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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    When I was younger, in my 20's and early 30's, I was fairly smug about the decisions I made. I put time and effort and money into a college education and worked hard in my chosen profession. I made all the right decisions.

    And then things that were outside my control happened. I married a man that was wonderful, until he decided that he he didn't want to be married any more. He left me and our two year old child flat, without any financial support. He just simply didn't come home one night. We had a pretty good nest egg in savings, but he took it all with him. My savings helped finance his new life with his girl friend.

    I couldn't force him to be a man and pay child support. I couldn't force him to be a parent and help with child care after he left. I couldn't afford to pay the rent, day care and all other living expenses. I was eligible for food stamps and I sure used them.

    I owned a horse at the time, but it took almost four months to find a new home for him. I obviously couldn't afford board, so his asking price was the amount of board I owed at the time. Because of that commitment to the BO, I couldn't just give him away. The economy was fairly depressed back then, this was 1991, and the only people who wanted a cheap horse were the people who shouldn't have a cheap horse. It took a while to do right by everyone. During that period I owned a horse AND received food stamps.

    It is very easy to sit in judgement of other people and to say with absolute certainty what you would or wouldn't do, what you do or don't find acceptable. I know I was like that. It was all about the choices you made, right? That is the difference between the "smart" people and the "idiots". I know better now.

    Sometimes you can make the best choices in the world and still get kicked in the teeth. But I think you have to live through something like that before you realize how little control you have, and how horribly smug and self-satisfied you sound when you say that you have covered your bases and nothing like that can ever happen to you.

    You never know.
    Sheilah
    See, I'm with SHG on this. You hit a rough patch and decided to sell your horse when you couldn't afford him. To me that sounds like a responsible plan, and like you were doing what you could to get out of it.

    Maybe I should have been clearer in my original post. The people I know who are on food stamps and own horses refuse to sell their horses. They have also been on food stamps for 6+ months and make no effort to get off of food stamps.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy-Tails View Post
    It's none of the government's business what anyone owns. Even a horse. Even on food stamps. Said horse owners on food stamps can decide if they feel OK taking money from the government and having "luxurious" items, including a horse. Live and let live.
    Speaking of which. IIRC, you need to have very, very few assets before you qualify for food stamps. Yes, you get to keep your owned home but otherwise, no more than about $700?

    Full disclosure: I'm a tad bitter. I don't own a house because I know I can't afford that and never had a 20% downpayment of anything I'd want to live in near a city that would pay me enough to afford the cotton pickin' house. But I do have more than $700.

    Who owns a house and then rigs it up so that they don't have $700? If you did the whole house thing, didn't you also do IRAs and the rest?

    And if you do have a house but liquidated everything else to get so poor as to qualify for foodstamps, God love you. That must be a tough place to be.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsmom View Post
    It's the attitude that "I should let other people pay for my foodstamps, while I keep my luxury items (like a horse)", that got Obama elected and re-elected. It's that sense of entitlement and no shame.

    And it used to be that having an emergency savings was just part of being a responsible adult. And if someone is buying horses, luxury items etc, before having built up an emergency savings, and before purchasing health insurance, then they aren't being responsible. Stuff happens, and life can throw a monkey wrench into things. But failing to at least plan is just irresponsible. Failing to plan, and expecting the govt/taxpayers to bail you out is stupid, and why this country is in the financial shape we're in.
    I have to disagree with you on this. I'm a card carrying, flag waving democrat who supports Obama. All the people I'm thinking of in this thread are Romney supporters, some of then even volunteered on the Romney campaign, all while saying "i don't need to sell my horse, I qualify for food stamps so I might as well use them."

    I don't think this issue can really be divided by political affiliation.


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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred_Petra View Post
    the people I'm thinking of in this thread are Romney supporters, some of then even volunteered on the Romney campaign, all while saying "i don't need to sell my horse, I qualify for food stamps so I might as well use them."
    Sorry to veer off into politics land, but the phenomenon you point out is truly a wonder to me.

    How can you be jacked up about a robust social safety net and see Romney as your man?

