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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventerAJ View Post
    I think this is the case. They're after elephants, not gnats. I expect the FEI to clarify the issue soon.
    FTFY

    I would hope the FEI clarifies, officially, because any other body is either reading something not available to the common man from the FEI or is attempting to spin it. By official I mean a document (pdf) that defines "non-sanctioned" beyond what was printed.



  2. #102
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    It has been clarified by the FEI. EN has the latest.

    http://eventingnation.com/home/appar...ing-shows.html

    It does not apply to schooling shows.



  3. #103
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  4. #104
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    Gotta love EN!
    They don't call me frugal for nothing.
    Proud and achy member of the Eventing Grannies clique.



  5. #105
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    What is GR?

    "The FEI GRs have always confirmed that the FEI is the recognised International Federation for International Equestrian events for the disciplines it manages. The GRs confirm that a show with more than 15 international riders from more than 4 Nations must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned".
    Kanoe Godby
    www.dyrkgodby.com
    See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by frugalannie View Post
    Gotta love EN!
    Yep, but I'd feel better if they had provided a link to the official release. ""trust, but verify". However, what was posted makes sense. One thing the bugs me, why do people use double negatives

    The new rule does not apply to any competition that could never be considered as ‘International’.

    It would just that little bit clearer written as

    The new rule applies to any competition that could be considered as ‘International’.

    Does schooling show fall under the first or second etc etc Felt like it was the King talking in the King and I



  7. #107
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    Ok, clarified. But still not happy. While it does not affect me, it still seems the FEI is doing a monopoly/power grab.
    ************
    "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

    "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike



  8. #108
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    So if you have Nina Ligon and some Canadians at your schooling event, you'd better make sure any South/Central Americans are from the same country, and watch out that you don't accidentally let any Australians ride as well... Forget any Europeans competing who may be prepping for Rolex or something. Those schooling dressage shows the Americans rode in (or planned to until rained out) - nope, probably too many people from too many countries to call it a schooling show. Better be FEI.
    My horse is a dressage diva so I don't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by katarine
    If you have a fat gay horse that likes Parelli, you're really screwed


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  9. #109
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    GR = General Regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CDE Driver View Post
    What is GR?

    "The FEI GRs have always confirmed that the FEI is the recognised International Federation for International Equestrian events for the disciplines it manages. The GRs confirm that a show with more than 15 international riders from more than 4 Nations must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned".
    Last edited by Janet; Nov. 16, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason: Changed "rules" to "regulations" to be more correct.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


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  10. #110
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    The GRs confirm that a show with more than 15 international riders from more than 4 Nations must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned.
    Those criteria aren't difficult to meet.

    What's an 'international rider'? John Whitaker or anyone who's entered a CCI*?

    It's not hard to find four nations represented even at a schooling show if the location is either (1) very horsey a la Aiken/FL or (2) geographically convenient like most of western Europe.

    The FEI says it's not out to get schooling shows but what about charity events or charity rides? If they decide your event meets their criteria, the FEI shows up and demands in.

    IIRC, this is how the FEI took control of endurance -- riders organized rides and invited their foreign friends, only to have the FEI say 'You can't do this without us.'


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  11. #111
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    Still don't like this rule. How can something never qualify as an international show? Who decides? There's a show facility, nice, and local, non FEI and offers prize money for 3'3 hunters @ 25k, trickling down to many lower-lever 'stake' classes which offer $. Can guarantee you there are 15 riders from 4 nations.

    Some eventers take their non-UL-potential horses to these shows to sell them To school them.

    Not to mention what that implies to the H/J world as a whole, and I'm sure many other disciplines could take issue with this revision, with that I am not familiar. Surely the reiners could have an issue - as could AQHA - they offer some serious prize $, in no way FEI related! Still stinking with monopolistic tendencies, and I'm sure they are not done expanding their power...

    How about an event like Fitch's Corner? Not FEI. Think of the impact on these wonderful events, and how the concerns with the FEI could impact their entries.
    Buck Davidson
    Bruce Davidson
    Mark Weissbecker
    Ferial Johnson
    Ashley MacVaugh
    Adrienne Iorio

    Sure someone more familiar with names can elaborate on this, just took a quick peak - wasn't Boyd there the year before - a non-Olympic year, FWIW.

    GMHA 'Festivals of Eventing'?


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  12. #112
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    Just guessing here.

    I would think that, to even be considered as coming under this rule, a schooling show would have to be offering FEI heights/levels.

    So Prelim (3'7")and above for Eventing,
    PSG and above for Dressage
    Whatever height FEI jumper classes start.

    I do not think it would apply to hunters at all, as hunters are not an FEI discipline.

    Yes, there are a few unecognized HT at Prelim and above, but not many. But there are lots of schooling dressage shows with FEI classes. Probably some jumper shows too.

    I would think they also probably would have to be offering at least as much prize money as the FEI rules for that discipline. That seems to be what they care about.

    At least, if I were writing the FEI rules, that is probably what I would use.

    That would cut out most of what we consider "schooling" shows for our disciplines.

