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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Sorry Leah, but your crawfishing again.

    No Rick, I am not.


    According to your earlier position, its not about the farrier at all.

    The farrier can certainly make things worse...but when you have another 'insult' then his job is going to be uphill.

    Sometimes an owner can't or won't remedy the negative influences so a farrier will have to step in...but his job is not the primary one. In other words, other factors may trump farrier. It is not diminishing the importance but certainly takes the pressure off. *wink*
    For example you do your best work but the horse is eating an inappropriate diet and is in a state of chronic laminitis-you can't fix that...a change in environment is all that fixes that (meaning diet, etc)

    In fact, you claimed that if the horse has correct metabolism, it doesn't even need the services of a hoof care provider.

    When the metabolic insult is the cause of the issue, and you remove the cause, indeed, there will be nothing left for a hoof care provider to do.



    You claimed that correct metabolism would reverse long toes, underrun heels, and any other problem or pathology afflicting the hoof.

    Yes I did make that claim and I and others have witnessed it time and time again.
    I have also included the fact that other insults can occur-poor farrier work may trump a good metabolism. Saddle fit, imbalances in biomechanics and rider are also influences-however when the metabolism is flushing, nothing else can fix that.

    In my personal experience a correctly functioning metabolism is the big gun, the foundation...many other 'insults' are more easily endured when the system is strong. That is why I emphasize it first.

    Of course you can have a butcher job SO bad it ruins it all

    And let's face it, when you have feet so terribly unhealthy my first recommendation would be to stop all riding, etc and start with getting the system healthy...once that is in place then you have to address saddle, etc. So in the first phase of healing, none of those factors are players anymore-except perhaps muscle memory, etc

    It is like stacking blocks

    Is that stated more clearly?


    And that claim doesn't withstand scrutiny, the sniff test, and existent empirical evidence. And always bear in mind RFL and that the plural of anecdote is not, data....
    It does withstand all of those things even if you don't agree.

    And yes I often give quick responses without details because my responses become so long winded and end up being a waste of time when I have to line by ling with you over the same ole same ole

    Hopefully that clarifies the order and emphasis that I presented.



  2. #62
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    Just wanting to add...this horse has been out of work since his injury in March. We did briefly start him back with some walk work post SI injection in August, but once his feet started deteriorating that was stopped.

    I don't ride my horses if they aren't comfortable.



  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    So yesterday one of my friends and I were kicking around the idea of an infection in his frog area or foot, she was recommending soaking in lysol a few times a week just in case.

    He DOES have infection in his frog-whether it is bacteria, yeast, fungus I don't know but with his other history it is one of the main reasons I keep preaching metabolism.


    So...Saturday I wrapped his feet with a diaper and a menthol epsom salt poultice I had on hand (http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...FdKd4AodcQ4AUA ) . I took the wrap of this morning....omg ewwww. The outside of the diaper was completely dry and intact, as well as the vet wrap. but inside...both heels have a black gooey substance that seriously smelled like road kill in July....I was gagging.

    Would have expected nothing less.


    I didn't see any obvious exit's for an abscess....so not sure if his heels are leaching infection or what the heck is going on but *shudder*

    I thought i saw one photo that should a horizontal crack that looked like an old abscess but I could be mistaken. His feet ARE infected and my first guess is metabolic insult.


    I was out of vet wrap (thought I had more for some reason) so just left him unbooted, its supposed to pour all day today anyway. I soaked him in lysol in case its some type of infection, and I'll soak him again tomorrow, then trying to decide if I should rewrap or let the infection continue to leach.

    White foot (hard to see on black foot)

    Close up of gunk

    His feet were completely clean before getting wrapped so I KNOW this is coming from his foot, not anything "outside"

    I wouldn't keep the foot wrapped.

    The first line of defense is remove the cause.

    To speed things along, I have had very good luck with No Thrush-but there are several good products. Durasole is another...

    But again you have to remove the insult or you will simply treat the problem until eternity.



  4. #64
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    LMH-that is what my friend was saying. She has a mare that has a lot of metabolic issues (this is her blog http://chronicleofthehoof.blogspot.com/) so I certainly am open to metabolic issues. He's been on the feed she gives her mare for about a month http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...92565628_n.jpg (test results).

