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  1. #41
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    The solar shots also indicate the metabolic issue has not been correctly addressed.

    If it has not, the horse will end up being a 'slow burner'-chronic and slightly sinking every day...add that to trimming the hoof and you will face thinner and thinner sole depth.

    Correct the metabolic insult and WAIT...patience and time, not trimming and shoeing are your friends.

    Especially if that sort of farrier work is the other option



  2. #42
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    My horse also has thin soles. He's an Appendix but mostly thoroughbred. When my current farrier first saw him (almost 6 years ago) the first thing he did was watch him go and looked at xrays I had done a few months prior. He was slightly lame at that time. That was why he was looking at him as I was so frustrated and was trying every angle I could to help him.

    He proceeded to get rid of the Natural Balance shoes that the previous farrier had him in (they weren't done properly anyways) and put him in plain steel shoes with quarter clips. The NB shoes were WAY too small hence why they weren't fitting properly. So first on the agenda was to let my guy grow some foot out as the previous farrier was trimming to fit the shoe... not the other way around. After about 2 shoeing cycles, he was much more sound. He's in shoes 2 sizes bigger now. He wanted to get back to basics with my guy and just focus on trimming him properly. KISS. (Keep It Simple Stupid)

    We added rim pads a few years ago when he was having some heel issues (also added bar shoes for a few cycles). The rim pads help give him some clearance and cushion. His right front is the worse. We have discussed it many times that my horse doesn't really grow vertically. My farrier mainly just balances him out and leaves the sole alone for the most part. Brings his toes back a bit and then he re-sets the shoes. He does have them set back for heel support. We are diligent about making sure we bring his toe back far enough. We have found out that even though xrays show that his toe on the RF should come back a bit more, we keep it as it is since he is telling us that he doesn't like it that short.

    I had another set of xrays done this summer (he has a bone spur on his LF coffin that I like to keep tabs on). Farrier looked at them and since his heel is much thinner on the RF (LF looked okay), we decided to try a very small wedge pad. Um, nope. Made my guy worse. So we pulled the pad off ASAP. He's much more comfy now and we are just going to leave him be.

    I think a lot of it has to do with listening to your horse. You can't always go by the "book". My horse is the king of that. Never the norm.
    Last edited by LSM1212; Nov. 12, 2012 at 01:26 PM.



  3. #43
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    Jun. 23, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by LSM1212 View Post
    He's in shoes 2 sizes bigger now.
    The farrier I have now also has my boy in shoes 2 sizes larger than he started out in and when I told him my first farrier had him in an 0, his eyes got really big and he said "I have to see what this looks like!" and ran over to his truck to grab one. He held it on his foot and was in total disbelief! I was so tickled at this last appointment, his frogs are nice and fat and he's got more exfoilating sole than I've ever seen in the 8 years since he came to me. That says everything is starting to work the way it should. Oh and BTW... LTLH's can contribute to thin soles.

    The mistake many people make (and I'm including farriers here as well) is they think you can't take heel from a horse that's underrun and low. You have to take it, it's there and it's too long only instead of growing down, they grow forward, the more forward they are allowed to grow, they they start to fold under and crush, so on and so forth. Add a horse with long pasterns who already puts more pressure on the heels, because of how he's built, and/or shoes that are too small then you end up with a lame horse, with thin soles, "navicular symptoms" (aka heel pain), just to name a few.

    Okay... I'll climb off my soab box now...
    Last edited by BoyleHeightsKid; Nov. 12, 2012 at 03:13 PM.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  4. #44
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    Actually the mistake people make is thinking you can bring a heel back without making it lower.

    FWIW.


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  5. #45
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    Okay I will agree with you there... many times they think all they need to do is bring the toe back. The first pictures the OP posted looked like a foot like that. The toe was severly dubbed and nothing done to the heels. Poor dudes feet looked like they had been stuffed in high heels that were way too small.

    oh and I meant to ask the OP... do you know what his metabolic issues are exactly? If you stated it I missed it, sorry.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    For those saying cut his heels back...we are taking them back to the sole with every trim, are you saying to cut it out past the sole? Granted...he's had 3 trims now (on a 4 weeks schedule) since putting him back in shoes. The first was just a regular straight steel shoe, then natural balance, now the eggbar.

