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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP60 View Post
    Oh? What was their intent? If we know their intent, why would they have not just put it in the wording in the first place.


    Presumably? That is a lot to hope for. What impetus do they have at this point? How do they change this rule and really, who's going to make them? This was a rule approved and entered by the FEI GA. To change it now would require something similar, unless one can make changes by singular decree.

    Curiuoser and Curiuoser....
    See the post from Molly.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmwines01 View Post
    Not an eventer but that rule seems absurd for any discipline. Terrible for trying to bring young horses up the levels or pros riding owner's green/young horses.
    It is not an eventing specific rule. It is in the General Regulations, which apply to ALL FEI disciplines, including Jumping and Dressage, as well as reining and vaulting and driving. Possibly even "para".
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    See the post from Molly.
    Janet. not trying to be a pain here, but I find this important enough to keep it a little in the forefront.

    I did read (and re-read) Molly's last response. I am grateful that she had taken the time to try and follow up, but her reporting of FEI/USEF responses do nothing to really assure the general equestrian public. You, as one versed in knowing and understanding rules, would accept that you don't clarify a rule, you change it. The speed limit is 55...how do you clarify that? It is either changed or rescinded by the same people who put it in place the first time.

    1 - They (FEI) has not stated any clear reasoning to this rule. On the fringe we get something about horses, but this rule is also about people and what they can/cannot do.

    2 - The USEF can't change this rule so what can they say that makes it different. They could change their own rules and put everyone under a authorized standing (nullifying FEI's control in the US), allowing "schooling" some latitude (doubt that would work). If I were head of the USEF, that's what I'd do and toss a three finger salute to the FEI for fun.

    3 - I find it hard to accept that either the FEI or USEF thought such a broad rule, effecting many many people would just slide in under the radar. Right now, today I'd love to see something from USEF that says more then "fuggitaboutit, we's got it covered". I'd like to see their basic stance. They either agree or not. There are many shades of gray in either position. Sadly they seem to be going for the "ignore it and maybe they will go away" approach. When you have peasants at the castle with torches and pitchforks, you don't ignore them.

    Now..hmmmm...are they getting upset that a show like the UK Express Eventing is taking off? That Lucinda, Todd, William are giving it some star draw? I looked at the website and did not see any "FEI Approved" logos so no FEI control (and promotion, re $$$). So, if the intent is to punish Lucinda, Todd, and William for riding in a show like that, oh, and the judges that scored dressage, and the TDs that may have overseen the jump set ups...perhaps someone should tell them they are owned by the FEI and better start playing nice before they do get punished.

    I don't know a lot about horses and riding (caring for fat pony case in point), but I've been around enough to see and smell something fishy being perpetrated by people in power; this smells. Right now, today, any person in standing with the FEI is owned by them. Any person who wants to ride in FEI events (can we say WEG/Olympics) will be now owned by them.

    Tell me I have to wear a pink tutu to compete; that's my choice, tell me I can't compete at a friends successful non-sanctioned event without suffering consequences....that is not choice, that's ownership.
    Last edited by JP60; Nov. 19, 2012 at 11:40 AM. Reason: clarifying


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  4. #184
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  5. #185
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    “Local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the National Federation does not expressly object to them. The FEI will rely on the National Federations to bring any national or local events that they have concerns about to the FEI’s attention.”

    Why doesn't this give me the warm fuzzies?
    Will a rider know whether a national organization will have a problem with their particular "local" show till after the fact?
    The rebel in the grey shirt


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  6. #186
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    And I guess this is enough to make USEF shut up, I mean, giving them a lot of power, or so they assume...



  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    “Local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the National Federation does not expressly object to them. The FEI will rely on the National Federations to bring any national or local events that they have concerns about to the FEI’s attention.”

    Why doesn't this give me the warm fuzzies?
    Will a rider know whether a national organization will have a problem with their particular "local" show till after the fact?
    because that's just more babble/doublespeak. No sort of clarification at all. The FEI is basically just defining a problem event as what they or their NF surrogates say it-the implication being that if you have any stature whatsoever, you should only do recognized events to be sure.

