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  1. #1
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    Default Is there a shortage of TB Stallions approved by Warmblood Registries in North America

    Just out of curiosity. I am wondering what thoroughbred stallions are at this time approved by warmblood registries in North America.

    Coconut Grove was certainly highly regarded but unfortunately is no more. Is there no frozen available on this stallion?

    Of all the thoroughbreds bred in North America I find it hard to believe that this is true.

    Eventers must be crying for blood. It is certainly easier to fit up the blood horses for that level of competition.

    Not a debate, just curious.



  2. #2
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    I don't think the "lack " of approved TB stallions is a problem in this country. Why? Because we have a large TB mare base. If eventers need blood, we have that in the available mare base.
    That being said, I do believe there are several approved stallions in N. America. What about A Fine Romance, and Sea Accounts? I'm sure there are others, but this is certainly not my area of expertise!
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hocus Focus View Post
    Just out of curiosity. I am wondering what thoroughbred stallions are at this time approved by warmblood registries in North America.

    Coconut Grove was certainly highly regarded but unfortunately is no more. Is there no frozen available on this stallion?

    Of all the thoroughbreds bred in North America I find it hard to believe that this is true.

    Eventers must be crying for blood. It is certainly easier to fit up the blood horses for that level of competition.

    Not a debate, just curious.
    There are literally thousands of lovely TB stallions in this country! Very few owners of TB stallions care about WB registries. Sadly the only influx of TB blood going into the US Warmbloods is through TB mares.

    Now, as to whether or not Eventers are crying, some how I doubt it! Both Eventers and Hunter people concentrate more on performance than they do on Registries or registration papers. Many do not even see the benefit of "registries," but they do see the cost.

    There are so many superb TB stallions in the US that if anyone wants to use them, they can just inquire. Another benefit of a TB stallion is that many do not require the stud fee be paid prior to the time that the foal stands and nurses.
    http://www.herselffarm.com
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  4. #4
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    Default

    It's certainly hard to find them. There are a few but not nearly the number that you'd expect/want if you're planning on crossing them onto Warmblood mares and registering the offspring.

    There are some that would be fantastic, but if they've also had success breeding race TBs they're 1)not approved anywhere 2)expensive 3)live cover only.

    Also we seem oblivious to the quality that is often right under our noses. Seems like there have been quite a few that have been underused in the US and then get attention when they go to Europe and get approved over there.

    I wish more stallion owners would take the time to present their TB stallions for approval, and/or for the existence of a TB/half TB sport horse registry (remember what the PHR was supposed to be).

    I can think of some that may be really nice in this area, and even though their stud fee is super cheap, they're not approved anywhere so the foals can't be registered. Also the stallions have had little or no performance career and have covered a ton of very average mares. At the end of the day, a stud fee is a drop in the bucket when producing a foal - so I'd really have a hard time justifying using them because the foals just wouldn't be marketable from a sales perspective.

    As for eventers crying for blood, there are just not that many people doing it. The ones that are serious about it won't be too worried about using the high blooded imported semen (Mighty Magic, Alligator Fontaine, Jaguar Mail....) or are using a TB mare base to begin with. Also lots are just repurposed race horses or horses bred for other disciplines.

    Personally, I'd LOVE to see more - but I don't know that we have the breeding base to make the stallion owners care to jump through registry hoops.
    The rebel in the grey shirt



  5. #5
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    Jun. 24, 2012
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    Default

    The main reason is that we still have a large TB mare base here AND many of the people breeding WB mares that need some refinement or "blood" will do so through "refining" stallions that are just more modern type or those that have TB or Trakehner blood closer up in the pedigree. This also avoids an FI cross which some breeders, if not specifically breeding for that or are not looking into breeding long term, are not prepared to risk. F1 crosses are very good for many things but the most reliability actually comes when the TB is in the 2 or 3rd generation. This avoids the situation of having a mare bred to a considerable different "type" therefore increasing chance of the resulting offspring being more in line with what the breeder would like to produce. It's a slow process.

    Edited to add: for producing eventers, I agree, the stallion base is limited here. I suspect that is why most bring in the TB blood via the mare or use a Trakehner mare with suitable bloodlines...



  6. #6
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    Or you can look at a half-blood stallion like Sandro's Star, who just finished 4th of 21 stallions at the 70 day SPT at Silver Creek. He earned 10's for cross-country gallop and cross-country jumping - and I believe he was the only stallion to earn 10's in those categories. He is by Sagnol (Sandro Hit / Landadel) and out of a TB mare, so he has a pretty high percentage of "blood".


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  7. #7
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    For RPSI, if a TB has won $100,000 on the track, he doesn't even need to be seen, let alone Approved. We saw an example recently. WB mare bred to a TB stallion, foal received the full brand and will be a papered "Warmblood". I'm not sure what winning $100,000 on the race track has to do with "good, riding horse type", but that's just me. IMO if you want a bit more "blood" you are far better off using a good Trakehner.



  8. #8
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    My Guaranteed Gold (TB) stallion is CSHA (Canadian Sport Horse Association) approved. CSHA is a member of the WBFSH

    Mare Owners with ATA and SWANA mares have bred their mares to him and received Appendix papers on those foals. The fillies are then able to "move up" within the respective registries and once they hit 3 years of age or older, and are bred to full ATA or SWANA stallions, those foals would get full papers.