    I'm having the issues I am now....because I was stupid enough to allow him to go barefoot while healing from his hip/SI injury.
    I wouldn't say stupid for going barefoot while healing from a hip/SI inury. That would allow you to 'stay on top' of the growth of the hind toes while he is healing.
    It's the trim that's the problem, not allowing him to go barefoot while healing. I think if the farrier could trim more of the quarters off so they aren't so tall, flaring out and forward, that could allow your horse to more comfortably weight his heels. By keeping the quarters at a proper length you can effectively move the weight bearing part of his heels back and NOT have to keep lowering the heels to get them back.



  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippigirl View Post
    I think if the farrier could trim more of the quarters off so they aren't so tall, flaring out and forward, that could allow your horse to more comfortably weight his heels. By keeping the quarters at a proper length you can effectively move the weight bearing part of his heels back and NOT have to keep lowering the heels to get them back.
    If we are looking at the same feet I do not see ANYTHING too tall about this foot.

    It is short...too short. Removing MORE foot from any part-quarters, heels or wherever just makes it shorter.

    Bad bad bad idea.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    If we are looking at the same feet I do not see ANYTHING too tall about this foot.

    It is short...too short. Removing MORE foot from any part-quarters, heels or wherever just makes it shorter.

    Bad bad bad idea.
    ...that's because you are not looking at the feet correctly. Go back and have another look at the direction of the hoof growth and lines.

    Not bad bad bad bad bad......bad ...bad.....idea........


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
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    yes it is. I don't give too hoots about the direction of the growth when the foot is that short.

    As i have said (repeatedly), when the horse is metabolically in balance, the hoof will repair-it will correct itself.

    But if you start cutting down an already short foot you are setting the horse up for a world of problems.

    A good farrier can band-aid the issue by trimming and adding back in pads, shoes, etc but this is not addressing the cause of the problem.

    This horse has every indication that something going in his body is making these feet 'come out.'

    There are two possible approaches-cut and paste and go on OR invest in an overall program that will allow healing.

    And no I am not talking about gimping around barefoot for years on end.


    Unless you have actually tried this approach with total attention to detail of diet, then you can't understand how effective and predictable the outcome is.



  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    yes it is. I don't give too hoots about the direction of the growth when the foot is that short.

    As i have said (repeatedly), when the horse is metabolically in balance, the hoof will repair-it will correct itself..
    You should care about the direction of growth. The fact that you don't, shows why you can't see properly what's going on with those feet. You keep saying metabolically repeatedly without considering all the pieces to the puzzle.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    But if you start cutting down an already short foot you are setting the horse up for a world of problems.
    You really need to go back and have a second look. Seriously, really have a good look.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    A good farrier can band-aid the issue by trimming and adding back in pads, shoes, etc but this is not addressing the cause of the problem.
    I should think that Rick would do far more than a 'band-aid solution'. Why would we need to have a good farrier then? Exact same can be said for diet. Throw all the right food and supplements and paints and hardeners but if the trim is not there....you're wasting time and money and the horse's health.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    This horse has every indication that something going in his body is making these feet 'come out.'

    There are two possible approaches-cut and paste and go on OR invest in an overall program that will allow healing.

    And no I am not talking about gimping around barefoot for years on end.
    Well, if you don't address the trim and just throw special groceries at the horse..he WILL be gimping around with shoes. Did you not read that this horse is in shoes and NOT barefoot? I did. Who is telling the op to go barefoot? Are you??? I never said to. Tells me you're not even reading my posts properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Unless you have actually tried this approach with total attention to detail of diet, then you can't understand how effective and predictable the outcome is.
    Well, show me an example then. Show me specifically how a bad trim can be corrected with just diet alone then or how a physical imbalance can be cured by supplements. It'll help...but not cure. If it did, that might save all the horse owners the headache of worrying about a decent trim. That would make life so much easier. I don't think you can show an example. Why? Because I'm not convinced that you can properly assess a hoof photo anyways.



