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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    Yeah but what the hell does that mean---and I am a lawyer!!!!? You go to a local schooling show in my area (dressage or a starter event for example) and you absolutely can easily have 15 riders from 4 different nations. What do they consider an "international event"????
    I did say they had bad communication skills ... Anyway I think what that means is that the big events that try to rival the FEI come into play such as indoor eventing and probably there are some big non-FEI SJ comps that would fall into this category too.

    It likely does not mean schooling shows and unrecognised horse trials. Although, really, they are going to need to clarify this AGAIN with better wording.

    Of course in some jurisdictions that this would still fall foul of anti-trust/competition rules as the FEI would still be using their market position to exclude competitors.

    I vote the FEI needs to learn through Com Sci 101...



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Comedy View Post
    "We've been told that the disallowed 'unsanctioned events' with penalties would be full international events in an FEI discipline with at least 15 international 'riders' from more than 4 nations but not organised by the FEI..."

    So it looks like it does not affect schooling shows. Not exactly sure what it does affect....
    That isn't nearly as broad as you might think. It could possibly effect any schooling show in No.Va/MD, Ocala or Aiken SC!



  3. #63
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    So essentially they are defining a schooling show based on who shows up? How is anyone to know in advance (or even, really, there) whether they are at risk of penalty?



  4. #64
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    Totally agree bf! A lot exclusions & possibilities & inclusions to worry about when you are sending in an entry. Not to mention all the QEs.

    Honestly, let's take this time & have USEA & British Eventing (BE) & Canada come together, ditch the FEI, and let the FEI see wat they have left. Rolex, Burghley, and Badders don't need the FEI. Easy enough to adopt their drug & regulatory standards for hosting events. The big three I listed have pride, tradition, and experience in their favor.

    BTW, glad I'm not the only one noticing the anititrust/competition implications here...


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  5. #65
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    To put it simply, it sounds like FEI wants a monopoly on money making venues that may attract international riders...EG: The winter florida circuit.
    And doesn't want anyone else thinking they can plunder the riders into doing shows for bigger prizes, not just scores and placings.



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by subk View Post
    That isn't nearly as broad as you might think. It could possibly effect any schooling show in No.Va/MD, Ocala or Aiken SC!
    Probably northern California as well.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket



  7. #67
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    would this also apply to unrecognized divisions at recognized hunter/jumper/ eventing shows and events (I thought at least in hunterland there were classes run at recognized shows that are not recognized like super baby green division etc.??)



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbyVD View Post
    I did say they had bad communication skills ... Anyway I think what that means is that the big events that try to rival the FEI come into play such as indoor eventing and probably there are some big non-FEI SJ comps that would fall into this category too.

    It likely does not mean schooling shows and unrecognised horse trials. Although, really, they are going to need to clarify this AGAIN with better wording.

    Of course in some jurisdictions that this would still fall foul of anti-trust/competition rules as the FEI would still be using their market position to exclude competitors.

    I vote the FEI needs to learn through Com Sci 101...


    What this rule, I suspect, intended to address is how several Middle Eastern teams made it to the Olympics. They had literally private horse shows which allowed their riders to qualify. Kinda nice to have that kind of money.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAyers View Post
    What this rule, I suspect, intended to address is how several Middle Eastern teams made it to the Olympics. They had literally private horse shows which allowed their riders to qualify. Kinda nice to have that kind of money.
    But even that doesn't make sense. If that was your target, wouldn't you just tighten up the rule as to what shows count as qualifiers? Not try and scare riders from competing in other competitions?
    ** The difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. -- Albert Einstein **



  10. #70
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    I'm wondering if this rule is in any way intended to stave off competition to the newly created Furusiyya Nations Cup series in show jumping. It doesn't seem as if the Great Colonial Powers can butt heads en masse anymore until the final in September. Which is too bad since those Nations Cups were the next best thing to a World War II re-enactment complete with silly costumes. The USA's John Madden heads the FEI show jumping committee-- perhaps he needs to make a statement to his confused subjects to explain the new format and what is now Not Done.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    But even that doesn't make sense. If that was your target, wouldn't you just tighten up the rule as to what shows count as qualifiers? Not try and scare riders from competing in other competitions?
    Since when did anyone include logic and the FEI in the same sentence.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  12. #72
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    I think what they are proposing is called "Restraint of Trade". Restraint of trade is a common law doctrine relating to the enforceability of contractual restrictions on freedom to conduct business. I'm sure you could make a case for them falling foul of monopolies laws too. In fact you could probably get your brain really spinning with the number of laws this would contravene.
    ... _. ._ .._. .._


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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbbyVD View Post
    I did say they had bad communication skills ...
    I vote the FEI needs to learn through Com Sci 101...
    This from their official publications. And Abby, they communicate pretty well in many other publications so I do not feel they are leaving something like this open to interpretation.

    Series and events not affiliated to the FEI
    The number of series per discipline and per category will be limited in order
    to have a well structured calendar, to avoid date clashes and to manage
    Page 3 of 11
    athlete horse power properly to protect the welfare of the horse. As a related
    point, the number of competitions that count for a series will be limited in
    order to guarantee an open market and to avoid closed shops. Athletes and
    officials will no longer be permitted to participate in both sanctioned and
    unsanctioned events. If an athlete, horse or an FEI official participates in a
    non-sanctioned event, such person or horse will be prohibited from
    participating in any sanctioned events, both international and national, for a
    period of six months thereafter. An unsanctioned event is an event that is not
    on the FEI calendar and is not authorised by a National Federation.
    I really don't think that is very ambiguous. I did look through the FEI publications and did not find anything that defined or stated the "we what we really meant to say is..." type of wording. Of course I'm at work and taking too much time, but I do not feel we should be defending FEI on off hand information.

