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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fharoah View Post
    Or if you have a really good vet shoeing the horse using radiographs may help assist in appropriate shoeing.
    Or maybe she should have a really good trainer/groom/stable hand/feed supplier/saddle fitter/etc ad naseum do the job. Heaven forfend she has a really good farrier do the job.. That said, there are some vets out there that before their current occupation(and even during their current occupation), were farriers. A few of them were/are actually good ones........



  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    or you could just address his metabolic issues.
    Addressing his metabolic issues(assuming there are some present) alone, is not going to fix those feet. ymmv


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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by leahandpie View Post
    I think this horse j It boggles my mind why shoeing should be so complex.
    I suggest you spend some time riding with a good farrier(s). I think that your opinion might change. Many of us have spent our careers furthering our education and understanding of anatomy, physics, bio-mechanics, gait analysis, metallurgy, and the like, and devoted countless hours towards developing and fine tuning the physical skills necessary to provide our customers with the best service we can provide.
    Vets IMHO are not qualified to instruct farriers.
    You got that right! Exceptions noted.


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    Addressing his metabolic issues(assuming there are some present) alone, is not going to fix those feet. ymmv
    Actually it will. And they are.

    100% repeatable.

    Or I should clarify-will fix as best as they can be fixed. It may take a good farrier to allow the horse to be useable at the job the owner wishes to pursue BUT without addressing the metabolic issue, the problem is not 'solved.'

    The damage could be so bad that the horse can not perform without 'help.'

    As i said, my opinion would be in the minority-particularly among the farrier crowd that would become less god-like if correcting feet could be achieved by addressing metabolism.

    But I understand everyone has a family to feed.

    And I still love you Rick.

    And yes I am smug on this one. And no I do not care to debate or blah blah about double blind studies.

    Cheers.



  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post
    I suggest you spend some time riding with a good farrier(s). I think that your opinion might change. Many of us have spent our careers furthering our education and understanding of anatomy, physics, bio-mechanics, gait analysis, metallurgy, and the like, and devoted countless hours towards developing and fine tuning the physical skills necessary to provide our customers with the best service we can provide.

    You got that right! Exceptions noted.
    I mean the odd shoeing job on this horse and the 'complex' issues with his feet...I don't see why his feet are requiring all the odd shoeing solutions. I think that a good farrier is THE KEY to keeping a performance horse sound and at the top of his game...and the OP needs to find a better one IMHO...
    Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    Actually it will. And they are.

    100% repeatable.
    The proof of the pudding is in the tasting........
    Or I should clarify-will fix as best as they can be fixed. It may take a good farrier to allow the horse to be useable at the job the owner wishes to pursue BUT without addressing the metabolic issue, the problem is not 'solved.'
    Metabolic issues are but one part of the equation.
    The damage could be so bad that the horse can not perform without 'help.'
    Counselor, you are arguing both sides of the discussion.
    As i said, my opinion would be in the minority-particularly among the farrier crowd that would become less god-like if correcting feet could be achieved by addressing metabolism.
    ROTFLMAO!!!
    And I still love you Rick.
    Ditto
    And yes I am smug on this one.
    Of course you are. Just as you have been with other hoof care opinions you've held in the past.......
    And no I do not care to debate or blah blah about double blind studies.
    The plural of anecdote is not, data..
    Cheers.
    To you too.



  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Burten View Post

    Of course you are. Just as you have been with other hoof care opinions you've held in the past.......
    Certainly if consider the first few years...this actual statement I have made has been long standing by me and held by others that have been in a position to prove it true.

    Something most owners and even less farriers do not have the luxury of doing. Owners, often because of a boarding situation...farriers...well obviously don't own the horse.

    In any case, you do what you can if my suggestion is not an option.

    Of course I would stop this particular 'professional' from trying to 'help' the horse any further...and on that I am certain we will agree.



