The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 12 of 13 FirstFirst ... 210111213 LastLast
Results 221 to 240 of 258
  1. #221
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,375

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Maybe this has been mentioned, but I took the FEI's "welfare" argument to be more about frequency of competitions. The FEI wants a monopoly on top-level competitions, so it does not want there to be a choice to either compete at Global Champions OR the next FEI competition. The FEI is framing this as, "a rider might choose to do both, so that would be bad for the horse. The horse should only be shown every so often" [unspoken: and when it does, it had better be at an FEI-sanctioned event].
    I see now. Thanks!

    ETA after reading the "clarification" it seems more like concern that the other competitions won't follow FEI rules, thus endangering the horse's welfare, nothing said about concern that horses will be overused at competitions.

    This whole thing is bizarre. I wish they'd just explain what they are so worried about.
    Last edited by skydy; Nov. 21, 2012 at 06:58 PM.



  2. #222
    Join Date
    Feb. 17, 2000
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    3,497

    Default

    Although here in the states a monopoly is not illegal, the manner in which it develops is. To the best of my knowledge if the entity uses a general idea (horse shows) and essentially squeezes out competition it is illegal. Is this not grounds for a class action law suit?
    I am not a lawyer, I am just posing the question.
    Has any other entity been talking about this? Other Horse Show entities?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  3. #223
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2008
    Location
    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    JRG,
    My thoughts exactly! I see no way this could be enacted without lawsuits from all directions, especially from non-FEI event organizers. Seems patently wrong to me...
    Ann


    Quote Originally Posted by JRG View Post
    Although here in the states a monopoly is not illegal, the manner in which it develops is. To the best of my knowledge if the entity uses a general idea (horse shows) and essentially squeezes out competition it is illegal. Is this not grounds for a class action law suit?
    I am not a lawyer, I am just posing the question.
    Has any other entity been talking about this? Other Horse Show entities?



  4. #224
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2009
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    That said, it scares the crap out of me that some people are okay with this egregious overstep of power. FEI pushed and seems to have gotten away with this power grab. If this is not overturned, what is the next step? Will there be regulations on who riders can train with? Where they can live? What kind of horses they can compete? All in the name of the welfare of the horses & riders I'm sure...
    JWB, to be clear on my last post, I am appalled at this rule. I also am surprized there has been little to no noise coming from people who are most effected. That either reflects compliance or resignation, both sad. Yes, I would like to here/read some position from any NF like BE or USEF. It would great if USEA, USDF or AQHA, even if they have little power, would stand up for its members and say something. Wait for a suit? Wont hold my breath.

    The last rule posted was pretty clear. Officials are not mentioned like they had been in the first statement.

    It is BS this is about welfare of the horse. Unless I keep special horses for non-sanctioned type events, at some point I will have a horse competing under FEI rules. It does me no good to dope up one month to be caught the next.

    For the hell of it, lets say I got the money to do just that, run a horse that will never run in an FEI event/show. How does that effect me as a rider? I ride in a World Class non-FEI show one month on Mister Buttons then the next month ride at Rolex with Can't Catch Me. The FEI says no, because they were worried about *my* safety?

    Consider how big this is...we're chatting about eventing, but...
    Driving,
    Endurance
    Dressage
    Reining
    Vaulting
    Show Jumping
    (did I miss one)

    Each and everyone of those disciplines are effected. Each and every professional and horse owner is effected. Consider that DOC as coach of the USET is effected. Now, he has to be concerned where is "team" rides, where potential horses are run, and as others stated...

    "the paper work was lost Mr. O'Connor, that show was never sanctioned by the NF that we can tell. Sorry you can't use that rider at WEG".



    1 members found this post helpful.

  5. #225
    Join Date
    Apr. 15, 2003
    Location
    Northeast MA
    Posts
    4,048

    Default

    Happy Thanksgiving to all who are crazy enough (like me) to be on this thread today.

    I've been scanning the other forums on occasion, and other than the driving forum, none of them are lit up with a discussion like this. Even the drivers had only a short go at it. I can't understand why, but I'm glad we eventers take the issue seriously and debate it thoroughly.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #226
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2009
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    700

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Happy Thanksgiving to all who are crazy enough (like me) to be on this thread today.
    I second that thought. Happy Thanksgiving!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #227
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2002
    Location
    Looking up
    Posts
    6,192

    Default

    Me too. I'm already exhausted and it isn't even lunchtime yet. I am going back outside to finish riding and barn work. If the house isn't clean, tough. Someone else can worry about it. I'll do a speed clean half an hour before the tornado hits. (Family coming for dinner.)

