[poltroon]

I think the FEI needs to hire a REAL translator and not rely on BableFish or Google Translate when they publish documents! Then maybe we could understand what the heck they are saying!

BabelFish would explain a lot...

[nutmeg]

A quick solution for the show jumpers would be for Everyone to become (and stay) Ukrainian if they haven't already.

[GotSpots]

If their intent was to get at indoor eventing, strikes me that their clarification excludes it, since the "indoor" form isn't an "international discipline," lacking the scope of the endurance test in a true CIC or CCI, as well as lacking the separate show jumping and dressage tests...

[ACMEeventing]

Think of the money the FEI stands to LOSE with this shenanigans.

There are lots of riders (like myself) who have aspirations of competing in a 1*, perhaps as early as the coming competition year. Why on Earth would I enter now? If by competing in the most basic of FEI events I now disqualify myself from competing in any unrecognized shows it makes absolutely no sense to spend the money on the 1*.

I have dozens of schooling show opportunities each year, all within a 90 minute drive (don't hate me). I also see handfuls of FEI level riders at many of them. Until such day that I have evolved into a seasoned mega rider the FEI won't get a penny of my money.

What a pile of malarchy.

[tle]

There are lots of riders (like myself) who have aspirations of competing in a 1*, perhaps as early as the coming competition year. Why on Earth would I enter now? If by competing in the most basic of FEI events I now disqualify myself from competing in any unrecognized shows it makes absolutely no sense to spend the money on the 1*.

Ah-Ha!! A way to bring people BACK to the classic format! You can run a 1* and not be in any way under the thumb of the FEI. Go classic!! ;-)

[Divine Comedy]

Think of the money the FEI stands to LOSE with this shenanigans.

There are lots of riders (like myself) who have aspirations of competing in a 1*, perhaps as early as the coming competition year. Why on Earth would I enter now? If by competing in the most basic of FEI events I now disqualify myself from competing in any unrecognized shows it makes absolutely no sense to spend the money on the 1*.

I have dozens of schooling show opportunities each year, all within a 90 minute drive (don't hate me). I also see handfuls of FEI level riders at many of them. Until such day that I have evolved into a seasoned mega rider the FEI won't get a penny of my money.

What a pile of malarchy.

FEI has clarified the rule (per Eventing Nation) and is only including unrecognized shows of an international caliber at which there are at least 15 international riders from at least 4 different countries. Basically, this seems to be aimed at high level Dressage and Jumping festivals/cups/whatnot that are not currently under the FEI umbrella. This does not stop you, or me, or Boyd Martin for that matter, from being able to do both FEI and unrecognized schooling shows.

This thread exasperates me (mostly because of the extreme reactions BEFORE receiving clarification on the rule, it was too absurd a rule to not need clarification), and yet I can't stop reading it. It cracks me up that the H&H thread I was reading on the same subject yesterday immediately calms down as soon as clarification is handed down, yet this thread has almost gotten more indignant.

Do we even have any INTERNATIONAL caliber unrecognized events running in this country? Definitely no eventing, but even for Jumpers and Dressage? Or is this really aimed at European events?

[ACMEeventing]

FEI has clarified the rule (per Eventing Nation) and is only including unrecognized shows of an international caliber at which there are at least 15 international riders from at least 4 different countries. Basically, this seems to be aimed at high level Dressage and Jumping festivals/cups/whatnot that are not currently under the FEI umbrella. This does not stop you, or me, or Boyd Martin for that matter, from being able to do both FEI and unrecognized schooling shows.

This thread exasperates me (mostly because of the extreme reactions BEFORE receiving clarification on the rule, it was too absurd a rule to not need clarification), and yet I can't stop reading it. It cracks me up that the H&H thread I was reading on the same subject yesterday immediately calms down as soon as clarification is handed down, yet this thread has almost gotten more indignant.

Do we even have any INTERNATIONAL caliber unrecognized events running in this country? Definitely no eventing, but even for Jumpers and Dressage? Or is this really aimed at European events?