  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    I have a LOVELY gelding that I've had some issues with over the last year. He apparently smacked his hip into a tree back in March, tearing the muscle. Time off and some bute and that was improved, however he was then lame in the rear. Ultrasound showed some damage to the SI, so we injected that, and he slowly improved and while he would sometimes start out stiff, walking over some ground poles and then trotting he'd loosen right up.

    A few weeks after the improvement...he was off in the front. We changed his shoeing (Natural balance) and he was improved for about 2 weeks...not overtly lame, but still ouchy in tight turns. Vet came out and did x rays, the diagnoses is very very very thin soles, along with an increase in bone density.

    Per her recommendation, we shod using eggbar shoes without pads (he does not have the sole depth to handle pads at this time, not even the pour ins). It has now been about 3 weeks and he's still 3 legged lame.

    I've ordered some Magic Cushion poultice, and was going to try packing his feet, and I'm debating alternating him in a hoof boot to see if that would help. My ground is very hard/rocky, which I'm sure isn't helping.

    Part of the issue is also that I had pulled his shoes while he was out with his hip/back, and his feet splayed out severely, which most likely added to the problem. Once that has grown out, he "should" improve, however he has glaciar slow growth :/

    He's on Farrier Formula 2x along with a low starch diet.

    Any suggestions? Husband has been pushing me to rehome him (his issues are coming on top of a large number of substantial vet bills with some of my other horses) but he's just so freaking sweet I can't bring myself to do it. I mean....how many 6 year old guys on stall rest would let a kid do this to them and would then allow a four year old to lead them to/from their field and take such care to be careful of lil feet.

    This horse has such potential...a massive knees to eyeballs jump and lands with a natural quiet canter. Plus has the brain to easily be a childrens hunter...but I can't keep pouring money into him for "one last thing".

    Sorry...bit of a vent/cry for help. Does anyone have any thoughts to help get him less foot sore? I'm just tired of seeing this horse in pain!

    x rays

    Left front

    Right front (this is his bad foot so we did additional views to eliminate coffin fracture and to look at his navicular bone).
    Have not read any answers, but I will point out that a horse with ouchy feet will be wonderfully quiet and sweet, because his ouchy feet taught him he just can't move that much or fast without considerable pain.

    At least until the pain becomes so bad he then gets kind of cranky and out of sorts in general.

    Just thought I mention this up front, having seen it time and again.
    People think they have wonderful slow, kind horses, until their pain is addressed and they either still stay the same super gentle horse, or start getting fresh if that is who they really are.

    Very sorry you are in that situation with him.

    Edited to add I read thru the answers and seems that you have enough to go by already, don't need any more ideas floating around, do you.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #29
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    A lame horse is a tame horse.



  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMH View Post
    A lame horse is a tame horse.
    Not always. I have known some to have become dangerous due to soreness. Some do 'shut down' but not all.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #31
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    Geeze..Yeah I don't agree with either the vet or farrier here. One GOOD shoe job would go a long way to helping this horse.

    The heels NEED brought back and down as they actually look wayyyyyy too LONG but run way forward and crushing. You get them short and back in proper place in just one to maybe 2 shoeings at most and then use wedging used if needed to align the bones as it regrows in straight. Those heels LOOK painful and are essentially bending forward under this horses descending weight making his quarters bulge out terribly. The heels are the key here and they NEED brought back and down by someone who knows what they are doing. I also see adequate solar depth that will increase probably once those terrible heels are dealt with and the resulting flair can grow in tight again. Its trying.



  12. #32
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    Sure, the horse might have metabolic issues. However, IF it does, addressing those issues is not going to pull the heels back. That horse needs a better farrier who knows how to address underrun heels.



  13. #33
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    Unless a horse is sufficiently sunk, addressing metabolic issues (without interference of bad shoeing/trimming) will in fact improve heel placement in a barefoot horse.

    If he is 'distally descended' it can impact the success.

    In other words, thin soles can leave the horse sore so puts a twist on success barefoot. Especially if the horse needs to stay in work.

