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  1. #181
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsefaerie View Post

    I have seen decent horses stall at training level with their riders for years. THeir canters sucked and instead of going to second level lateral work to iron out the strength issues they just stayed "stuck".
    I understand how hard it is to believe that some are not all that interested in getting to GP, but the truth is that some just simply aren't. Not that they have no interest in progressing at all, but only that they really are much more interested in the journey, even if their journey is limited to the perfection of training level skills.

    Not that getting stuck at training or first or second is limited to those who are savoring the journey, as there are just as many, if not more, who are determined to get as close to the olympics as possible, yet are still stuck at the lower levels.



  2. #182
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajierene View Post
    I am personally against treats for most training. I prefer pressure and release and my personal experience has been that this type of training makes the training stick better.
    And mine is almost the opposite, but that may be because the behaviors I've trained using treats have a much larger reinforcement history than those I've trained using negative R (pressure/release).

    I've also read that behaviors that have been trained using positive R have to be changed/retrained using positive R (can't change them using negative R), and I think that's true. So if I inadvertently trained a behavior using positive R and then wanted to fix it, and it had a huge R history, then it would take just as much/more positive R to change it.

    The same is likely just as true of negatively reinforced behaviors.



  3. #183
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    Oct. 19, 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by kande04 View Post
    I've also read that behaviors that have been trained using positive R have to be changed/retrained using positive R (can't change them using negative R), and I think that's true. So if I inadvertently trained a behavior using positive R and then wanted to fix it, and it had a huge R history, then it would take just as much/more positive R to change it.

    The same is likely just as true of negatively reinforced behaviors.
    Something about that idea strikes me as wrong, unless we are getting into the idea of "tricks" again. Or perhaps it's dependent on how the positive reward is used. In my training using food rewards I am still putting pressure on, looking for the horse to respond in a certain direction, at which point the pressure is released, the horse is praised and the food reward given. So which am I using? Pressure/release or positive R? The horse has certainly learned that when the pressure releases he has gone in the right direction and will try it again when the pressure is applied the next time. And over time the horse's confidence has developed to the point he doesn't want the food reward for things he knows (even as we work further on refining and improving the response) - the release of pressure and praise is enough to keep him trying. He only wants the food reward in situations where he hasn't yet grasped the concept of what I'm asking for.

    Now if the person is just being passive until the horse performs the desired behaviour randomly and rewarding that, maybe that would be a behaviour that could only be changed by positive reward. But even that idea bothers me a bit because for any behaviour to be useful it has to be given in response to some kind of cue - so again I suppose it would depend on the cue used to get the response.



  4. #184
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedHorses View Post
    Now if the person is just being passive until the horse performs the desired behaviour randomly and rewarding that, maybe that would be a behaviour that could only be changed by positive reward. But even that idea bothers me a bit because for any behaviour to be useful it has to be given in response to some kind of cue - so again I suppose it would depend on the cue used to get the response.
    This is how clicker training works. First you get the horse to offer the behavior on his own with you just standing there waiting to click and treat, and THEN you put it on a cue.


    You do this by waiting until he is offering the behavior consistently on his own (for example, a horse being trained to pick up a towel will eventually start picking the towel up over and over again for his click and carrot), and then when he is on his way down to pick it up for the nth time you start saying, "Pick it up!" right before he actually closes his teeth and lifts, and then you click and treat. Then you gradually start saying "Pick it up" when he is two feet away still, and three feet away still, and with his head fully elevated still, and seeing if you still get the response from the cue.

    Then once it is ON the cue, you move on to NEVER rewarding it when the horse offers the behavior without the cue.


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  5. #185
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    Oct. 19, 2009
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    Ontario, Canada
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    What if the desired behaviour is a response to pressure? Do you click before or after releasing the pressure?



  6. #186
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    Jun. 7, 2006
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    If my understanding is correct, you click AND release the pressure immediately when the horse gives the response. If coordination and only having two arms means you have to choose between releasing the pressure first or clicking first, my instinct would be to release the pressure first and follow with the click as soon as humanly possible, but other people may have valid reasons for doing it other ways.

    So let's say you want to teach the horse to put his head down on cue.
    You have several options to use +R, pressure/release, or a combo of the two:

    1.) You could do this with +R only, by standing there and incrementally rewarding each "effort" where the horse happens to lower his head. Then, once you have him lowering his head repeatedly, you can put it on a cue.

    2.) You can "help" with a little pressure release.
    So you stand there and apply gentle pressure on the poll and wait, the second his head goes down even a hair you release pressure and click.

    3.) You can train him to touch a target, and then lower the target, when his head goes down following the target click and treat. Then put on a cue. (So this is +R "help" as opposed to pressure release "help.")

    4.) OR you can do JUST pressure/release, where you apply the poll pressure and his only reward is the release of that pressure.

    There are many roads to Rome.

    In my experience (and I am admittedly much newer at the clicker than I am at anything else) the combo of pressure release and +R is the most effective for the most horses.



  7. #187
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    Sep. 15, 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by meupatdoes View Post
    This is how clicker training works. First you get the horse to offer the behavior on his own with you just standing there waiting to click and treat, and THEN you put it on a cue.
    Or you can do it the way RedHorses does it, but then it's really hard to tell if the behavior was trained with -R, +R, or combination of the two.

    Insights into which it is can sometimes be had by increasing the pressure to see if you can get more. So if the pressure is a cue that was put onto a +R trained response the horse will likely give the same response to increasing pressure, because he'll interpret it as the same cue. Or he might not respond at all if he interprets it as a different cue, or punishment.

    If however, the behavior was trained with -R then increasing the pressure will usually get an increased response, because the horse knows that he needs to escape the pressure rather than just perform the trained behavior to which the cue has been associated.



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