    Can we also talk about how hypocritical the 6 month suspension is if it's all about horse welfare. You don't get a 6 month suspension for direct horse welfare violations and there are 1000 ways of getting around them, but you get a 6 month suspension for showing in a show that is unregulated on the off chance that there's a horse welfare concern. Let's call it like it is.

    Your "local" show is fine until the monopolists decide it's competition and then you're toast.


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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRider View Post
    Can we also talk about how hypocritical the 6 month suspension is if it's all about horse welfare. You don't get a 6 month suspension for direct horse welfare violations and there are 1000 ways of getting around them, but you get a 6 month suspension for showing in a show that is unregulated on the off chance that there's a horse welfare concern. Let's call it like it is.

    Your "local" show is fine until the monopolists decide it's competition and then you're toast.



  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    “Local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the National Federation does not expressly object to them. The FEI will rely on the National Federations to bring any national or local events that they have concerns about to the FEI’s attention.”

    Why doesn't this give me the warm fuzzies?
    Will a rider know whether a national organization will have a problem with their particular "local" show till after the fact?
    Agreed. This isn't a clarification at all. It's a "Well, we reserve the right to come after any show we want, but we're probably not going to bother with a schooling show. Probably."

    I listed these concrete examples of high profile unrecognized competitions earlier:
    AQHA Worlds
    Foxfield Jumping Derby

    In Southern California, there's been an Event Derby series running. The jumping phases are combined and thus there are not applicable USEF rules.

    The "clarification" is "we meant the rule as we wrote it, but face it, we're lazy."
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  10. #190
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  11. #191
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    Local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the National Federation does not expressly object to them. The FEI will rely on the National Federations to bring any national or local events that they have concerns about to the FEI’s attention.”


    Unsanctioned events are not subject to FEI regulations, and their organisers and participants are not accountable to the FEI for compliance with these regulations. As a result, the FEI has no way of safeguarding the welfare of horses and athletes participating in such events, or of protecting the integrity of the events.


    Yep, cleared this up real good. So, as long as folks at USEF are okay with an unrecognized show (schooling show) no problemo, but were said show to get a little uppity, like drawing folks away from, idunno, recognized events then the USEF can step in and say "bad organizer, we're reporting yuz to the FEI and yuz now lose all our...I means doz riders...capish?".

    The FEI is so benevolent, so caring that it also says "we know better how to take care of you and your horse. All those nasty shows waiting to do harm...Trust us...or else". Its reads like a TSA statement (just as wormy) and we all nod and say "yes thank you, I feel safer now".

    I am not normally good at predictions, but here's a thought, within two years price tags for schooling (non-sanctioned) shows will rise quickly. Schooling shows, not wanting to be labeled "unsafe" by a NF will have to ensure they are running a show safely (what ever that means) and that will cost. A slight striation will occur and those wanting to be "Safe" with the FEI will move away from schooling shows and folks wanting to complete affordably will look to small, unrecognized local shows.

    The USEF is now in the position of playing Cop for the FEI. People can be ugly so how hard is it to imagine someone reporting that X show is unsafe and needs to be "reviewed". The FEI didn't really change a thing, they just put the NF right in front of the torch carry crowd. "Hey, not our problem, your own NF pulled the plug".

    Were I an FEI ranked rider I would be upset more from this new statement then the original. FEI is saying I don't have the ability to know if something is "unsafe" or not. I cannot determine if a show will effect the welfare of my horse (notice nothing about officials any more). Lets just say there is some "Eventing World Express Show" with some boku bucks on the line. Jumps built to standard (check), course looks tough, but honest (check), medical people on staff (check) quality judges (check), not FEI sanctioned...OH MY GOD its an unsafe show, run away. The FEI just called y'all children, hope that tastes good.

    Curious how this plays. It is not just a bad rule, it is an ugly rule. The FEI just made the biggest power grab in the equine sporting world. They own two of the most prestigious events (Olympics and WEG), they now own most of theother major events, thus they now own any rider/driver that wants to play there. They don't give a damn about KOC or Boyd, or Mary going to a schooling show. They do not want them going to another organizer, a BIG show that will draw away from their ability to make money. This was not about schooling shows or hunter/jumper ammy shows, that was smoke screen for the real play, locking out any other promoter/organizer from gaining prominence (aka dollars) in the sport.