    I don't intend to debate this for 3 pages and then in turn have the name calling begin BUT i have witnessed it and know of others in other states (different environments, different breeds) that have witnessed it as well.

    I have no experience if it can happen in shoes...but it can happen in a barefoot horse.

    In any case, if that is not an option it is far better to shoe a horse to prevent the discomfort that happens when the metabolic issue is unable to be properly addressed.

    But it can happen and does happen. Seen it with my own eyes!


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  14. #34
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    We actually are attempting to address his metabolic issues. I have a close friend with a horse that has extreme metabolic issues, I've feeding him the same concoction that her mare is on which has a tested NSC of 8%.


    With that said...the drastic growth line was from where he was shod, and the comparison to his barefoot "hoof", although he has a very mobile foot that shows every dietary change which leads my friend to think he has a similar condition to her mare, although not quite as drastic.

    For those saying cut his heels back...we are taking them back to the sole with every trim, are you saying to cut it out past the sole? Granted...he's had 3 trims now (on a 4 weeks schedule) since putting him back in shoes. The first was just a regular straight steel shoe, then natural balance, now the eggbar.

    He has 7.9mm sole depth per the measurements the vet took on the x-ray.

    I say that his right front is his "bad" foot not because it looks worse, but rather because it is the foot he's consistently lame on.

    As far as temperament goes. I've owned this horse now for a year and was able to ride him for several months before he was injured.I also "knew" him for 2 years before that (where he was actually under the care of a well known barefooter...however, he still had underrun heels, that barefoot had the same concerns with being too drastic with changing him up). He has always been a complete sweetheart, so I'm not overly concerned about him becoming a devil child after getting his feet fixed He just doesn't have that type of personality.

    I do appreciate everyone's help. I took some new pictures this weekend with the egg bar shoeing. Barefoot is not an option for him right now, my ground is very abrasive and that's one of the reasons I'm having the issues I am now....because I was stupid enough to allow him to go barefoot while healing from his hip/SI injury.

    Left front (I rasped away some hoof that was flaking away slightly)

    Left Solar shot

    Left heels. Both heels have a crack in them...not sure if its flaking away or he's cut himself.

    Right front

    Right solar

    Right heel-again with a crack in the heel



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper_girl221 View Post
    We actually are attempting to address his metabolic issues. I have a close friend with a horse that has extreme metabolic issues, I've feeding him the same concoction that her mare is on which has a tested NSC of 8%.


    With that said...the drastic growth line was from where he was shod, and the comparison to his barefoot "hoof", although he has a very mobile foot that shows every dietary change which leads my friend to think he has a similar condition to her mare, although not quite as drastic.

    For those saying cut his heels back...we are taking them back to the sole with every trim, are you saying to cut it out past the sole? Granted...he's had 3 trims now (on a 4 weeks schedule) since putting him back in shoes. The first was just a regular straight steel shoe, then natural balance, now the eggbar.

    He has 7.9mm sole depth per the measurements the vet took on the x-ray.

    I say that his right front is his "bad" foot not because it looks worse, but rather because it is the foot he's consistently lame on.

    As far as temperament goes. I've owned this horse now for a year and was able to ride him for several months before he was injured.I also "knew" him for 2 years before that (where he was actually under the care of a well known barefooter...however, he still had underrun heels, that barefoot had the same concerns with being too drastic with changing him up). He has always been a complete sweetheart, so I'm not overly concerned about him becoming a devil child after getting his feet fixed He just doesn't have that type of personality.

    I do appreciate everyone's help. I took some new pictures this weekend with the egg bar shoeing. Barefoot is not an option for him right now, my ground is very abrasive and that's one of the reasons I'm having the issues I am now....because I was stupid enough to allow him to go barefoot while healing from his hip/SI injury.

    Left front (I rasped away some hoof that was flaking away slightly)

    Left Solar shot

    Left heels. Both heels have a crack in them...not sure if its flaking away or he's cut himself.