    In all seriousness, can anyone explain?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swishy-Tails View Post
    I am a tax payer too, and personally I would rather my tax dollars go to horse owners that can't afford food than to the military. Also, it is none of the government's business how many children someone has. I would like to steer clear of communism.
    Communism has nothing to with this situation. Quiet the opposite. Taking money from those who earn it and giving it to those that haven't so we all have the "same amount of stuff" (except the ruling class of course) is communism.

    Expecting that you support your children on your own dime is not communism. You're welcome to have as many children as you like, but when you start expecting tax payers to pay for them that's where the feedback of not having any more children comes in. Having multiple children is expensive. This is why many people plan their families. Not to get derailed into a whole other topic because there's a lot to be said on it and it's not completely cut and dry.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred_Petra View Post
    I have to disagree with you on this. I'm a card carrying, flag waving democrat who supports Obama. All the people I'm thinking of in this thread are Romney supporters, some of then even volunteered on the Romney campaign, all while saying "i don't need to sell my horse, I qualify for food stamps so I might as well use them."

    I don't think this issue can really be divided by political affiliation.
    I voted for Romney. And I kind of agree with you. I can't speak to the exact situation you're talking about but I know elderly, so called conservatives, who try to liquidate assets (we're talking about people who have considerable assets) so they can qualify for medicaid for assisted living.

    It's hypocritical no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on. It's never okay unless it's you and yours right? Drives me crazy. I'm a fiscal conservative and socially liberal. If you have hundreds of thousands of dollars saved you need to be spending that on your senior care before applying medicaid not trying to game the system. (Note I'm talking about medicaid not medicare).


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by showhorsegallery View Post
    You seriously can not compare the two situations. Besides my point is not negated in any way by your statement. I am not in charge how federal dollars are doled out. I am not the state of Florida. I live and vote here but I alone do not shape the policies of the state.

    And for the record, I pay a plenty of taxes. We have a sales tax here in Florida instead of a state income tax.

    The real estate taxes aren't exactly chicken feed either.



  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    There is another side to the tax equation that escapes people. INCOME times the tax rate equals the tax. When you lower the tax rate, the money that would have gone to the FED is used to grow the INCOME number, grow the GDP. GDP is not a fixed number, it usually expands under a free market governent. Net, net the government usually recoups the initial lower tax base after the first two years.

    Just ask Clinton, he did it.
    So did JFK and Reagen



  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnie View Post
    The real estate taxes aren't exactly chicken feed either.
    Oh my god I know. I was looking forward to the only upside of depressed property values being lower property taxes. They just upped the millage rate. I did see a decrease because my condo lost nearly $100,000 in value (ouch!) but it would have been more if they hadn't increased the rate.


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  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by minnie View Post
    So did JFK and Reagen
    Also when people talk about a 70% top bracket they fail to remember the insane amount of deductions you could take which brought your effective rate to what the top rate currently is.

    My mom remembers when you could deduct your credit card interest from your taxable income. That was one of the deduction "loop-holes" they closed when they dropped the rates.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by showhorsegallery View Post
    It's hypocritical no matter what side of the political spectrum you're on. It's never okay unless it's you and yours right?
    You can't say exactly what you would do until you are actually in a situation and making the decisions. That is my whole point. You can say you have life covered, and mean it. But until you are there, and making those decisions, you just don't know what you would do. Perhaps if my horse had meant more to me at the time I would have tried to keep him? Who knows?

    The vast, vast majority of people using public assistance are people like me. I was not the exception, I was the rule. Believe me. I spent a large part of my life in waiting rooms, waiting for appointments with some stranger who was able to decide if I was poor enough to "deserve" help. During all that waiting you talk to the people sitting near you. Our stories were pretty similar. I had a better outcome than many because I did have an education and I was eventually able to move closer to family who could help me with day care. Not everyone is that lucky.

    It seems like such a waste of time to worry about (or even spend any time wondering about) people who receive public assistance and how they live their lives. The number of people who game the system are such a small part of the overall population using that system.

    Besides, where do you draw the line? If it isn't okay to own a horse and receive public assistance, is it okay to own a house pet while doing so? What about owning a house? Should public assistance only be available to those that have lost everything and are in homeless shelters?

    Rather than spend so much energy considering the "cheaters", why not put some effort into working on legislation in your state that helps make it easier for those on public assistance to lift themselves out of poverty? That would be time well spent.
    Sheilah


    4 members found this post helpful.