Well, I guess therein lies the confusion. What designates it as an "International caliber"? Does the presence of at least 15 riders representing 4 nations automatically qualify a schooling show? Really, that wouldn't be so hard to do.

Besides, a little indignation on a rainy Thursday pairs perfectly with a nice chardonnay.

[Divine Comedy]

Well, I guess therein lies the confusion. What designates it as an "International caliber"? Does the presence of at least 15 riders representing 4 nations automatically qualify a schooling show? Really, that wouldn't be so hard to do.

Besides, a little indignation on a rainy Thursday pairs perfectly with a nice chardonnay.

The first paragraph in the clarification conveys the intent to me:

"The new rule does not apply to any competition that could never be considered as ‘International’. So small shows, Society shows, pleasure shows etc etc do not come under this new rule."

Regardless of how many nationalities show up at one of Loch Moy's Intro divisions, I could never consider the competition to be 'International.' And they specifically say small/pleasure/society shows don't come under this rule. Many schooling shows are small, or shown under a society banner (CDCTA). But really an International competition to me is very much a large event with levels on a par with the FEI levels (and for jumpers, that is far over the 4' that the eventers top out at, so even most schooling jumper shows wouldn't hit the mark even with a Mini-Prix), perhaps with large prize money or with a group of foreigners specifically invited for the event. Waredaca schooling shows in my book, would definitely not ever be mistaken for an International Event (capital I, capital E)!

[poltroon]

If their intent was to get at indoor eventing, strikes me that their clarification excludes it, since the "indoor" form isn't an "international discipline," lacking the scope of the endurance test in a true CIC or CCI, as well as lacking the separate show jumping and dressage tests...

So the solution is simple. Make your own slightly different rules, and you're no longer in the discipline, and you evade the FEI rule.

However, I think the AQHA World show is still a problem. It has "World" right there in the title!

[poltroon]

This thread exasperates me (mostly because of the extreme reactions BEFORE receiving clarification on the rule, it was too absurd a rule to not need clarification), and yet I can't stop reading it. It cracks me up that the H&H thread I was reading on the same subject yesterday immediately calms down as soon as clarification is handed down, yet this thread has almost gotten more indignant.

My irritation is mostly at the process.

Rules need to be written with clarity and with a careful understanding to what following them to the letter imposes on your riders and officials. This shows a decided lack of either. Indeed, it appears to be a petulant and lazy reaction to some specific pet peeves rather than something that was carefully considered as beneficial to equestrian sport as a whole.

That is what makes me indignant.

[Janet]

OK, Here is what the FEI GR actually SAY about 15 riders and 4 countries

3. Not counting "Athletes Living Outside their Country of Nationality" (Article 119.6), the number of foreign Athletes who may take part at a CN shall, subject to the appropriate laws if applicable, be as specified in the relevant Sport Rules. However, a CN which allows more than fifteen (15) foreign Athletes or more than four (4) different NFs to take part in the Event is considered to be a CI with the following implications:

SO NONE of the Aussies, Canadians, Brits, Thais, Bermudans, South Americans, Italians, Ukrainians, etc LIVING IN THE US count for the FEI rule

[Janet]

The rules are not that badly written.

It is the press releases, and the "explanations" that suck.

[JER]

The FEI is an international organization that exists to (1) regulate and (2) promote equestrian sports.

Therein lies one key issue. The regulatory body is also the promotional body.

While the FEI is also putting forth rules and enforcing them, another of its tentacles is seeking sponsorships and $$$$$$$. This is what it means to 'promote' a sport.

The big marquee sponsors, the anchor tenants, of the FEI have exclusive sponsorship deals. With the FEI, these are Rolex, HSBC, Alltech and Reem Acra. That means Rolex is the official timepiece/timekeeper of the FEI; Alltech is the official supplement, Reem Acra is the official luxury fashion brand.

When you organize an international event, under the auspices of the international governing body,in any sport, the IGB has sponsorship approval. That means if Longines or Tissot or Tag Heuer wants to sponsor your competition, the IGB will deny them, because of the existing deal with Rolex.