    I saw the crack as well on the picture, but didn't see it in person. Abscess is "possible" but it would be rather improbable that both feet would have an invisible abscess pop at the same time.

    He is lamer then before now, possibly because he's no longer being booted over-top of the shoes, or my friends theory is that the active infection has caused some inflammation while draining.

    I actually have no thrush on hand so can use that.

    I'm working on getting a farrier that specializes in corrective shoeing (and can hot shoe) out next week if possible.



  5. #65
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    I wouldn't be so quick to rule out abscesses in both feet...

    Just a thought... I wonder if your friend had Buttercup tested for allergies (I didn't read the whole blog).
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
    Tinner's Way x Sculpture by Hail to Reason
    "Once you go off track, you never go back!"



  6. #66
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    Black purulence generally indicates a bacterial infection.

    There is no such thing as 'corrective farriery', only correct and incorrect farriery/hoof care/whatever.

    Straight Lysol can be injurious to juvenile tissue.

    Clean Trax and/or White Lightning are two good alternatives with proven efficacy.



  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Black purulence generally indicates a bacterial infection.

    There is no such thing as 'corrective farriery', only correct and incorrect farriery/hoof care/whatever.

    Straight Lysol can be injurious to juvenile tissue.

    Clean Trax and/or White Lightning are two good alternatives with proven efficacy.
    Would you say though if he has a history and reputation for being a corrective shoer that would be a good place to start?

    My friend uses one capful in a gallon of hot water, the old fashioned "brown" kind. Her mare has a bad crack from an old abscess scarring the coronet band and she uses regular soaks to keep the infection under control. She's had better luck using the lysol dilution then she has with the White Lightning (plus I have the lysol on hand), which is why I was looking at that.



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    There is no such thing as 'corrective farriery', only correct and incorrect farriery/hoof care/whatever.

    Straight Lysol can be injurious to juvenile tissue.

    Clean Trax and/or White Lightning are two good alternatives with proven efficacy.

    We agree! We agree!!



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    Would you say though if he has a history and reputation for being a corrective shoer that would be a good place to start?

    See Rick's comment again-correct or incorrect are pretty much the camps


    My friend uses one capful in a gallon of hot water, the old fashioned "brown" kind. Her mare has a bad crack from an old abscess scarring the coronet band and she uses regular soaks to keep the infection under control. She's had better luck using the lysol dilution then she has with the White Lightning (plus I have the lysol on hand), which is why I was looking at that.
    If there is a crack, it looks to be old...I would avoid anything around daily soaking-it just softens the hoof and sets up moist wet conditions-breeding grounds for icky things.

    A one or two time soak with CleanTrax/White Lightning is a better option...or that followed with a drying product like NoThrush or Durasole.

    But again...and I keep repeating because the more information you give, the more it sounds like this horse is really needing his entire 'husbandry' addressed.

    What does this horse eat-including grass, hay, etc.?

    What are his living arrangements? Turnout? I know you said he is not ridden-is he exercised at all? Even moving during turnout?

    Has he recently been on anti-biotics? Dewormed? Anything else you can think of?



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    If there is a crack, it looks to be old...I would avoid anything around daily soaking-it just softens the hoof and sets up moist wet conditions-breeding grounds for icky things.

    A one or two time soak with CleanTrax/White Lightning is a better option...or that followed with a drying product like NoThrush or Durasole.

    But again...and I keep repeating because the more information you give, the more it sounds like this horse is really needing his entire 'husbandry' addressed.

    What does this horse eat-including grass, hay, etc.?

    What are his living arrangements? Turnout? I know you said he is not ridden-is he exercised at all? Even moving during turnout?

    Has he recently been on anti-biotics? Dewormed? Anything else you can think of?
    Her mare has a deep crack . While my guy does have one across the front, it is very superficial and neither I, the vet, or anyone else have ever been concerned....actually was almost gone then came back when I pulled his shoes.

