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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDE Driver View Post
    It sounds like folks are okay with the FEI having a monopoly on competitions. Am I reading that right?
    I don't really understand the situation internationally. If it's about big competitions with no drug enforcement, then I would be okay with some measure explicitly addressing that. I don't understand how it would or could be that the FEI world cups can't get prize money but apparently this parallel circuit is awash in it. I'm not okay with the FEI saying you can't ever compete in nonsanctioned events given my current understanding.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    The FEI is VERY serious about their Clean Sport program, and these show series have the potential to make a mockery of what they are trying to do.
    The same could be said -- making a mockery of FEI Clean Sport -- of the USEF and its doping policies. Two names come to mind: (1) Elizabeth Mandarino, (2) Mario DesLauriers.



  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    The FEI has legitimate concerns. The Global Champions Show Jumping Tour draws the top riders on their top horses. It competes with FEI Sanctioned shows and generally offers huge purses with a bonus at the end. It has managed to create shows in places that the FEI has been spending money for years to get competitions going. The "lesser" FEI shows have to do something to draw top riders on top horses.
    .
    Okay, I'm new to all this, but I read, I listen and from what I've come to understand, organizations like the FEI are presented as a means to help in the "welfare of the horse", provide structure to sports so they are run safely, and to promote equine sports. I did not believe they were created to generate profit or worry about competing shows that would draw players away.

    ---- Let's imagine ----
    Let's imagine that one day, Eventers in the US of A woke up to find the the USEF had voted on a rule. The rule is quite simple, "No member of USEA or USEF may perform in shows that are not sanctioned by USEF.". The hew and cry would be enormous. Even this lowly just minted BN, but USEA member could not go to a schooling show sponsored by Jumping Branch or FENCE or Stoneridge. Sure, I forfeit my membership, but then I can't perform in championships.

    Oh, the reasons would be things like "Well we can't guarantee the safety of horses or we can't assure the safety of riders", but what the real issue is, people don't want to spend double the cost. Schooling shows become bad business for USEF and they want them out.

    Were the USEF truly concerned about welfare and safety they would do something that would address the heart of the issue, allowing the coexistence of two worlds.
    --- End imagine ----

    Now, to speculate that FEI is concerned about doping of horses at shows not under their control is hard to believe. Unless a rider has a special horse just for non-sanctioned shows then at some point that horse will be under FEI rules and subject to testing. What rider would take the chance?

    Were this about horses then the rule would have applied just to horses. It did not. It stated horses, rider, and officials. I agree with the other poster that attempts to rationalize do more harm. The FEI was very clear at first, the more they spoke, the more confusing it became. That sounds like a bull....er to me. This was a group of people that felt they could take a power grab on the world of equine sports. For my part I hope they fail and that is because riders, officials and concerned supporters stand up and say No.


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  4. #164
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    If it adds to this discussion...the USEA officials I have spoken with are DEEPLY concerned with, and wish the best for, unrecognized events. They know they are important to the sport. They have been looking for unfunded ways to encourage the adoption of rules like the USEA's that provide safer competitions (like having ambulances on site, better and safer jumps and courses, etc.) and knowledgeable officials and organizers so that one's first taste of the sport doesn't end in a disaster. The problem is always not enough funds to develop encouragement programs.

    In racing, big money is always in sanctioned events so that the spectacle is clean, i.e., within a jurisdiction that tests. How can a multimillionaire/business supporting an unrecognized event/competiton that does not test have any sort of legitimate bragging rights if the horses that win are not tested clean?
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
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  5. #165
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    It's definitely a very poorly thought out response to the competition to sanctioned shows. What the FEI is saying is that you can either play in their sandbox or ours. You choose.

    I also agree that the USEF drug policies are ridiculous. But they make the h/j people happy. Don't know about the breeds and other disciplines.

    Have y'all noticed that drug violations (FEI and other) are almost, if not entirely, unknown in the eventing world? At least for those whose history is in eventing.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Have y'all noticed that drug violations (FEI and other) are almost, if not entirely, unknown in the eventing world? At least for those whose history is in eventing.
    touché
    The big man -- no longer an only child

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  7. #167
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    I think it's proportional according to the stats on positives. 5000 jumpers....50 eventers....
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  8. #168
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    I haven't thoroughly read all the posts, but does this mean if I enter any FEI competition, even at the 1 star level, I can't enter any other competitions? For us adult amateurs who may be considering whether or not we want to compete in FEI 1 stars versus just doing Prelim HTs, this seems like it seals the deal. For those of us on the West Coast, where there are relatively few FEI competitions in eventing, it seems like it would kill those divisions. Am I missing something?


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  9. #169
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    Yes, Vali, this rule is meant to apply to international competition and not local unrecognized HTs, schooling shows, etc. The rule was poorly written; we are waiting for official clarification.
    Delaware Park Canter Volunteer
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  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcmel View Post
    Yes, Vali, this rule is meant to apply to international competition and not local unrecognized HTs, schooling shows, etc. The rule was poorly written; we are waiting for official clarification.
    kcmel, I hate to sound like the broken record, but this rule was neither poorly written, nor well written. It was written and voted upon (or agreed too) by a governing body that took time to deliberate and choose the wording as put down.