    I have no power (but my voice) to change it, but I would hope to a Higher Power that someone would and will.


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  12. #192
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    “What the intent of that is to prevent someone starting a series in which they make their own rules and in a sense force riders to do things within that series that are contrary to FEI rules. (because FEI rules are the only safe ones out there)

    “If you have an FEI-sanctioned series, that means that the people running the series are working together with the FEI and are abiding by the rules and regulations, such as horse welfare and medication control, that are important. (and paying us money) If you had a renegade series that was trying to impose things upon riders that were contrary to the good sporting conduct that the FEI supports, that would be a problem.” (and would not last long as riders/owners stay away, because they are smart enough to not get "forced" into doing something effecting the welfare of the rider or horse)
    Wow, these guys have really gotten full of themselves. What a mess.

    Try it this way "There is only one true God, all other gods are false; you will burn in sin if you cast your eyes away. The only path to enlightenment is through our commandments".

    Think I'll remain a heretic and sinner.


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  13. #193
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    So... reading the Chronicle article... USEF could decide at any convenient time in the future that it objects to AQHA Worlds being unsanctioned, and thus any rider, horse, or official who participates there (they offer reining, dressage, and jumping IIRC) could be blocked from FEI competition for 6 months.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket


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  14. #194
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    Oh look, more good news from the fine folks who brought us the short format!

    Seriously, this is an overreach. It's not about 'date clashes' or 'to manage athlete horse power properly to protect the welfare of the horse'.

    It's about money.

    The USEF is fine with it presumably because they can reserve the right to pull the same BS with sponsors' money that goes to pockets other than their own.


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  15. #195
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    Just think of the hijinks which will ensue:

    Local events do not come within the scope of this rule so long as the National Federation does not expressly object to them. The FEI will rely on the National Federations to bring any national or local events that they have concerns about to the FEI’s attention.
    Do you all realize how much fun is in store for the run-ups to WEG/Olympic qualifying?

    It's the National Federation, presumably of the location of the 'unsanctioned' competition, that can call the shots on sanctioning/non-sanctioning and thus alert the FEI of transgressions. But it's the riders who suffer the consequences and earn the suspension. Those riders can be from nations other than the NGB that alerted the FEI.

    Don't want that Dutch guy competing against you at the Olympics? No problem, he's coming to FL for a charity event.


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  16. #196
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    I'm not only concerned by the fact this leaves openings to control sponsors and shut down shows seen as competition...

    But this sets an ugly precedent to me about what we are and aren't allowed to do with our horses if not at a competition. No FEI rider can ride in shows sponsored by unapproved folks, but what about monitoring schooling sessions, what kind of stabling you can have, who you can ride with? FEI must approve clinics to make sure horses are treated kindly?

    It's a big jump, but the FEI claiming horse welfare is their concern and trying to limit competitions with that as the stated reason... can soon apply that reason however and to whatever situation they wish.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post


    It's a big jump, but the FEI claiming horse welfare is their concern and trying to limit competitions with that as the stated reason... can soon apply that reason however and to whatever situation they wish.
    Ding-dong....

    "Who is it?"

    "FEI carrot inspector. I'll have to ask you to open that bag, ma'am."

    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by netg View Post
    ...
    It's a big jump, but the FEI claiming horse welfare is their concern and trying to limit competitions with that as the stated reason... can soon apply that reason however and to whatever situation they wish.
    Same dumbass excuse (and subsequently scientifically disproved) used for enforcing the short format.


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  19. #199
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    I was willing to give the FEI the benefit of the doubt, given the lack of transparency during the rule's formulation and passage, but after the "explanation" I'm not. It's a power grab, pure and simple; and IMO is evil.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  20. #200
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    I had already added the FEI to the Axis of Evil after the helmet cam nonsense; claiming they own the videographic rights to a competition is a level of oppression that is unacceptable.

    This whole thing gives me a very nasty taste in my mouth.
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
    http://buildingthegrove.blogspot.com/



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