    The summary is really split into two parts, the first almost makes sense in that they are trying to limit "series" so there is more options to play. Okay, trying to stop monopolies and allow organizers the chance to play in the big ring may be a good thing for those who want to run sanctioned or recognized events.

    The second part is the one that is creating the drama and they are not ambiguous at all. For Eventers, it means schooling shows are not on the FEI calendar nor are they authorized by the national Federation (re USEF).

    I could not find the wording in any of their rules documents, but unless they clarify in any of these documents then the meaning is pretty clear. Do not expect to see an FEI Professional or registered horse at a schooling HT.

    This would/will clearly split the sport into two tiers, one which provides FEI professionals the opportunity to develop/train horses under FEI rules...at a cost, and those who mainly choose not to play and pay as much and take the chance on un-recognized events. If you want to play with the pros you'll have to become a member of something, pay higher fees, and have you and your horse tracked.

    No, there is no fog in those words and unless someone can google and post official FEI verbiage (not anecdotal commentary) to expand the definition of "non-sanctioned event", FEI is flexing its power to control the equine sport world.



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
    But even that doesn't make sense. If that was your target, wouldn't you just tighten up the rule as to what shows count as qualifiers? Not try and scare riders from competing in other competitions?
    For those unfamiliar with the qualifier shenanigans, see here.

    There is an ongoing issue -- in many sports, not just equestrian -- of oligarchal money and IOC dreams. Rich people from 'emerging' (I think that means 'corrupt') economies who want to buy their way in to all things sporting, including to the pinnacle of corruption, influence-peddling and palm-greasing, the International Olympic Committee.

    You'll have an aristocrat from Doha hosting a lavish competition in some minor sport in the hopes of the aristocrat buying his way in to the IGB. Or a non-sanctioned competition in Russia that boasts prize money that's a multiple of the nominal pittance offered by a World Cup event.

    We have an aristocrat running the FEI but, really guys, we're lucky as at least she does have a background in the sport. Make an anagram of FEI and you'll get an IGB that's headed by an actual criminal. Or investigate the history of the world's most aptly named sporting organizations, the WTF (which allegedly also stands for World Taekwondo Federation), a consortium of crooks that is forever embroiled in charges of corruption, vote-buying and match-fixing. The former head of the WTF, who used his post as a stepping stone to an IOC vice-presidency, had to resign from the IOC in order to serve a stint in prison on corruption and embezzlement charges. He'd embezzled $3.3M from the WTF and then taken another six-figures' worth of bribes at the IOC.

    Since his release from the pokey, Dr. Kim has set about collecting honours and conveniently omitting the tawdry details from his biography.

    This is international sport for you. 'Welfare' is only taken seriously when it's about enhancing their own power or lining their own pockets.


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  15. #75
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    Jun. 28, 2003
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    Default Still leaves the issue of the JUDGES who judge both FEI and non FEI

    Judges would also have to choose whether they want to work at FEI competitions or non-FEI competitions. Now I wonder which would be better for their pocketbook.

    Are there enough FEI competitions to keep the judges in work? or do they depend on unrated shows to help out.

    Would they decide it's not worth FEI or not worth helping out the smaller shows many of them now work with also (at least in driving).

    I think Canada tried this a few years ago with driving judges and it didn't go well. They had to back off on the idea



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by deltawave View Post
    This rule does not state that a trainer's clients have to also show at recognized events. They are free to go to unrecognized shows. Eventers don't have to have a trainer with them at all times.
    Seriously? My point is not about if you are capable to ride without your trainer on hand, it is the fact that a huge percentage of our riders - specifically the lower level base of the sport - don't have trailers and they don't have trucks. They also may not own a horse and might not be allowed to take the schoolie or lease horse off property without the trainer (if they can get a ride). And of course, the large percentage of riders that help fund our professionals without owning a truck/trailer/horse are the people that need the local shows the most. The trickle down affect of this rule will be monumental.

    Really hoping this rule isn't what it sounds like.



  17. #77
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    Default Alrighty then

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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by JP60 View Post

    This would/will clearly split the sport into two tiers, one which provides FEI professionals the opportunity to develop/train horses under FEI rules...at a cost, and those who mainly choose not to play and pay as much and take the chance on un-recognized events. If you want to play with the pros you'll have to become a member of something, pay higher fees, and have you and your horse tracked.
    I'm joking about the FEI! But anyway, the clarification from the FEI that the British Horse Driving Trials Association have had (see previous post) is exactly the opposite of this. Riders of any level will be able to compete at schooling shows (club=schooling if I interpret British english correctly). My point was if the FEI meant what they said to the BHDTA then that's not what is in the original document and therefore where a clarification would have been useful.

    If the BHDTA clarification is correct then the FEI are trying to stamp out are things like the Furusiyya Nations Cup that directly compete with their own events.



  19. #79
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    The driving community is making a big stink about it on FB with all my driving friends.



    This is a really stupid idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by pegasusmom View Post
    Amanda - believe it is a rule proposal. It's making waves in driving as well. Most of the Advanced CDEs are run as FEI events in this country.

    The Federation of European Idiots (thanks Flutie!) strikes again.



  20. #80
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    This makes my head hurt.

    I think just about every unrecognized show (jumpers and CTs) I rode at this year had MULTIPLE FEI riders (from YRs to 4*)competing...and not just on baby horses, but on FEI horses. So, so, so freaking ridiculous.



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