    You do not "Clarify" a rule, you alter it, amend it, or stricken it, but clarification is not an official act. Who wants to test this out? Which BNR or BNO, which AA like Vail wants to compete at a large schooling show, a large non-sanctioned event in 2012 and when they are suspended, attempt to challenge the rule.

    The FEI was clear about what was considered a sanctioned event, that which was on their date calendar and/or authorised by a NF (like USEF). Everything else fails so....the only way to clarify this is to alter the rule its self. Has there been any sign that is happening? Have we heard from USEF other then "we're looking into it"?

    My prediction, FEI will delay, obfuscate, and do nothing, waiting for the "tempest" to go down. USEF has no real bone to pick with this rule so they will also "make noise" but do nothing. Soon this will pass to be replaced with mundane topics like "did you see MLM at KOC wearing that outfit" or "OMG anther show may close" or "Hey I did my first <> show?". Good people on this list will start to go "get over it, let's move on, nothing to see here any more". Then one day someone will be used as the test example by FEI to send the signal they really did mean what they wrote all along. By then it will be too little too late and we'll see another door closing on horse riding as a somewhat less expensive sport.

    I have no dog in this hunt. Any FEI Rider, any judge or official working with FEI does and if they are silent then they either don't care about anything outside FEI, or are too concerned how pushing back may be taken.

    Make me wear a helmet...fine, but tell me where I can compete? Who the hell do they think they are?


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  11. #171
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    Amen JP60! I think you are spot on across the board! The people who are currently FEI riders, officials or horse owners, or those planning on becoming one of the above NEED to keep pushing USEF to stand up and get this rule officially changed/amended/etc, not just clarified in a press release!

    The FEI is very patient and will have no problem waiting until no one is paying attention when they start enforcing this and there's no momentum to back them down. Seems to me that as we approach WEG 2014 and Rio 2016, they will have plenty of "reasons" to enforce this. I hope the USEF actually stands up for those who will be affected, but I'm skeptical...
    TPR!
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  12. #172
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    Rock on JP60, rock on
    "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing" - Robert Benchley
    Cotton would fight.
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  13. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    Have y'all noticed that drug violations (FEI and other) are almost, if not entirely, unknown in the eventing world? At least for those whose history is in eventing.
    On the contrary, I have seen more Eventing related drug violations (including some big name riders, and some serious drugs, such as fluphenazine (sp?)) than I would like.

    I agree there are not as many in Eventing as there are in H/J, and some other disciplines, but there is a mich bigger population of H/J riders.

    I wonder what the proportional rate is?
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  14. #174
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    Even as written, you would be free to enter all USEF/USEA (NF) events.

    As written, there would be a restriction on UNRECOGNIZED events.

    But that isn't what they intended, and they will (presumably) chage the wording of the rule to make that clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by vali View Post
    I haven't thoroughly read all the posts, but does this mean if I enter any FEI competition, even at the 1 star level, I can't enter any other competitions? For us adult amateurs who may be considering whether or not we want to compete in FEI 1 stars versus just doing Prelim HTs, this seems like it seals the deal. For those of us on the West Coast, where there are relatively few FEI competitions in eventing, it seems like it would kill those divisions. Am I missing something?
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  15. #175
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    FEI equine anti-doping cases can be see here or here (with athlete suspensions included).

    In 2012, out of 17 total cases, one was for an eventer. There were no eventing cases in 2011, and one in 2010.

    The vast majority of cases are in endurance and jumping. There's a couple of drivers, and one vaulter.

    On the current suspension list, there are 15 endurance cases, 6 jumping (although 4 are for horses and 2 are for humans), 2 in driving, 1 in vaulting and 1 in eventing. Out of these 25 cases, 13 are from the UAE. Maybe Princess Haya needs to have a talk with her husband.


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  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmwines01 View Post
    Not an eventer but that rule seems absurd for any discipline. Terrible for trying to bring young horses up the levels or pros riding owner's green/young horses.
    I just cannot imagine that such a rule will pass. The organizers of the unrecognized events will take a huge hit, along with the rest of us. I happen to be an amateur who is an UL rider and if I couldn't take my babies to schooling events, I'd end up being way behind schedule in their training and exposure. It is just too expensive to waste $$ on a recognized event when a baby is just getting the hang of things.



  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    But that isn't what they intended,
    Oh? What was their intent? If we know their intent, why would they have not just put it in the wording in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    and they will (presumably) chage the wording of the rule to make that clear.
    Presumably? That is a lot to hope for. What impetus do they have at this point? How do they change this rule and really, who's going to make them? This was a rule approved and entered by the FEI GA. To change it now would require something similar, unless one can make changes by singular decree.

    Curiuoser and Curiuoser....



  18. #178
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    It already has passed.



  19. #179
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    how did we get to drug positives from rule changes? Any USEF "clarification" yet?
    "Passion, though a bad regulator, is a powerful spring." -- Emerson
    www.eventhorse.wordpress.com



  20. #180
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    Retread, it's still before 9am on Monday morning of a holiday week.

    Nope, no clarification yet that I've seen, but I agree with JP60's analysis and comments. Despite any potential clarifications, the rule stands as it is until amended.
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
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