Sponsorships get very political very fast. The current trend is for Chinese or Russian vendors desperate to get their name associated with a prestigious international competition. Someone knows someone who knows someone who has a connection to the committee that's deciding the World Cup schedule for next year -- the word gets passed down that Brand X will give six figures for naming rights, except that there someone else who knows someone who knows someone who wants to sponsor that same event but in Dubai or Asia rather than in North America.

In show jumping, it's all right out there for everyone to see. Look who's sponsoring the Global Champions Tour. Jaeger-Lecoultre, who makes watches. Gucci, a luxury fashion brand. Eurosport, who can make a deal without the middleman of FEI. These are sponsors who would be vetoed as FEI competition sponsors.

The only cudgel the FEI can wield is the one with five rings on it, as the IOC recognizes the FEI as the IGB. And wield it they will.

It's dangerous ground, allowing an IGB to be both regulator and promoter. The most egregious example of how this can go wrong is with the staggeringly corrupt UCI, which enabled cycling's biggest names -- riders and sponsors -- to become a rolling festival of pharmaceuticals. Lance Armstrong was, for once, not lying when he said it wasn't about the bike.

"The new rule does not apply to any competition that could never be considered as ‘International’. So small shows, Society shows, pleasure shows etc etc do not come under this new rule."

This is a very ambiguous statement of 'intent'. Who decides when an event can be 'considered' to be 'international'? The FEI. So it's all fine until the FEI decides you're a threat. Or until one of their sponsors complains. Or until one of their sponsors ends their FEI contract and sponsors the Celebration of Airborne Equines down the road.

[JWB]

Here in Central Florida we've I can think of locals that represent three different countries off the top of my head. Throw in the winter crowd and we could very easily have 5 countries represented with 15+ FEI level riders...
I don't really believe that they're going to come after the Rocking Horse/FHP/Canterbury schooling shows in the area, but this rule still smells fishy to me.

[JP60]

I don't really believe that they're going to come after the Rocking Horse/FHP/Canterbury schooling shows in the area, but this rule still smells fishy to me.

I feel what DC and some others miss is that this is just an opening salvo. Test the waters as it were. JER "gets it", and I do too though we come from almost opposite view/experiences.

Again, a press release is not a rule, a clarification is not a rule, a rule is a rule and when they put the language stated in the assembly summery into the GR is when We all will discover the reality. I really doubt they will have "etc etc" in the rules.

I made a joke, but double negatives are great ways to obfuscate (try and prove the negative), and it was an undocumented release. Currently, the only official statement (unless there is some link to some document) is what was found on their website.

I think what folks on this side of the Atlantic are doing is poking at the statements to gauge the validity and they are not liking the result. Also, We, as in Eventers, have not heard word one from either the USEF or USEA on the FEI official statement. This has been out for days. I would rather the pot be kept a little stirred till there is clear indication of a rule that can be governed and enforced then we let this slip into the fabric of the equine sport world.

To garnish on JWB's thought, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."

[Winding Down]

If this is true...it is completely STUPID.

I can't imagine this is true. I do not see it serving any purpose in promoting any sport.

Ditto!

[retreadeventer]

I LOFF exasperating threads! Not enough numping and finging, I say!

[Janet]

Here in Central Florida we've I can think of locals that represent three different countries off the top of my head. Throw in the winter crowd and we could very easily have 5 countries represented with 15+ FEI level riders...

What part of
Not counting "Athletes Living Outside their Country of Nationality"
didn't you understand?

[yaya]

I believe the "15 athletes from 4 countries" part refers to INVITED participants. That's what makes it International. A show open to all where multiple foreigners happen to show up is not included in the restrictions.

In Dressage, they are going after shows like the World Dressage Masters, which is an invitation-only show, is very definitely International, and operates outside of FEI sanctioning.

[deltawave]

Glad to hear it seems to have been a tempest in a teacup. Mighty entertaining, though--it's kind of fun to get oneself into a righteous furor every now and then.