    Prayer for Thanksgiving:

    let the turkey be edible. (if it's actually done, that's a plus.)

    let the Jack Russells not bite anybody.

    let the spill be non-staining. (because there WILL be one. just asking that it not leave a big red mark on my floor...)

    let the stalls be normal and not messier than usual, because they are in early, because I have to hurry back inside and speed clean the house.

    let the dirty dishes magically wash themselves...(well, I know that one won't work, but I had to ask anyway.)

    let the turkey coma begin quickly and last just long enough to allow us to watch something other than the damn game on TV...(uh oh, Delta just turned over in her grave)

    let no major appliance choose this day to die a horrible death. (this is sort of a family tradition. We have experienced the tragic demise of well pumps, stoves, heat pumps, hot water heaters, and septic tank backups and microwave fires on this special day. So far.)
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com


    2 members found this post helpful.

  8. #228
    Join Date
    Feb. 6, 2003
    Location
    Deep South
    Posts
    14,727

    Default

    I think you'd have to be a ULR, go to an unsanctioned event, wait for the FEI to penalise you, and then sue the living snot out of them, to get anything changed. On the other hand, what would they do if all ULRs ignored them ?
    ... _. ._ .._. .._



  9. #229
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2003
    Location
    Happily in Canada
    Posts
    4,857

    Default Official response from Equine Canada

    Here is the response I received from Mike Gallagher, President of Equine Canada:

    Thanks for your message to Mike Arbour which he has asked me to respond to.

    I agree with you completely that rules should not be "clarified" when they are incorrect, they need to be rewritten. We do not have any problem with the intent and the objective of this rule but it does need to be written clearly using the words in Mrs. Lazarus' clarification statement. The way the rule is currently written is completely inaccurate and we will push the FEI to rewrite it properly.

    This rule is simply to stop competitions that should be FEI or NF competitions that are running unsanctioned and competition against the existing system and using the resources of the existing system without contributing to the cost. There are many valid exceptions and you mention some of them in your message, but remember the only competitions that will fall in this category are shows that the NF has reported to the FEI as violating the system. The FEI has no way to monitor non sanctioned shows in Canada nor do they have the authority to do so.

    This rule also only applies to International competitions which have more than 15 international competitors from at least 4 different countries.

    I do not have any concerns about the rule however it must be rewritten and the most important part is that it only applies to competitions that have been reported by the NF - that way we are totally protected from any misapplication.

    Thank you for your comments.

    Thanks

    Mike Gallagher
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  10. #230
    Join Date
    Apr. 15, 2003
    Location
    Northeast MA
    Posts
    4,048

    Default

    Blugal, thank you for posting Mike Gallagher's response.

    I have two thoughts.

    1. RATS! No FEI spies lurking in the bushes. I was SO looking forward to that. Actually, I was going to apply to be one. I could use a good trenchcoat, spiify hat and Raybans.

    2. What criteria will the NF use for reporting competitions? Will they be made public in advance? Will there be an appeals process?

    Off to sleep off waaaay too much food while DH watches football.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #231
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2008
    Location
    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Blugal, thank you for posting Mike Gallagher's response.

    I have two thoughts.

    1. RATS! No FEI spies lurking in the bushes. I was SO looking forward to that. Actually, I was going to apply to be one. I could use a good trenchcoat, spiify hat and Raybans.

    2. What criteria will the NF use for reporting competitions? Will they be made public in advance? Will there be an appeals process?

    Off to sleep off waaaay too much food while DH watches football.
    Whew! I for one am relieved that the original suspicions on this forum were largely unfounded. It sounds like the rule will apply to very few events, and only international events drawing at least 15 international competitors from at least 4 countries. So this explains why we did not see similar threads on the driving/dressage etc. forums. I knew something had to be up with this. Thanks Blugal for getting the real scoop.

    Ann



  12. #232
    Join Date
    Feb. 22, 2000
    Location
    passepartout
    Posts
    10,074

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Blugal View Post
    Here is the response I received from Mike Gallagher, President of Equine Canada:

    I do not have any concerns about the rule however it must be rewritten
    Are you sure this is from Equine Canada and not The Onion?


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #233
    Join Date
    Jul. 21, 2011
    Location
    Co
    Posts
    4,375

    Default

    Equine Canada? The Onion? Their communication styles are often quite similar.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  14. #234
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2009
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    700

    Default

    Orwell would have been proud of that letter. "I am not concerned...", "it needs to be rewritten"...

    Well, I can let sleeping dogs lie. This will come to bite people one day, but till then it is time to get back to the business of training for next year.

    I'll end with this thought, governing bodies should only be in the business of establishing and enforcing rules that effect the operation and safety of equine sports. USEA/F, FEI should not be involved in promotion of or profiting from shows/events. To say a show or series is operating outside safe parameters is one thing. To present information that allows owners/riders the opportunity to decide to compete is a valid extension of their charter. To lock out riders/owners for making their own decisions...wrong.