    He is on 24/7 turnout, there's limited grass, mainly fescue, but he's in a smaller paddock (3/4 acre with some trees) so not really enough to warrant muzzling. He's on timothy hay, he does move around some...but is ouchy enough that I don't force the issue. His water is a bit of a walk away, and he does scrounge for grass, plus is out with my yearling. He will play when he's not ouchy, that's actually a really good indication of how he's feeling since he's a HARD player (this was in October after he first got the natural balance...he's the demented bunny with the white face)

    He was dewormed last with Safeguard nov 1. Before that was ivermectrin in August, and then Quest plus in May.

    He was on antibiotics/probios (SMZ's) in January for a shoulder abscess, Robaxin in June for acute back soreness (back soreness was gone when we injected his SI then put shoes on him).

    He is fed free choice Timothy/Orchard, plus a custom mixture of soaked Beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, BOSS, flax, and cool calories. His supplements are Corta Flx, Farrier Formula, and Lysine (he had drastic muscle loss as well during his "ouchy" times).

    He has always been an easy keeper, when he was initially injured in March, his weight nose dived, presumably due to pain. During the course of trying to figure out what was bothering him after his hip was healed, we tested for lyme, vit E/selenium deficiency, neuro issues etc. The SI was a last resort, and when we ultra-sounded, he did have some lesions in his SI ligament, which the vet injected directly (ultrasound guided injection). Upon being injected, his rear end lameness improved, his back issues went away, and his weight improved.



  11. #71
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    Do you and your friend use the same farrier??



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    We agree! We agree!!
    I'm buying a lottery ticket today and you should too...


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jocelynne View Post
    Do you and your friend use the same farrier??
    No we do not, she actually moved to SC a year or so back, I'm in NC outside of Va Beach.



  14. #74
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    Oh at the risk of even more thumbs down ratings for my post I will give you more of my thoughts...I deleted anything that did not relate to my response

    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post

    He is on 24/7 turnout, there's limited grass, mainly fescue, but he's in a smaller paddock (3/4 acre with some trees) so not really enough to warrant muzzling.

    And here we have yet another contributor to the metabolic issue...24 hour turnout on fescue grass

    Can you please give a timeline in one post on what happened when? When the soreness started, when the SI issue was suspected.

    Has he always been out 24/7 on fescue?
    I would give pretty good odds that he will improve now that winter is here-the fescue should be dormant in your area as it already is darn close in GA.

    Fescue in and of itself is troublesome-24 hour fescue is close to a nightmare. I have a mare that can tolerate ZERO green growing fescue but she is fine out 24 hours when it is dormant.



    He was dewormed last with Safeguard nov 1. Before that was ivermectrin in August, and then Quest plus in May.

    Suspect number 2. I deworm my horses but often shortly after they can get a pulse or have a slight hoof crash. Some horses maybe not-but it seems to impact those already having issues...so now we have 24 hours of previously growing fescue and deworming.


    He was on antibiotics/probios (SMZ's) in January for a shoulder abscess, Robaxin in June for acute back soreness (back soreness was gone when we injected his SI then put shoes on him).

    I would not think either of these are issues now but they could have contributed back then, add back in the fescue and you have a system struggling to stabilize. But you do what you have to and just learn to realize things may go downhill for awhile after.


    He is fed free choice Timothy/Orchard, plus a custom mixture of soaked Beet pulp, alfalfa pellets, BOSS, flax, and cool calories. His supplements are Corta Flx, Farrier Formula, and Lysine (he had drastic muscle loss as well during his "ouchy" times).

    Nothing in the list is downright scary but that is a lot of 'stuff' for a horse that is IMHO struggling to stabilize his system.


    He has always been an easy keeper, when he was initially injured in March, his weight nose dived, presumably due to pain. During the course of trying to figure out what was bothering him after his hip was healed, we tested for lyme, vit E/selenium deficiency, neuro issues etc. The SI was a last resort, and when we ultra-sounded, he did have some lesions in his SI ligament, which the vet injected directly (ultrasound guided injection). Upon being injected, his rear end lameness improved, his back issues went away, and his weight improved.
    Interestingly enough I know several horses that have a connection between metabolic issues and SI/pelvis issues. I wish I could find a better connection...the trouble is they all have SI issues from a know fall...I sometimes wonder if the stress of the injury triggers some kind of metabolic issue...no idea, simply commenting the the connection between the two is creepy.