  12. #152
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    well said sheila.



  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by showhorsegallery View Post
    Taking money from those who earn it and giving it to those that haven't so we all have the "same amount of stuff" (except the ruling class of course) is communism.
    Sorry, but to say that someone who is on food stamps is getting access to the same amount of "stuff" as someone who isn't on food stamps is ridiculous. You have no idea. In 1991 I received $128 worth of food stamps for myself and my 2 year old son. Those food stamps NEVER lasted the whole month. I know I put my son to bed hungry many nights. I know I went to bed hungry.

    Look, being on public assistance isn't a walk in the park. It sucks. It isn't a free ride to Easy Street. It isn't a road paved with riches stolen from people "who worked for it". It is a dehumanizing, painful way to live.

    I wouldn't wish that existence on my worst enemy.
    Sheilah


    4 members found this post helpful.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    You can't say exactly what you would do until you are actually in a situation and making the decisions.
    Please, please give The Planners some credit. It serves everyone well when folks do things like sock away 6 months of living expenses, set up durable powers of attorney and the rest.

    I say this only because, among other things, I have worked hard to make a plan for my semi-retired money-pit of a horse. He has a DNR-type letter on file with my vet and the BO.

    Do I know how I will feel when I say "Yup, pull the plug on him"? No, but I can predict that it will generally suck. Nevertheless, because I have thought about it, spoken to people about it, and put the whole thing in writing, I am prepared to do the right thing, crappy and unpredictable feelings included.

    I don't think one's decisions in a future situation are completely unpredictable if you are honest with yourself.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    2 members found this post helpful.

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    Sorry, but to say that someone who is on food stamps is getting access to the same amount of "stuff" as someone who isn't on food stamps is ridiculous. You have no idea. In 1991 I received $128 worth of food stamps for myself and my 2 year old son. Those food stamps NEVER lasted the whole month. I know I put my son to bed hungry many nights. I know I went to bed hungry.

    Look, being on public assistance isn't a walk in the park. It sucks. It isn't a free ride to Easy Street. It isn't a road paved with riches stolen from people "who worked for it". It is a dehumanizing, painful way to live.

    I wouldn't wish that existence on my worst enemy.
    Sheilah
    No, I'm was talking about someone else complaining about other people complaining about people having additional children while on food stamps as being communism.

    Obviously someone on food stamps doesn't get the same amount of "stuff" as someone who is rich. But someone on food stamps, HUD housing, welfare, phone assistance, utility assistance, medicare and gets cash under the table that they don't report is starting to get really close to someone who is a working class Joe who isn't receiving help.


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  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by IdahoRider View Post
    You can't say exactly what you would do until you are actually in a situation and making the decisions. That is my whole point. You can say you have life covered, and mean it. But until you are there, and making those decisions, you just don't know what you would do. Perhaps if my horse had meant more to me at the time I would have tried to keep him? Who knows?

    The vast, vast majority of people using public assistance are people like me. I was not the exception, I was the rule. Believe me. I spent a large part of my life in waiting rooms, waiting for appointments with some stranger who was able to decide if I was poor enough to "deserve" help. During all that waiting you talk to the people sitting near you. Our stories were pretty similar. I had a better outcome than many because I did have an education and I was eventually able to move closer to family who could help me with day care. Not everyone is that lucky.

    It seems like such a waste of time to worry about (or even spend any time wondering about) people who receive public assistance and how they live their lives. The number of people who game the system are such a small part of the overall population using that system.

    Besides, where do you draw the line? If it isn't okay to own a horse and receive public assistance, is it okay to own a house pet while doing so? What about owning a house? Should public assistance only be available to those that have lost everything and are in homeless shelters?

    Rather than spend so much energy considering the "cheaters", why not put some effort into working on legislation in your state that helps make it easier for those on public assistance to lift themselves out of poverty? That would be time well spent.
    Sheilah
    How do you know the vast majority of people are like you? Where are the statistics? It seems like the people I personally encounter who are on some type of assistance program are frankly lazy or have done a poor job minding their financial house. I'm not saying you were. Your situation was a horrible one.