  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippigirl View Post
    I don't think
    Indeed.

    And evidently you don't read very well.

    BUT you do a great job of arguing with things I never said!!
    Last edited by LMH; Nov. 12, 2012 at 10:32 PM.



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Indeed.

    And evidently you don't read very well.

    BUT you do a great job of arguing with things I never said!!
    Hahahahahaaa! That's all you have??? Guess your only option left is to take it personal. That's too bad.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
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    I recall talking with an very reputable equine orthopedic surgeon whom had said sometimes he refers clients to a great farrier they actually send the horse to the farrier and keep it there for a while so farrier can figure out what works best for that horse.



  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fharoah View Post
    I recall talking with an very reputable equine orthopedic surgeon whom had said sometimes he refers clients to a great farrier they actually send the horse to the farrier and keep it there for a while so farrier can figure out what works best for that horse.
    No offense to you Fharoah but that is most absurd idea.

    That shows a total lack of understanding of the impacts and influences on the hoof. Everything from environment, different grasses in different pastures, saddle fit, training, rider imbalance, etc determine hoof growth.

    Hoof health is NOT just about the farrier.



  15. #55
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    and so the world turns...
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pippigirl View Post
    Hahahahahaaa! That's all you have??? Guess your only option left is to take it personal. That's too bad.
    No Pippi, the depth of your lack of understanding has only proven that trying to educate you is a complete waste of effort and time.

    The fact that you can't recognize the depth of metabolic insults to this foot indicate you do not have the experience to be offering hoof advice.



    There is a rehabilitation clinic in the UK that has tons of information on helping hooves in precisely the way I would suggest.

    There is another professional in NC with a similar program and results.

    There are also several private horse owners that have experienced positive results from changing environments first before whacking and hacking.

    Every one of my horses will have growth issues (underrun heels on one, clubfoot on another, flares on another, thrush on all, cracks on one)...they happen only when they have a diet to high in green growing rich grass.

    I remove the grass and EVERY problem solves-including the direction of tubule growth...it happens EVERY time on EVERY horse.

    I do not trim them through it. I have 2 donkeys that have not been touched by a rasp in 3 years, 2 horses in 2 years and 1 horse in about 6 months.

    100% repeatable.

    Now granted you still have to consider biomechanics, rider weight, imbalances to get the best foot you can get-but 4 of mine are not even ridden at this time and stilll 100% repeatable.

    FWIW.

    Again, the topic is far too in depth to try to explain to you on a forum thread.

    I offered the thought for the OP when it became apparent that no one had mentioned the metabolism issue.

    So no, there is nothing you can offer that I would take personally. In the same way that the OP is likely not going to consider what I have suggested-I won't take it personally. It does not impact me personally.

    Also this is not about barefoot...this is about creating a healthy hoof and shoeing or not if the horse needs it.

    It is not about shoes are bad...but it seems prudent to at least address the issues that are not shoe related so the farrier has a fighting chance-which he does not with these feet.

    And finally all of the arguing, back and forth, emoticons and foreign language will not change what I am saying.

    The photos of this horse indicate he has something that is negatively influencing his metabolism.

    Until that is changed, no farrier will be able to jump the hurdle. He will be able to shoe the horse and perhaps leave him functional BUT so long as the influence is there, the farrier will be fighting an uphill battle and will be subjected to armchair hoof people analyzing his work.

    IF the horse were placed in an environment that removed the negative influence, his feet would improve with or without farrier intervention.

    Once the horse is 'at his best' will he be able to perform his required duties without a good farrier? No idea...but at least then a farrier can do his job and provide traction, protection from wear or whatever without fighting the other mess going on.

    Not terribly sexy, not earth shattering, but a point that seems lost on most of the responses and one essential to the health of this horse.
    Last edited by LMH; Nov. 13, 2012 at 06:59 AM.



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fharoah View Post
    I recall talking with an very reputable equine orthopedic surgeon whom had said sometimes he refers clients to a great farrier they actually send the horse to the farrier and keep it there for a while so farrier can figure out what works best for that horse.
    The master farrier I learned to shoe from shod horses in the mornings in the mounted police barn and in the afternoons in our riding school, five days a week.
    I spent years watching him and a good 9 months working in his blacksmith shop in our riding center 5 afternoons a week, pulling shoes, making shoes and trimming and shoeing eventually.