    There is no way to dress up this turd from the FEI, it just stinks.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #235
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2003
    Location
    Happily in Canada
    Posts
    4,857

    Default

    What I didn't like was that the reply was framed as "Equine Canada is protected from the FEI"... but did not address my concern of "are competitors protected from Equine Canada and/or another NF that complains?"
    Blugal

    You never know what kind of obsessive compulsive crazy person you are until another person imitates your behaviour at a three-day. --Gry2Yng



  16. #236
    Join Date
    Jun. 16, 2009
    Location
    Gray Court, SC
    Posts
    700

    Default Who Tells Their Story

    This rule is simply to stop competitions that should be FEI or NF competitions that are running unsanctioned and competition against the existing system and using the resources of the existing system without contributing to the cost. There are many valid exceptions and you mention some of them in your message, but remember the only competitions that will fall in this category are shows that the NF has reported to the FEI as violating the system.
    I am amazed at the amount of arrogance in those words. Should? Reported? Violating?

    The story is not now so much with the FEI or the governing members of a NF. They made the bed and seem quite comfortable lying in its semened sheets. The story is with those affected. Organizers locked out from inviting BN people to shows, BN riders locked out from profitable competitions, and on the fringe, LL shows that run non-recognized and can be "reported" as "violating" the "rules" and either comply...or...

    That is the story to be told.
    Last edited by JP60; Nov. 24, 2012 at 08:48 AM. Reason: grammar



  17. #237
    Join Date
    Apr. 15, 2003
    Location
    Northeast MA
    Posts
    4,048

    Default

    Having recovered from my post-turkey lethargy in the main, I'm still bummed that I can't be an FEI spy.

    And maybe I'm suffering from post-lethargy, but ahbaumgardner, I'm still just as worried as I was. The FEI has taken upon itself to to expand its mandate to every international competition for the horse sports it covers. They define international by the riders participating, NOT the horses despite their claim that this is for the safety of the latter. (IOW, a rider can't ride a different horse in their string or a catch ride.) Then they throw the whole thing over their collective shoulders and tell the NFs that they have to report problems.

    What is the likelihood that all of the NFs will create identical criteria and apply them consistently?
    Will the criteria be published?
    And will there be an appeals process for organizers and competitors (since it seems officials may have left the room)?

    And just for grins and giggles, what does "they [unsanctioned events] use the resources [of the FEI] without paying for them" mean?
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  18. #238
    Join Date
    Oct. 2, 1999
    Location
    Mendocino County, CA: Turkey Vulture HQ
    Posts
    14,462

    Default

    Given how many of their riders are stationed in other countries, Equine Canada might want to consider the earlier point on this thread about other NFs reporting "noncompliant" competitions.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  19. #239
    Join Date
    Jan. 6, 2008
    Location
    Area II, the Blue Ridge Mountains
    Posts
    2,012

    Default

    DIRECT QUOTE FROM USEVENTING.COM

    http://useventing.com/news/clarifica...ned-event-rule

    "
    Posted
    Wed, 2012-11-21 10:37
    Authored By: FEI Press Release
    .




    The FEI has received various inquiries about the rationale for, and the effect of, the new Unsanctioned Event rule in Articles 113 and 156 of the FEI General Regulations. For the rationale, please see the attached Appendix which was provided to National Federations along with the proposed rule change back in July 2012 (please note that the attached Appendix contains a revised definition, taking into account National Federations comments received during the consultation period and ultimately approved by the General Assembly) It explains the need and reason for the rule in detail.

    With respect to the scope of the rule, the rule only applies to events and/or competitions that are not in the FEI calendar (i.e. international events not approved by the FEI) and national events that are not authorised by the National Federation. This means that the FEI will rely on the NFs to bring any national or local events that it has concerns about to the FEI’s attention. The FEI will not on its own initiative look for or police national events to determine whether or not they are authorised. Therefore, local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the NF does not expressly object to them.

    If an Athlete, Official, or Horse does participate in a competition and/or event that is not on the FEI calendar or in a national event and/or competition that is expressly unauthorised by their NF, they or it cannot participate in any International or National Event for a period of six (6) months thereafter.

    Below is the full statement by the FEI following its Bureau meeting in Istanbul last week. USEA members please pay particular note to Article 5.3.