    But I have known many people who have been on some type of assistance; disability, food stamps, medicare, welfare and I know them well enough to be able to say black and white they made very poor choices and/or were lazy.

    There's my brother who just doesn't want to work and has everything handed to him. My parents recently cut him off. He's on foodstamps. I tried to hire him so he could get some money coming in and he refused the work.

    There's my old best friend who had three different kids by three different guys.
    She stole from her employers, drank and did drugs. She dropped out of college, got a DUI, smashed her car. She had every advantage and squandered it.

    There's a former employee who was unwilling to even fill out his timecard who sent me paperwork for his food stamps when I let him go. As his former employer I can attest to his laziness.

    There's a family member who is on disability put probably could find a job but get cash under the table from a secret part time job.

    Then there's the people I see in line at the Grocery store with fancy phones, designer hand bags, done nails, and driving nice cars that I can see paying with those EBT cards.

    I honestly can't think of one person I know on assistance who actually truly, desperately needs it. I'm sure there are people near me that do, but I just haven't encountered them or they keep it quiet about what type of assistance they're on.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  17. #157
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    I did not read all of the replies, so apologize if this has been said before.

    OUR SYSTEM IS MESSED UP! My family owns a Pawn Shop. Every single day, I see how messed up it is. I see people who are on full disability, food stamps etc come in carrying a 40 inch TV, driving a new Hummer, and dragging 5-6 kids with them. I see crack whores with filthy children trying to use welfare cards to buy jewelry they can trade for drugs. And I see parents selling every "luxury" item they own to support one or two kids because suddenly the $70k a year job was gone. And Veterans of US Armed Forces that can't get by month to month because they don't get enough assistance or assistance is late.
    In Maine, my parents struggle, and hubby and I often have to pay for their oil bill, auto repairs etc. My Dad has Parkinson's and can't dress and feed himself. My Mom makes $12 an hour. They don't qualify for ANY assistance! My little sister had a congenital heart defect. AND had brain damage from Encephalitis. Denied assistance multiple times. Guess when she was approved? One week after she died!

    The system is really a mess, and it has been that way for many years!

    I agree with all those who say horses are a luxury. However, I do not think that because someone who suddenly finds themselves in a huge financial mess, and needs temporary help, they should be forced to dispose of a horse.

    To those that say they don't want their tax dollars to pay for someone else's "luxury horse", please consider that these people who may need temporary help have may have put into the system for many years. And sometimes put in way more than they are asking back.
    I\'m not crazy. I\'m just a little unwell.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  18. #158
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    "Cheating" on gov assistance programs isn't a tiny minority problem. It's a huge financial fraud problem. Even if it's 90/10 of good vs bad...a 10% loss on fraud can and often does cripple and destroy businesses. I'm not sure many people are aware of exactly what 'most aren't cheating, so few cheat" actually means.

    The vastm vast, vast majority of shoppers do not and never will shoplift. Yet check the amount extra everything you purchase costs due to the "very few, tiny minority" who do shoplift have caused.

    If government funding suddenly received a 10% increase due to loss of cheaters...the amount would be staggering. Heck, if half the cheaters were to return the funds they fraudently took...a 5% increase is enormous.

    I think discussing this on a horse BB will tend to bring more emotional replies than fiscally mature ones. (absolutely NOT saying immature people...just not well developed financial maturity)

    A horse is not a dog. As has been stated. A dog lives in your home, dog food amount in nominal and inexpensive, etc. A horse often has to be boarded, feeding 25 lbs of food daily costs a bit more than a can or two of dog food. One is much less financial strain than the other.

    And we all adore our horses and greatly enjoy the time we spend with them. They often make us happier, lift our spirits. However...unless you get yours certified as a therapy animal then in the context of collecting government aid it is not a necessity. Even if it's emotionally difficult to do without the horse. If a person actually medically requires a horse to stay sane then there's more issues than collecting SNAP at hand.

    Of course a person can keep a car and home. Shelter and transportation. To say that people need to get rid of everything they own just to make mean other people happy is only an emotional response and not well considered.