    I think that is why it was so easy for me to learn to shoe right, because I was around the horses so much of the time, feeding, exercising, training and giving lessons and trail rides.
    When I shod a horse, I got to watch that horse move all day long and learned in a hurry what looks right and what was not good enough.

    That master farrier would come out and watch the lessons and tell us so much about the horses, the way they were moving and how he would shoe them next and why.
    At times, he would call a horse over, lift it's foot and show us what he meant, right on the spot.

    We didn't have keg shoes, every shoe was hand made from bar steel for each horse.
    When I later had my own riding school, I leased the horses from our main riding center, horses he had shod for years.
    I didn't have a forge.
    I would tell him what horses needed shoes and he would send them already perfect for that horse, ready for me to nail on, rarely needing a bit of tweaking on the anvil.

    I do think there is merit to, for some horses with certain problems, that they may be helped best with the farrier being able to watch them for more than the time it takes to shoe them.
    Even just watching a horse move in a pen at several times during the day may help a good farrier to see more than most people can notice.



  18. #58
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    I haven't read through all the responses but honestly you need a new farrier and you need to take a step back with all these different shoes and shoeing techniques, I really don't think they are helping your horse.

    My old girl has a load of issues in one of her front feet and I got her awesome vet and wonderful farrier together one afternoon, took some x-rays of her feet, farrier did his normal trim job and then we re x-rayed and it was amazing to see just how much the alignment of the bones in her feet changed from his normal trim. Just think about that for your guy, it doesn't take much to screw them up.

    Get a good vet and a great farrier. It will take time.



  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    No offense to you Fharoah but that is most absurd idea.
    Actually, in some instances, its not such a bad idea. Most of the time, that kind of lay-up is occurring because the horse has severe hoof pathology(ies) that need to be closely monitored and dealt with. Often this takes place at a veterinary clinic with a staff farrier or ready access to a farrier. If the clinic has no facilities for ongoing care but the farrier does, then the client is often referred to the farrier for a rehabilitative stay. Always keep in mind RFL, eg: It Depends.....
    That shows a total lack of understanding of the impacts and influences on the hoof. Everything from environment, different grasses in different pastures, saddle fit, training, rider imbalance, etc determine hoof growth.
    Hmmmm, haven't you be arguing that hoof growth/health is all about metabolism and getting metabolic issues corrected??
    [quotew]Hoof health is NOT just about the farrier.[/QUOTE]
    Sorry Leah, but your crawfishing again. According to your earlier position, its not about the farrier at all. In fact, you claimed that if the horse has correct metabolism, it doesn't even need the services of a hoof care provider. You claimed that correct metabolism would reverse long toes, underrun heels, and any other problem or pathology afflicting the hoof. And that claim doesn't withstand scrutiny, the sniff test, and existent empirical evidence. And always bear in mind RFL and that the plural of anecdote is not, data....


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  20. #60
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    So yesterday one of my friends and I were kicking around the idea of an infection in his frog area or foot, she was recommending soaking in lysol a few times a week just in case.

    So...Saturday I wrapped his feet with a diaper and a menthol epsom salt poultice I had on hand (http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...FdKd4AodcQ4AUA ) . I took the wrap of this morning....omg ewwww. The outside of the diaper was completely dry and intact, as well as the vet wrap. but inside...both heels have a black gooey substance that seriously smelled like road kill in July....I was gagging.

    I didn't see any obvious exit's for an abscess....so not sure if his heels are leaching infection or what the heck is going on but *shudder*

    I was out of vet wrap (thought I had more for some reason) so just left him unbooted, its supposed to pour all day today anyway. I soaked him in lysol in case its some type of infection, and I'll soak him again tomorrow, then trying to decide if I should rewrap or let the infection continue to leach.

    White foot (hard to see on black foot)

    Close up of gunk

    His feet were completely clean before getting wrapped so I KNOW this is coming from his foot, not anything "outside"



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