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  1. #81
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    I support being able to administer therapeutic drugs to horses that are being shown but I think the conduct of some trainers begs for much tighter regulations. As a poster said above "be careful what you wish for".

    FEI rules prohibit the possession of needles and syringes in restricted areas. Do we really want to go that way? I would not be surprised if that is eventually what will happen.
    friend of bar*ka



  2. #82
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    Feb. 18, 2003
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    If this pony was in fact, getting a hock injection, why would they be getting it ready to show in few hours? Isn't it standard practice to allow the horse a few days rest after a hock injection?
    Go Ahead: This is a dare, not permission. Don't Do It!


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  3. #83
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    Jul. 10, 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by ynl063w View Post
    There is a big difference between sparing people the "dirty details" and providing people with false information; the latter is what you provided in your first post. Steroids are not proteins, which means they cannot be enzymes and therefore cannot possess enzymatic activity. When you said that depo and corticosteroids have similar enzymatic activity, you were giving out false information. You were not in any way sparing anyone the "dirty details".
    Posts like yours are like nails on a chalkboard to scientists, who do in fact prefer to use correct terminology in cases like these.
    I am so sorry you feel that way about internet forums. My haste in a two minute post has apparently offended you with the lack of a word or two, which was not my intention or representation of my knowledge. However, I think the point is made clear now to those who are curious about the matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by rustbreeches View Post
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis


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  4. #84
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Philadelphia PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by eclipse View Post
    If this pony was in fact, getting a hock injection, why would they be getting it ready to show in few hours? Isn't it standard practice to allow the horse a few days rest after a hock injection?
    IIRC, and now there have been several versions of the story, the shot it was allegedly receiving at Devon right before it died was Adequan.

    So now, as someone who regularly uses Adequan, I want to know-- what latent lung condition is out that that, when coupled with the regularly innocuous act of giving Adequan, could kill a horse?! Because whatever it is, I want my horses tested.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


    3 members found this post helpful.

  5. #85
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    Oct. 9, 2002
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    Shippensburg, PA
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    This makes me SICK. Shame on the USEF... obviously the treatment of our horses is not first priority to them.
    Erin and
    Instant Karma "Sunny", ShineDown "Liam"

    "You can't control the wind, but you can adjust the sails."


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  6. #86
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    Mar. 19, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    So now, as someone who regularly uses Adequan, I want to know-- what latent lung condition is out that that, when coupled with the regularly innocuous act of giving Adequan, could kill a horse?! Because whatever it is, I want my horses tested.
    I agree - my horse has respiratory issues and he gets Adequan. He had respiratory issues long before I got him and he started getting Adequan, but I'd really like to know if there is a connection or if the Adequan could make his respiratory issues worse.

    In the interest of "equine welfare" the USEF should clear this up.

    I'm really sorry I renewed my membership yesterday :- (
    Most people don't need a $35,000 horse. They need a $1,000 horse and $34,000 in lessons.

    "I don't have to be fair… . I'm an American With a Strong, Fact-Free Opinion." (stolen off Facebook)



  7. #87
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    I can't, in my lay experience, figure out how giving an IM injection of Adequan could exacerbate a lung condition resulting in almost instantaneous death. Which means the injection is either a big huge coincidence (and a strange one) or else I'm missing some lung condition that I'd like to know about. In fact, in a metabolic sense... I'm not understanding how ANYTHING given IM could cause as quick of a reaction as seemingly occured. And Adequan isn't given IV, only IM and IA?!

    Obviously we're all functioning on limited data. We don't know what the necropsy said, what the review/reports said, or even what Mandarino's position is vis-a-vis what was injected and when.We're all speculating because none of us have the benefit of the information that was at the hearing. But given the nature of this case, if there's a non-nefarious explanation for the death and it's something that could happen to other horses unexpectedly-- I wish the USEF would address that in a press release.

    I'd just like to know, for starters, what lung conditions can manifest in a totally normal horse one minute(who by accounts was out schooling and not in distress of any sort) and a dead one moments later with no warning?!
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/


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  8. #88
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    MA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Addison View Post

    FEI rules prohibit the possession of needles and syringes in restricted areas. Do we really want to go that way? I would not be surprised if that is eventually what will happen.
    That wouldn't bother me at all.
    It would still be entirely possible to administer drugs such as the bute mentioned above.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


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  9. #89
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    Aug. 20, 2004
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    Ghazzu…Agreed.
    friend of bar*ka


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  10. #90
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    Jun. 21, 2007
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    Beautiful Pacific Northwest
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    FYI - The Chronicle posted the press release on their FB page. People are voicing their opinions on the page, I did...