    Someone who has hit an unforeseen snag qualifying and acccepting aid isn't a bad thing. And keeping a horse during that *short* time isn't a bad thing. However there are folks here saying there are plenty of people who work the various systems so that they CAN own a horse. People who could afford life in general without that aid but not also a horse. Or to make it easier to keep a horse. THAT is fraud. And no, it's not a "rarely ever happens" thing. I've run into plenty who will tell you they collect aid so they can have a horse. Reporting them often results in bupkis...proving someone is screwing the system isn't a cut and dried issue. It's like proving someone is committing WC fraud...

    And since I already figure this post will garner me plenty thumbs down...might as well add that I find it somewhat scary and very disheartening to see so many say they'd much rather see someone happily enjoying owning a horse they can't afford by defrauding the government rather than that person learning financial responsiblity.
    You jump in the saddle,
    Hold onto the bridle!
    Jump in the line!
    ...Belefonte


    4 members found this post helpful.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sobriska View Post
    I did not read all of the replies, so apologize if this has been said before.

    OUR SYSTEM IS MESSED UP! My family owns a Pawn Shop. Every single day, I see how messed up it is. I see people who are on full disability, food stamps etc come in carrying a 40 inch TV, driving a new Hummer, and dragging 5-6 kids with them. I see crack whores with filthy children trying to use welfare cards to buy jewelry they can trade for drugs. And I see parents selling every "luxury" item they own to support one or two kids because suddenly the $70k a year job was gone. And Veterans of US Armed Forces that can't get by month to month because they don't get enough assistance or assistance is late.
    In Maine, my parents struggle, and hubby and I often have to pay for their oil bill, auto repairs etc. My Dad has Parkinson's and can't dress and feed himself. My Mom makes $12 an hour. They don't qualify for ANY assistance! My little sister had a congenital heart defect. AND had brain damage from Encephalitis. Denied assistance multiple times. Guess when she was approved? One week after she died!

    The system is really a mess, and it has been that way for many years!

    I agree with all those who say horses are a luxury. However, I do not think that because someone who suddenly finds themselves in a huge financial mess, and needs temporary help, they should be forced to dispose of a horse.

    To those that say they don't want their tax dollars to pay for someone else's "luxury horse", please consider that these people who may need temporary help have may have put into the system for many years. And sometimes put in way more than they are asking back.
    Yes, exactly. There is something wrong with the system. If someone needs a helping hand for a few months I wouldn't begrudge them that. But if it doesn't look like you're going to be back on your feet soon, at that point you need to be selling your horse.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvp View Post
    He has a DNR-type letter on file with my vet and the BO.

    Do I know how I will feel when I say "Yup, pull the plug on him"?
    Okay, but what if you have a 7 year old horse that has no health or behavioral issues and your vet refuses to euthanize? There are a ton of vets out there that refuse to do "convenience euthanasias".

    Honestly, you can't look at your own, personal situation and apply it to everyone. There is way too much variation to do that. I believe 100% in being A Planner. Even though planning everything down to the nth degree didn't save me from calamity, I still believe in it and practice it wholeheartedly.

    But you have to realize that all the best planning in the world can't save you from shitty situations. It happens. And until it happens to you, you can't say with certainty what you would do.

    I am being honest when I say that nobody was as smug as I was in my younger years. Not only was I smug, I expressed it as condemnation of anyone who didn't plan as well as I did, or work as hard as I did. If there had been such a thing as an internet bulletin board back then, I would have been just as obnoxious about my opinion as anyone else.

    Life intruded and I learned the hard way that you just can't cover or prepare for every eventuality. There are unpredictable situations. If I had known my then husband was cheating on me, I would have taken steps to protect my son and myself before hand. But sometimes people lie really, really well.

    Catastrophic illness is another one of those situations that can take even the best laid plans and throw them back in your face. Death of a spouse. The list is really endless. In my very humble opinion, the only folks who think there are no unpredictable situations are those that just haven't lived long enough. I would be willing to bet the majority of those who swear they have it all covered are relatively young, under 35 years for sure. Not all of you, there is no accounting for simple inexperience, but the majority of you just haven't lived long enough to know how silly it sounds when you say these things.

    You know, some of these sayings are sayings because they are true, not because they look cool on a poster. Such as "Walk a mile in my shoes..." or "Never say never".
    Sheilah


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