    Anyway...more ideas you can ponder or dismiss.





  15. #75
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    Back in March, actually the week before his PPX exam (I was trying to downsize), he came up short in the hind. My vet diagnosed a hip injury (she called it a knockdown injury) where he had slammed the "shelf" of his hip into something....most likely a tree getting away from the alpha mare. The muscles were damaged and he had a pretty good amount of swelling in his hip/flank region. We did some bute and limited activity and he just needed time off.

    When the inflammation was gone and the initial injury was healed, he was still EXTREMELY ouchy and short on that hind. We did the rounds of testing, before ultrasounding and injecting his SI. Her theory is that the same injury also caused some damage to the SI Ligament.

    He still had back soreness after getting injected, so we put shoes on and the back soreness disappeared. He's however, never been 100% sound. He was extremely lame, we did the Natural balance shoes and he was actually "almost" sound (sound on the straight of way, ouchy in tight turns to the right). Then toward the end of the cycle, he went dead dead dead lame. Did the x rays and the eggbar's upon the recommendation of the vet, and he's just as bad off.

    He's always been on fescue, both with me (I purchased him last October) and with his previous owner who was about 2 hours from me. However, he's also always had horrible feet, including with his other owner who had a very good barefoot (but will shoe) guy working on him.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    He's always been on fescue, both with me (I purchased him last October) and with his previous owner who was about 2 hours from me. However, he's also always had horrible feet, including with his other owner who had a very good barefoot (but will shoe) guy working on him.
    Thank you for taking the time to lay that out for me-sometimes it is confusing to keep up with posts and comments to get an accurate timeline.

    And again-always been on fescue, always had bad feet...*shrugs*...I really think you are dealing with a horse that is pretty sensitive to things...

    Yes he suffered an injury and that is an independent issue-but as I said (and this is just my own fascination-mine and a friend's actually)...I find the connection with SI 'injuries' and metabolic issues interesting.

    Let me branch out a bit...I had an aussie that tore both his ACLs-I saw the first tear happen...it was an 'injury' but was it? OR was it the results of some insult going on in his body? Why him and not another dog? I did find a study the found a connection between early neutering and ACL tears in certain breeds...then of course ask why not all dogs that are neutered early.

    Not horse related of course but sometimes it just seems there are those predisposed to injury or post injury inability to heal...and they seem to have a mess going on somewhere else.

    I am sorry you are facing this with a horse you have not owned very long.

    Were it my horse, I would strip it down to basics. I would yank a lot of the feedstuff, put him in a dry lot for awhile with the hay you are feeding and observe.

    If I were experienced in the area i would do some pretty noninvasive type bodywork (I love the Masterson Method) to help speed along the change in muscle memory.

    Same with some very gentle in hand ground work (ala Deb Bennett/Woody/Straightness---especially with a one sided injury like he had and my filly had)...

    And at the same time invest some time in helping the horse to mentally release...with so much going on he has to be caring some mental bracing against the pain and discomfort.

    I don't like leaving a sore horse without protection but I would be awfully careful about selecting a farrier in this case. I may opt for barefoot and casting for awhile.

    Anyway, you don't know me from Adam and you can obviously see my take on things is not the most popular-but I have been where you are and spent a great deal of time trying to find answers to something that traditional answers were not fixing.

    Whatever you do, best of luck to you. Been there, spent the money, felt the frustration.



  17. #77
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    I think the whole voting thing is getting way out of hand...

    I just wanted to ask, if the grass is now dormant, is the dry lot necessary?
    Siouxland Sporthorses: http://slsfarm.blogspot.com/

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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrotTrotPumpkn View Post

    I just wanted to ask, if the grass is now dormant, is the dry lot necessary?
    It depends on the horse.

    To be VERY VERY safe *I* would go a bit in a dry lot to see if there is any change or improvement...then I would know better if dormant grass is ok for this horse.



  19. #79
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    He actually just came off a dry lot about a week and a half ago. He was already in one to give the pastures a break, then we were hit by Hurricane Sandy and the pastures were trashed so needed time off, he was moved back into the pasture last saturday. .my grass is pretty durn dormant. (taken this morning).



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