    I am very disappointed in USEF


    3 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Apr. 12, 2002
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    Former Long Islander now in the middle of the Great Lakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldhorseb View Post

    . Mandarino arranged for New Bolton to perform a full necropsy, which was carried out and reviewed by several respected veterinarians. They concluded that “Humble’s” death was likely caused by an underlying lung disease that had never been diagnosed. Several veterinarians opined that the results were not consistent with an acute drug reaction. There was no evidence on necropsy that an illicit substance was given or that an injection was administered incorrectly.

    .
    Instead of ruling that the pony died of undetermined causes immediatley following an injection of an undetermined substance(s) the cause of death was ruled as PROBABLY due to an un-diagnosed Lung condition . So what was that lung condition again?


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  12. #92
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    Sep. 30, 2010
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    SE PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by adlgel View Post
    I was the one who posted that and yes, it is true. Perhaps it was not legally required, given the way the lease was written, but certainly seems like the ethical or moral thing to do.
    And there is the problem.


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  13. #93
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    Aug. 19, 2012
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    PA
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    The whole "sudden exacerbation of a lung condition" claim makes no sense to me. Does this mysterious disease have a name? Are they referring to anaphylaxis, which can cause respiratory problems along with circulatory collapse?

    The fact that no one will name specifics (e.g. the pony was given a "joint treatment" and died of a "lung condition" ... rather than saying what the drug was or what allegedly killed him) just makes it seem that much more likely that something more sinister is being covered up.


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  14. #94
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    Jun. 19, 2001
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    Pacific NW
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    If the Adequan was injected into an artery, could it have caused a pulmonary embolism? I would think that there would be enough turbulance in the heart to mix the med into the blood to keep that from happening, unless there was a whole lot of it, or it was especially viscuous, or both.



  15. #95
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlphilli View Post
    Actually, Depo (medroxyprogesterone) and corticosteroids have similar enzymatic activity. This is dose and situation dependent.

    As I understand it, those "depos" are used to do very different things with respect to the D&M rules.

    Depo-medrol is used for intra-articular injections usually. Y'all can give that IV? Really?

    The other depo is the stuff given to mares to "balance" their hormones. Yeah, and it's given to geldings too. I think this drug is used to make them quiet.

    So the first is about soundness, but considered therapeutic since it doesn't quite chemically mask pain as does an NSAID.

    The second is about changing performance, upside the horse's head.

    JMO.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat



  16. #96
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    Jul. 31, 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Addison View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how many of you would support the USEF's adoption of FEI rules regarding drugs and medications at our rated competitions.
    The rules regarding performance or pain?

    I'll take teetotaling enforcement of the performance stuff. There's no good reason for these drugs in trained show horses. Keeping a li on osteoarthritis pain is a a legitimate pursuit within limits, IMO.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #97
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    Mar. 27, 2009
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    Upstate NY
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    Should these questions and concerns which are being raised and discussed here be addressed to USEF? It would seem to me if they received letters asking about the lack of clarity in their ruling, asking about the lack of information forthcoming from them about the situation, and about the poor reasoning, about the 'hole' in their rules etc, from many people, it might be something they would begin to address in the future.

    Will anyone be writing letters?
    Trainer's website - photos of my horse Airborne under About and Francesca Edwards also in media page 1

    http://www.patricianorciadressage.com/



  18. #98
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    Did the USEF actually comment on either the identity of injection being given or the "lung disease" as a probable cause of death?
    Because from what's cited above, it sounds as though that "information" came from [Mandarino]
    Last edited by Moderator 1; Nov. 10, 2012 at 02:25 PM. Reason: name calling
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  19. #99
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    Jan. 27, 2000
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    On Blue Run
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    The best answer to the question of what more USEF can/should do in a situation like this is to write a Rule Change Proposal.

    The FEI has one in place regarding the death of a competition horse on the grounds of a FEI sanctioned event. This might be one FEI rule worth cloning.



  20. #100
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    Aug. 16, 2012
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    USA
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    Another victory for drugging in Hunterland.

    If anyone had any fairy tale notions of the USEF wanting to clean up this mess, this should pretty well convince them otherwise.

    For God's sake, what is it going to take, an entire string of horses dropping dead at once? Apparently one isn't enough. Where is my throw up icon?


    5 members found this post helpful.

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