    But I think the rule is most problematic in the cases they DO intend it to apply for, the "indoor eventing", the non FEI "big deal" jumping and dressage competitions.

    I think thier lawyers need to start looking at the anti-trust, constraint of trade, rules in variuos countries.
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmorning View Post
    How about an event like Fitch's Corner?
    But isn't that USEF/USEA recognized, and hence OK
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  14. #114
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    Agreed this is unfair, unworkable and all things posters have said. But....I think there is much more to it behind the veil.

    This is a way for our NF to force all the very useful, inexpensive unrated jumper shows, HT, and every other low key FEI disciplined event to become sanctioned thus making more money for the NF.

    Yes, it would be very hard to monitor but as folks have pointed out there will be the whistle blowers.

    And there is a big demographic that this does not effect and that would be the Hunter industry. Those, at least in my area, have the largest attendance. If I were a manager I would simply delete the jumper classes rather than pay for sanctioning.

    And we haven't even talked about officials.

    Who said F....European Idiots? You got that right!!


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    It has been clarified by the FEI. EN has the latest.

    http://eventingnation.com/home/appar...ing-shows.html

    It does not apply to schooling shows.
    However, FEI needs to do more than issue a press release with an oops, they need to rewrite the language of the rule to be explicit.

    I think the intent of their new rule is stupid, btw, but for example a possible way to distinguish would be to use prize money.

    We still have the problem for reining of AQHA/ApHC/APHA recognized shows, which are not under the USEF umbrella and are very decidedly serious affairs.

    For example: http://aqha.com/Showing/World-Show/C...n/Reining.aspx
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  16. #116
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    Does anyone know what the USEF (and Canada the Western European nations and Australia and New Zealand) positions were on this?

    If the USEF voted for it, I agree with Ruby G. Weber that they were looking to force popular unrecognized shows to get recognition in those areas where resident (and visiting) non-US citizens are common in competition.

    I think a lot will depend on how resident aliens are treated in current FEI rules.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire



  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janet View Post
    But isn't that USEF/USEA recognized, and hence OK
    But it's not FEI - it's USEF/USEA - so, per FEI, "must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned".

    Very mucky, as read as a part of this:

    However, if an OC organises a full international show in one of the existing FEI disciplines with invited international riders and does so outside the NF and so is not in the FEI calendar and is not supported by the NF the rule will be applied by the FEI and the suspensions could be invoked.

    Because in one statement you have 'FEI & NF' - but, being on the calender of the FEI and the NF are two different things here in the US. Who is to decide what could come re:suspensions? Why are we even allowing this muckiness to occur. I hope the cowboys & cowgirls whoop their a$$.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post
    This is a way for our NF to force all the very useful, inexpensive unrated jumper shows, HT, and every other low key FEI disciplined event to become sanctioned thus making more money for the NF.
    What will this cost our NF, USEF/USHJA/USEA? And what costs will they then pass on to venues, officials, trainers, competitors, and members of the aforementioned organizations? I think they could be making a big mistake, financially, if they think everyone can continue, or will continue to absorb increasing fees. WHY, is the good ol' USA, do we want to relinquish power & $ to a European governing body? I do not get it; not at all.
    Last edited by goodmorning; Nov. 15, 2012 at 01:55 PM.



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodmorning View Post
    But it's not FEI - it's USEF/USEA - so, per FEI, "must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned".

    Very mucky, as read as a part of this:

    However, if an OC organises a full international show in one of the existing FEI disciplines with invited international riders and does so outside the NF and so is not in the FEI calendar and is not supported by the NF the rule will be applied by the FEI and the suspensions could be invoked.

    Because in one statement you have 'FEI & NF' - but, being on the calender of the FEI and the NF are two different things here in the US. Who is to decide what could come re:suspensions? Why are we even allowing this muckiness to occur. I hope the cowboys & cowgirls whoop their a$$.
    But
    An unsanctioned event is an event that is not
    on the FEI calendar and is not authorised by a National Federation.
    Fitches Corner is "authorised by a National Federation." so, the way I read it, is OK.

    Also, using your wording, it doesn't fit under either "outside the NF " nor " not supported by the NF ". Since the cases are joined by "and" not "or" it dosn't matter if it is on the FEI calendar pr not.

    The suspensions will apply to events that are
    "outside the NF"
    AND
    "not in the FEI calendar"
    AND
    "not supported by the NF"
    Janet

    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).



  19. #119
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    I understand how you interpreted it Janet (I did too), but why conclude the release with:

    "The GRs confirm that a show with more than 15 international riders from more than 4 Nations must be run as an FEI event and under the NF concerned."

    ?

    My thoughts, to make sure they can use the release as they fit. Something offends, sanctions, non-threatening, they'll let it fly.



  20. #120
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    I think the FEI needs to hire a REAL translator and not rely on BableFish or Google Translate when they publish documents! Then maybe we could understand what the heck they are saying!
    Kanoe Godby
    www.dyrkgodby.com
    See, I was raised by wolves and am really behind the 8-ball on diplomatic issue resolution.


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