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  1. #21
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    I was under the impression that a horse can't be "homozygous black", only "homozygous for black POINTS", meaning that they will only product bays or blacks, which are "black based" colors--and not chestnuts, which are "red based"--maybe a color genetics expert will weigh in here?
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  2. #22
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    This is why terminology is so confusing between those who look at it from a genetics stand point and those who are only looking at it from a "what can he produce" standpoint.

    Homozygous black is EE. It does NOT guarantee homozygous for black points.

    A horse can be homozygous black and be Perlino, and if bred to another single or double dilute, can produce another perlino or smoky black and those don't have black points. They are only black-based

    Now, if your use "for black points" to be the same as "black-based", then that's still just as confusing from a phenotype perspective
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  3. #23
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    Ah...so when a horse is "homozygous black", it doesn't guarantee that this horse will produce a bay or a black offspring? Or that it can *also* produce a perlino or smokey black?

    (Thanks for posting, BTW, I was hoping a knowledgeable COTHer would clarify ;-))

    What about producing a chestnut, would that *only* be possible if the horse were Ee?

    What about a bay stallion--homozygous for bay (or black), how does one refer to such a stallion? I have seen (in breeding ads for these stallions) "homozygous for black points, cannot produce a chestnut"...
    "Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies."

    "It's supposed to be hard...the hard is what makes it great!" (Jimmy Dugan, "A League of Their Own")



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Doolittle View Post
    Ah...so when a horse is "homozygous black", it doesn't guarantee that this horse will produce a bay or a black offspring? Or that it can *also* produce a perlino or smokey black?
    Well, if the EE horse is not also at least a single dilute (buckskin, smoky brown, smoky black) then it can't produce a perlino.

    If the horse is EE, then unless the Agouti status is AA (Homozygous bay, if you will), then there's no guarantee that horse will produce a bay. If he's Aa, he's got a 50/50 shot of making bay (or a bay base, other horse could make it buckskin) and if he's aa then bay is entirely up to the other horse.

    What about producing a chestnut, would that *only* be possible if the horse were Ee?
    Right The horse can still be black, but if he's Ee then he is capable of producing a red-based color

    What about a bay stallion--homozygous for bay (or black), how does one refer to such a stallion? I have seen (in breeding ads for these stallions) "homozygous for black points, cannot produce a chestnut"...
    I see that too and it's a bit misleading as per above (ie when it comes to producing a double dilute, though of course a non-dilute can't do that).

    *I* refer to him as a bay who is homozygous (for) black. I know what folks (usually) mean when they say "homozygous for black points" though
    ______________________________
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieF View Post
    ASBJumper - What a pretty girl!!!

    Maggie
    Thx Maggie!!



  6. #26
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    Not to sidetrack the color discussion, but one of the big things that intrigues me about Balt'Amour as a sire is how strong his mareline is coming through in his offspring. The first foals I saw shocked me in how much they looked like Balt'Amour's dam, who is Ariadus-Cheenook. Given how strongly the Holsteiner A-line (through Acord II), Cheenook and sire Caretino have consistently ranked at the top USEF Hunter Sire rankings over the years, the prepotency of Balt'Amour's motherline should be a huge asset to hunter breeders, especially when combined with well-known hunter producer Alla'Czar.



  7. #27
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    Baywithchrome2, you're right! ...a good hunter combo indeed especially when you throw in the mix of BA's sire, Balta 'Czar/his dam, Jete who has herself produced a few stallion sons. Have you seen Balta Czar's jump? Stunning for the hunters! He is extremely pre-potent for throwing that jump to his offspring! Very exciting for Balt Amour!


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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by baywithchrome2 View Post
    As has been indicated, Balt'Amour hasn't bred extensively so it's still wait and see on what he consistently produces. I own his dam and his full sister though so I've done a ton of research on his relatives. Given that, combined what I personally know of his mother, father, grandmother and sister, I think you can reliably expect very good jump technique, light footed, graceful movement that can hack, a modern elegant type and a very strong topline.

    Frankly, I'm REALLY surprised more hunter breeders haven't used him given the strength of his pedigree, his jump and his beautiful type.
    I know it is expensive and probably not cost effective, but most of the hunter breeders I know want to see good show results over fences before using a relatively young stallion. Being a known entity in the hunter ring can be a better marketing tool than registry approval. I should probably put my flame suit on for typing that, but IME, it's true.


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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    I know it is expensive and probably not cost effective, but most of the hunter breeders I know want to see good show results over fences before using a relatively young stallion. Being a known entity in the hunter ring can be a better marketing tool than registry approval. I should probably put my flame suit on for typing that, but IME, it's true.
    I totally agree tuckaway! No flame suit required. But, I'm not sure if the hunter breeding trends in recent years support your statement. The market seems to favor pretty heads, dark colors and lots of chrome over tried and true in the ring. OK, can I borrow your flamesuit now? :-)



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by About Time View Post
    Baywithchrome2, you're right! ...a good hunter combo indeed especially when you throw in the mix of BA's sire, Balta 'Czar/his dam, Jete who has herself produced a few stallion sons. Have you seen Balta Czar's jump? Stunning for the hunters! He is extremely pre-potent for throwing that jump to his offspring! Very exciting for Balt Amour!
    About Time...totally agree that Jete deserves great homage in the broodmare department. I used to own her stallion son Fidelio. Love him! Don't you own her Balou daughter? Lucky you to get a Jete filly!

    I think my thoughts were all jumbled though... I was trying to say that since Balt'Amour is throwing so strongly to his motherline, hunter breeders are able to tap into the very strong Holsteiner blood that is consistently at the top of the USEF Hunter Performance rankings with Acord II (and his stallion sons), Cheenook and his sire Caretino. Alla'Czar, who has also been at the top of the USEF rankings, becomes the the icing on the cake for hunter breeders.



  11. #31
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    Ah thanks for the clarification, Baywithchrome2. Love Fidelio. that's very cool. Yes I own Jete's daughter by Balou. She is in foal at the moment. I adore her.



  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuckawayfarm View Post
    I know it is expensive and probably not cost effective, but most of the hunter breeders I know want to see good show results over fences before using a relatively young stallion. Being a known entity in the hunter ring can be a better marketing tool than registry approval. I should probably put my flame suit on for typing that, but IME, it's true.
    We are going to try to get Balt'Amour in the Hunter ring this coming year. We have shown him just a bit, with great results, but it is honestly so expensive to show in south FL (WEF) that it wasn't in the budget before. Other stallions being brought along at the same time was also so expensive. We just had to pace ourselves to get it all done. Hopefully we can get a great rider for him so he can show off his talents! The first of his offspring will be hitting the showring next year too!
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