    Rationale for Unsanctioned Event Rule
    APPENDIX I - Rationale for new Articles 113.4 and 156.9 of the GRs
    New Articles 113.4 and 156.9 of the GRs make an Athlete, Horse or Official ineligible to participate in an International Event or National Event if he/she/it has participated in an unsanctioned event in the previous six months. For these purposes, an ‘unsanctioned event’ is an event and/or a competition that is neither published in the official Calendar nor authorised by a National Federation.
    The rationale for this new rule is as follows:
    1. The primary mission of the FEI, as the world governing body of equestrian sport, is ‘to advance the orderly growth of equestrian sport worldwide by promoting, administering and regulating humane and sportsmanlike international competition in the traditional equestrian disciplines’.
    2. At the core of that mission are the following two fundamental principles:
    2.1 In each equestrian discipline, the welfare of the horse must be the paramount consideration at all times. It must never, in any circumstances, be subordinated to competitive or commercial considerations.
    2.2 Equestrian sport depends, for its credibility, on public acceptance derived from the integrity of its competitions. Behind this precept lies the premise that the best competitors should win fairly and squarely, having competed under even and equitable conditions and under rules that are themselves fair, realistic, and applied with scrupulous competence and even-handedness. No result can be meaningful or valid if it has not been achieved on a level playing-field.
    3. The FEI can only protect and promote those two principles by putting in place detailed regulations protecting horse welfare (such as the FEI Code of Conduct for the Welfare of the Horse, the FEI Veterinary Regulations, and the FEI Equine Controlled Medication Rules) and the integrity of competition (such as the FEI Anti-Doping Rules For Human Athletes and the FEI Equine Anti-Doping and Control Medications Regulations) and by making acceptance of International Events onto the official Calendar conditional upon the OC adopting all of those regulations and making them binding on all participants in those events. Only by these means can the FEI ensure the uniform application of the necessary regulations in all International Events, and hold all event organisers and participants accountable under those regulations for conducting themselves in a manner that protects the safety and integrity of the sport.
    4. In recent years, equestrian sport has seen an increase in the number of events being promoted by private entrepreneurs who avoid regulation by and accountability to the FEI by organising their events outside of the official Calendar. Such unsanctioned events threaten to undermine the FEI’s ability to achieve its mission in the following ways:
    4.1 The FEI uses its control over the official Calendar to ensure that undue demands are not placed on Horses or Athletes participating in International Events. Unsanctioned events circumvent (and so emasculate) those protections.
    4.2 Unsanctioned events are not subject to FEI regulations, and their organisers and participants are not accountable to the FEI for compliance with such regulations. As a result, the FEI has no way of safeguarding the welfare of Horses and Athletes participating in such events, or of protecting the integrity
    2
    of the events. The same may be true at the national level if a national event is conducted outside national rules and notwithstanding the express objection of the National Federation.
    4.3 This presents a risk of great harm to the sport both directly (through physical harm to Horses and Athletes participating in unsanctioned events) and indirectly (by undermining public confidence in the ability of the FEI to protect the safety and integrity of the sport). The public is unlikely to appreciate fully the distinction between sanctioned and unsanctioned events, and so if problems occur in unsanctioned events the image of the entire sport will suffer, and public confidence in the ability of the FEI to maintain the integrity of the sport and to protect the welfare of its participants will be undermined, to the great detriment of the sport as a whole.
    5. The FEI recognises the need to be proportionate in its regulation of the sport, and in particular to intervene no further than is necessary to protect the sporting imperatives identified above. Therefore:
    5.1 The new regulation does not prevent Athletes or Officials participating in unsanctioned events, or Owners entering their Horses in unsanctioned events, if they so choose. Instead, reflecting the principle that those who benefit from the collective efforts of the FEI and its stakeholders should not at the same time participate in activities that undermine those efforts, it prevents simultaneous participation in both sanctioned and unsanctioned events, by making any Athlete, Horse or Official that participates in an unsanctioned event ineligible to participate for a specified period in sanctioned events.
    5.2 It limits the period of ineligibility to six months, in the hope that this will be sufficient to protect against the risks identified above. It also allows for a waiver of that period of ineligibility in exceptional circumstances. If this limited period of ineligibility proves to be insufficient, it will be reviewed and (if necessary) lengthened.
    5.3 It is not triggered by participation in unsanctioned events that the National Federations authorise or have no express objection to, such as local events run outside the NF structure but with the knowledge and acceptance of the NF. Again, however, if this is abused, it may be necessary to revisit and tighten the regulation.
    Last edited by Winding Down; Nov. 23, 2012 at 07:54 PM. Reason: ADDITIONAL INFORMATION



  20. #240
    Join Date
    Mar. 17, 2009
    Location
    The Mitten
    Posts
    1,187

    Default

    I don't see how any of this "clarification" makes any of it better. So, FEI won't have spies, but the NF's can use this as "leverage" to spank any unrecognized competition that runs afoul of them? How does any of that have anything to do with the supposed "competing" international events this rule is supposed to address?

    You know what they say about what to do when one finds oneself in a hole...



Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Sep. 17, 2012, 11:03 AM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: Apr. 2, 2012, 10:20 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Mar. 6, 2012, 11:16 AM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jul. 20, 2010, 08:41 AM
  5. Replies: 16
    Last Post: May. 14, 2009, 06:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness