the 1971 laws passed then to protect both, feral horses and the ranges assigned to them, we may end up like Australia, with a real problem.



  15. #35
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    Bluey- somewhere there is a documentary about the brumby culls - I saw it years ago, was horrified - there has to be a better way.

    I don't understand why they don't make an attempt at birth control.

    Even if they were only able to administer it to portions of the herds, it would help to reduce numbers.

    Or round up (it's not a "gather" for cripes sake - if you've seen one, there's nothing gentle about it), the bachelor stallions, geld them, then release them

    As for them being a non native, invasive species?
    Pretty sure the same can be said for cows - and there are MILLIONS of them out there, versus the number of wild horses.

    As far as pulling the cattle off the ranges periodically? Oh, yeah, ALL the cattle ranchers ALWAYS comply with that - yesiree!

    Please.

    I've actually had a BLM official tell me it's a wink wink, oh sure, they are all compliant with that.

    And water?? Cattle ranchers over and over have been caught closing off natural water sources to wild horses.

    A BLM official showed me pictures of dead wild horses outside an illegal fence that a cattle rancher had put up so they couldn't have access to the water source.

    Lovely - oh yes.
    By all means, let's go back to viewing them the way we did before Wild Horse Annie - I know how about we treat them the way they were treated, say in that movie "The Misfits"? Think that was just a movie?

    Yes, I've been out there over the last 20 years - more than a dozen times).
    Watched over the years, numerous round ups.
    Talked to cattle ranchers, BLM officials, you name it.


    I am sorry I am being snarly - Bluey - none of that was addressed to you !

    I am BY NO MEANS an expert - just relaying my experiences.

    There just has to be a better way.

    And the $80 million dollars a year? Yes, I'd rather feed mustangs with that money, than say, give out free cell phones. Or pay for lavish vacations.

    Or: ■$1 million a year for 19 Los Angeles bus stations to purchase artwork to “enhance the customer experience.”


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #36
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    Cattle are there on weeks long permits and for several years now no cattle have been accepted for many permits because of the drought.
    Don't believe those that want to use that for a reason to let the horses keep abusing those ranges and hurting the chances for the real native species.
    So what, there was one rancher doing something illegal and now all are evil?
    Not really.
    There are plenty of ranchers helping by feeding feral horses in the winter and they don't get any publicity and probably don't want any, is what you do.
    That is like blaming all rescues as evil because some starve horses, all trainers because some beat horses, etc.

    The laws passed in 1970 were for having a certain number of horses on certain designated ranges as a symbol of old times, not to re-home a native, endangered species and let them spread.
    I was there in the early 1970's, while those laws were fought for and passed.

    Those are fragile ranges and have to be treated as such and horses there, more than a designated smallish number, remember they are there year around, just don't make sense, any more than the feral hogs we are getting in our area.
    If those were cute and had the mystique horses have, guess we would not be able to try to control them?

    The BLM can't do right, every time they try something, they get lawsuits and all kinds of groups after them, nothing is good enough.

    I have said before, send the extra horses to parks in the East and let them run wild there and see how long people's minds would change about how many horses we need for a symbol of old times.

    Birth control for feral horses is not really a good idea, it disrupts regular herd dynamics when mares keep coming in heat and don't get bred, as one vaccine causes, or gelding makes male horses fight much more, causing more injuries to all, mares and foals also.

    The best way for now, with the least disruption, is to keep culling, take so many out as they reproduce, some years more, some less, depending on the numbers.

    The herds in Oregon do a better job of that than others, they have less groups making a living off the drama of "save the wild horses" causes of the moment.

    Want to know more, from the horse's mouth, this author has helped with feral horses, raised many orphaned foals from the roundups and really knows what is going on:

    http://www.oregonslivinglegends.com/



  17. #37
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    Alagirl I have a farm in the most densley populated State in the country. I have no problem managing 8 horses on an acre a piece in fact I only throw hay from October to Mid April. My pastures are wonderful and the horses look great.
    I am well aware of geological differences and would guess any wild horses in Alabama are ones Billy Bob let loose.Dog shelters in Alabama also bear the brunt of the Billy Bob mentality who don't spay or neuter their dogs and cats,should we sell them to China?
    I have yet to see emaciated horses in round up videos ive seen which is living proof these horses are doing well. Of course human encroachment has happened on once virgin land in the foreclosures capitol of the Usa, Nevada and I'm sure lots of horses were let loose. My point is the American people wanted our wild horse and burrows to have protected habitat and they should not be removed and exterminated.


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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper324 View Post
    Alagirl I have a farm in the most densley populated State in the country. I have no problem managing 8 horses on an acre a piece in fact I only throw hay from October to Mid April. My pastures are wonderful and the horses look great.
    I am well aware of geological differences and would guess any wild horses in Alabama are ones Billy Bob let loose.Dog shelters in Alabama also bear the brunt of the Billy Bob mentality who don't spay or neuter their dogs and cats,should we sell them to China?
    I have yet to see emaciated horses in round up videos ive seen which is living proof these horses are doing well. Of course human encroachment has happened on once virgin land in the foreclosures capitol of the Usa, Nevada and I'm sure lots of horses were let loose. My point is the American people wanted our wild horse and burrows to have protected habitat and they should not be removed and exterminated.
    Nonsense, no one wants to "remove and exterminate" those feral horses.

    MANAGE them, don't let them destroy the ranges that were assignated to a certain number of them by overbreeding is not "remove and exterminate", pure nonsense.

    Read other than certain myths and propaganda, like the book I linked to, from someone right there and doing it's share.


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  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper324 View Post
    My point is the American people wanted our wild horse and burrows to have protected habitat and they should not be removed and exterminated.
    Yep, and few issues get as many public comments! That was my point that of course this is not purely an economic issue!!! Sure, the issues are complex - range management issues usually are (hello wolf wars), but the public will not tolerate wholesale slaughter/extermination, and when BLM uses the term "management" they are going to have to be accountable for whatever strategies they implement. I live "out west" - in Montana -
    where mustang/wolf/logging issues are front page news, but these are not "our" horses, they belong to the American people, any more than Glacier or Yellowstone are "our" national parks. And corruption is corruption. That has nothing to do with horse management, just sleazy politics and one hopes, it will be publicized and addressed. Thank God there are activists/people committed to this or these horses and the land they run on would be gone long ago (and Oregon has plenty of wild horse activists!!)


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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper324 View Post
    Alagirl I have a farm in the most densley populated State in the country. I have no problem managing 8 horses on an acre a piece in fact I only throw hay from October to Mid April. My pastures are wonderful and the horses look great.
    I am well aware of geological differences and would guess any wild horses in Alabama are ones Billy Bob let loose.Dog shelters in Alabama also bear the brunt of the Billy Bob mentality who don't spay or neuter their dogs and cats,should we sell them to China?
    I have yet to see emaciated horses in round up videos ive seen which is living proof these horses are doing well. Of course human encroachment has happened on once virgin land in the foreclosures capitol of the Usa, Nevada and I'm sure lots of horses were let loose. My point is the American people wanted our wild horse and burrows to have protected habitat and they should not be removed and exterminated.
    Ok.


    First: don't get off track. The dogs are not at discussion here. Not to mention that northern shelters 'import' plenty of dogs from down south.

    Second:
    The range does not support 1 horse per one acre.
    There is no owner to throw them hay and rotate pasture.

    What the American People want and what is actually feasible, well, like a whole lot of other things The American People want.

    Right now the American people get exactly that: 30+k horses in a feedlot type situation, costing a good bid of money which - naturally - not all tax payers agree on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    Personally, I think the moderate use of shock collars in training humans should be allowed.



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