    Right front

    Right solar

    Right heel-again with a crack in the heel
    Ok, I have not shod a horse for many years, but I don't like those kinds of shoes for those feet.
    I like the support at the bars, if it corresponds with the column above, but a straight bar behind, not that round shoe.
    I think that would compound how the horse moves, as it may "wobble" some from it, or walk funny to avoid that "bump on the log" feeling he may get from it and the pressure it may put on other parts of the hoof.

    Of course, you, your farrier and vet know best, but it just seems wrong and painful just looking at how the mechanics of that will wear.

    I wonder what the real experts here think.



  16. #36
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    I still think this horse just needs a much better trim job and a SIMPLER shoeing. It looks uncomfortable.... I would be lame, too, wearing those things! It's amazing he can keep them on.
    Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
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  17. #37
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    We've been talking about trying the Morrison rollers or the natural balance shoes again :/ This was what the vet had suggested. Said since he's showing some mild navicular changes (the increase in bone density) we should be shoeing him like a navicular horse.

    I am talking to another farrier that someone recommended, my guy is actually one of the "recommended" ones for rehab work. There's a few others in the area, but most aren't taking new clients.



  18. #38
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    I just think it looks like there is too much 'rehab' going on. His feet really don't seem like they need all that extra (EXPENSIVE!!) stuff.

    I will echo again that from my experience most vets are not qualified to instruct farriers. I would try to find a shoer that will take a more straightforward approach, get him in some well fitted regular shoes with a leather pad to protect his soles. His feet really aren't that bad from what I'm seeing.
    Founder & President, Dapplebay, Inc.
    Creative Director, Equestrian Culture Magazine
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  19. #39
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    I didn't look at the pics, because frankly, I'm not qualified, but I did want to share the story of a TB I had. He had insufficient sole depth (4-5mm on rads), which meant you could indent/move his soles with your fingernail. He also had tendon strain going on from a really bad shoe job. The biggest issue was long toe and underrun heels. Based on my limited experience and some fantastic advice I got from the farriers on this board, and my own research you have to address the underrun heels and bring back the toe (which it sounds like was done, but don't go crazy there) and all-in-all have a good, balanced trim done. Oh and in my horse's case, not use to small of a shoe and leave some heel support (I guess the previous farrier though using a small shoe would help him not pull them off with his hinds--ugh).

    He was in pour-in pads (not all the way down--think a partial fill--farrier was worried about too much pressure on his exteremly bruised soles) for only 5 weeks, and Morrissons glued on (he had no hoof wall to hold a nail) for two 5 week shoe cycles and then re-xrayed with over 12 mm sole depth. I found this amazing because what helped him was having a proper trim. Not the pour in (although they made him comfortable), the shoes, etc. but going to a farrier who really knew how to read x-rays and what to do.

    I almost cried when he shod him the first time and he went from being visibly lame to walking ok within a few hours.

    I also had good luck with msm causing hoof growth (he wasn't growing any hoof). I found that by accident. He was already on a hoof supplement, but I had added msm for joints and bam!

    And finally, durasole is good stuff.

    Ok, I'm done.

    Nope I'm not, I lied. I looked at your pictures. Those heels look crazy long and underruun. augh! But I'm not a farrier...
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  20. #40
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    This is a good article I found that helped me understand what needed to be done to allow the heels to grow the direction they need to:
    http://www.equisearch.com/horses_car...nderrun-heels/

    There are different ways to accomplish the same thing, but I would be afraid the eggbars improperly placed on an unbalanced foot might create more leverage and put more pressure on the heels.

    Jingles for your boy... I've gone through a number of farriers until I found one that understood my boys needs and addressed them. He also has a tendency towards long toes and underrun heels because of his conformation, but without the metabolic issues.
    Boyle Heights Kid 1998 OTTB Dark Bay Gelding
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