    RPSI mares bred to him also get their foals inspected, graded, registered and branded (half brand - and I havent come across anyone yet who feels slighted that their foal only got a half and not full brand). They still call it a WB with RPSI registration.

    We've had some AHS mares bred to him and not sure what the registration options are for those foals

    BWP mares have also had their foals inspected, graded and registered

    The only registries I am not sure how they would view the foals are Old NA and GOV - does anyone know?

    His European full TB offspring can also be inspected and graded which is what is happening with his coming 3 year old son in Germany

    From my perspective, that covers about 85-90% (or more!) of the mares that are looking to breed to him. Add in the AQHA, APHA, ApHc, Draft, Morgan, TB, Arabian, CSHA, etc mares and its probably closer to 90-95%

    So - I weigh the pros and cons of putting him through a 70D test to pick up - maybe - 5-10% more mares and I dont feel the end justifies the means in my case

    Thats why in my case Im happy with his current status and have "0" interest in changing anything and perhaps other TB stallion owners feel pretty much the same way as I do ...



  9. #9
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    I know that Kathy's boy Goldmaker is now approved for breeding with RPSI book I so his foals are eligable for full brand.
    http://www.avalon-equine.com/goldmaker.html
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  10. #10
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    Default

    I am learning a lot here and about other questions as well. Thanks.



  11. #11
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    Mar. 16, 2006
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    The ATA currently has 2 Tb stallions approved for breeding:
    Sea Accounts http://americantrakehner.com/Stallions/SeaAccounts.asp
    and Sea Elephant http://americantrakehner.com/Stallions/SeaElephant.asp
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  12. #12
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    Just curious, how many breeder's would actually use a TB stallion if he was approved? It doesn't seem like (at least from what I've read on COTH) that many breeder's would be interested in TB stallions.

    We have what I consider a lovely TB stallion, and I would love to present him to some of the warmblood registries, even though we are using him presently for race babies. He has what I consider very nice dressage type movement, at least until he gallops, then it's all race horse. But I wonder if it is worth the money? He'd have to be presented, then either do the 70 day test (which I wouldn't do) or would have to go the route of performance, which is also a lot of money for shows. How likely would it be that he would get more than just one or two mares a year?

    Sheila
    Sheila Zeltt
    Chestnut Run Stable & Zeltt Racing Stable
    www.Zeltt.com
    Standing "Tiz Brian" at Stud, 16.1 h bay TB by Tiznow



  13. #13
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  14. #14
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    Chestnut Run, perhaps you should talk to Gail, who owns A Fine Romance? I believe his book fills very quickly.


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  15. #15
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    We would love to present our guy to some warmblood registries, the only issue is finances. We have no doubt he would be accepted in to many of the warmblood books, but getting the testing done is not cheap.



  16. #16
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    I bet many Eventer wouldn't care.



  17. #17
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    A Fine Romance - Highly sought after/respected
    Coconut Grove - Very successful as a sire.
    Sea Accounts - I've just started hearing about him (opposite coast) but he's on my watch list.

    I'd also consider using one that had done the job (at FEI levels) whether or not he was actually approved anywhere....

    But at the end of the day, a foal also needs to be marketable. A warmblood registry is a great place to start.

    Edited to add - Oooh! Thanks for the info about RPSI! I lust after this old man. Wonder if they could be convinced to ship semen though....
    Corporate Report
    Last edited by JWB; Nov. 15, 2012 at 07:02 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chestnut Run View Post
    Just curious, how many breeder's would actually use a TB stallion if he was approved? It doesn't seem like (at least from what I've read on COTH) that many breeder's would be interested in TB stallions.
    TB stallions such as A Fine Romance get used for basically four reasons: 1) his pedigree; 2) he himself was a big winner at a very high level at very big rated shows; 3) his kids are also winning at very high levels in various disciplines and 4) his conformation for sport is outstanding.

    A Fine Romance is PROVEN, not just APPROVED. That's the difference. I breed Holsteiners but would use him in a heartbeat if I had a mare I thought would cross on him.
    Fan of the Swedish Chef


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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Fish View Post
    A Fine Romance is PROVEN, not just APPROVED. That's the difference. I breed Holsteiners but would use him in a heartbeat if I had a mare I thought would cross on him.
    And that's the bottom line of what I meant in my post. Stallions similar to mine, since he is only 5 and barely started in his second career, and his first foals only coming in 2013, it's really not worth trying to get him approved at this point. Even if he was approved, he wouldn't get much if any interest. Maybe after he's competing, but right now it makes no financial sense.

    And I think that's why, OP, there aren't many TB stallions presented to warmblood registries. It's not financially feasible until they are competing at a fairly high level, which it takes a ton of money to get them there. So horses like my guy with his excellent racing bloodlines, are used to breed race horses. It makes their owners money without having to pour a ton out to get results.

    Nothing wrong with it either way, just the way it is. I love all horses, but particularly TBs. I would love to breed a few WBs, but with the TBs we can race them first and then put them in other sports careers.

    Sheila
    Sheila Zeltt
    Chestnut Run Stable & Zeltt Racing Stable
    www.Zeltt.com
    Standing "Tiz Brian" at Stud, 16.1 h bay TB by Tiznow


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  20. #20
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    Baatesh passed the 70-day test and I believe is now approved RPSI.

    Ivory Coast is recorded with RPSI (Studbook II). I bought a filly by him this year and I believe she has a full brand.

    Is Innkeeper still around?
    Sheila Armstrong



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