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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by MILOUTE55 View Post
    Because let's face it, we all knew from the first post that the point was not to calmly discuss an editorial decision but to stir old crap and make sure the few young people not aware of Barney's past would learn about it!
    Actually, that wasn't the impression that I got at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MILOUTE55 View Post
    It's true, many teenagers weren't aware of the story, it's been a while since it last came up and PV was named more than BW... Are those kids better off now that they read all the horror? Did they really have to know that this happened in their sport? Awful things are still happening today and will happen in the future; was it necessary to also show them horrible things that nobody can do anything about now?
    I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you on this one. I think it is vitally important that kinds today know EXACTLY what has happened in the past, specifically BECAUSE bad things still happen today, certainly not in spite of.

    *Jumping the gun to Hitler speak here, so be warned -- I am NOT comparing electrocuting horses to the murder of millions of people*

    The holocaust was horrific. Terrible things are still happening in the world today. Why would we NOT educate people about the holocaust because there are other awful things happening today??


    ETA: I'd also like to reiterate that I have no dog in this fight, but as I said in my first post, I agree that there was ONE SENTENCE that probably should have been left out of the article. That's all I'm saying.

    But to say that we shouldn't want our kids to know about what happened in the past? I think that's just crazy -- but actually has nothing to do with this thread, and that is what I'm talking about right now.


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  2. #62
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    There is a difference between unpopular and unseemly.


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  3. #63
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    I don't interpret MILOUETTE's post the same way as you do, OTM, but reasonable minds can differ. I think there's a fair amount of sarcasm in "maybe, just maybe you're wrong." That's not raising the possibility of Velvet being wrong but sarcasticly SAYING Velvet is wrong. And then the last sentence "maybe you should admit it..." "it's okay to be wrong" is essentially telling Velvet that her view is wrong because it's a minority view.

    I've made my point, so I'll bow out. But I hope people keep in mind on a day like today the value in free expression! And not just the value in free expression of the positions you agree with.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by AmmyByNature View Post
    I'm going to have to disagree strongly with you on this one. I think it is vitally important that kinds today know EXACTLY what has happened in the past, specifically BECAUSE bad things still happen today, certainly not in spite of.

    *Jumping the gun to Hitler speak here, so be warned -- I am NOT comparing electrocuting horses to the murder of millions of people*

    The holocaust was horrific. Terrible things are still happening in the world today. Why would we NOT educate people about the holocaust because there are other awful things happening today??
    I agree that it should not be swept under the rug. But for Pete's sake, targeting an article about McLain's success in the wake of the personal tragedy he's experiencing is not the time to do it.


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  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by over the moon View Post
    I agree that it should not be swept under the rug. But for Pete's sake, targeting an article about McLain's success in the wake of the personal tragedy he's experiencing is not the time to do it.
    Do you agree or disagree that the article would have been better if these words were left out:

    "despite being unable to witness most of McLain’s biggest triumphs"

    If those ten words had been left out, this thread wouldn't exist.


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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    You don't catch the distinction. Telling her your opinion is one thing. Telling her she SHOULD NOT EXPRESS HERS because its UNPOPULAR is something entirely different.



    In this post you do not simply state an opinion contrary to Velvet.

    First you tell Velvet that the thread shouldn't have been posted at all. It "wasn't [] appropriate."

    As justification why you cite the fact that 30 people didn't agree with Velvet's post.

    Then you try to goad Velvet into admitting it was a mistake to have posted at all.

    This is VERY DIFFERENT than simply posting an alternate view. That's pretty clearly suggesting that minority views be silenced.
    I might not be US native but I do know the distinction, all of my sentences start by "I think", and I use "maybe" or "should", making things my opinion as opposed to rude affirmations.
    I never once said "OP is wrong", which I agree would be a very inappropriate thing to say. I say "I believe OP is wrong", which I'm completely entitled to. Just like you are expressing your disagreement with me with your posts (and your thumbs down on mine... serioulsy??)

    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    It is also possible that your view of the entire situation is colored by the fact that you used to be employed by a company who sponsored McLain Ward and therefore you had a financial incentive, in additional to whatever person al incentive you might have had, to promote only "good PR" about McLain? Knowing im personally also means that you're not exactly a neutral bystander when it comes to what is said on the internet about him.

    Not that there's anything wrong with defending your clients and/or friends... but it's helpful to step back and realize that you may not have a truly neutral view of events as a result.

    We have a saying, as well, in the US, about what happens to people who ignore history...
    honestly, I don't think so. Because I would have no problem discussing the horror BW did if:
    a/ he hadn't died the week before
    b/ I thought it was a good idea for kids to learn about it

    Also, maybe you're right and I would have too much respect for McLain to engage in these discussions. And just so you know, I don't really know him that well, a few phone calls per year and I met him in person twice, we're facebook friends... I share that priviledge with over 2000 people so I don't think I can say I "know" him. But I do have admiration and respect for him.

    And just to set things straight: I had absolutely no financial incentive to spread or not spread good PR about CWD. I was an office person, I was paid a fixed salary and the sales or reputation of the company had absolutely no influence on my pay check.
    I'm a rider, who lived in the US and like to post on forums, and who happened to work for CWD and like my job. And yes I liked (and still like) to talk about saddles and I always felt free to say whatever I wanted.
    I think you've heard me say on several occasions that Antares have great customer service and that Delgrange makes superbly crafted saddles. Being a CWD employee didn't make me blind to the quality work of others, even if I thought our product and our customer service was better. I worked hard for to be able to proudly say that our customer service was great.

    I'm really not sure why over the years you always had to jump at my throat every time I said something... I guess you mustn't like me too much, which is fine also. We can't all get along.

    Nobody has a neutral view. What makes you so eager to make everyone aware of Barney's past (as your first post on this thread suggests)?
    Last edited by MILOUTE55; Nov. 6, 2012 at 01:08 PM. Reason: changed a sentence


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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by vxf111 View Post
    On a side note, I tend to think McLain isn't reading this thread or getting upset about what a bunch of "internet posters" think of his dad. And nothing's been said her that hasn't been said a million times before on other threads about the horse killers. So I have my doubts that McLain feels "kicked while he's down," to paraphrase.
    While I doubt that McLain is reading this, let's not forget that he did come on here a few months ago to clarify a less-than-gracefully-worded statement many of us took umbrage to, so it's not out of the question, although I sincerely hope not.
    Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian


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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by axl View Post
    While I doubt that McLain is reading this, let's not forget that he did come on here a few months ago to clarify a less-than-gracefully-worded statement many of us took umbrage to, so it's not out of the question, although I sincerely hope not.
    how right you are! I sincerely hope he doesn't read that thread, not now.
    And it's also one of the main reasons why I think this thread shouldn't exist.
    Now I also agree that letting it die is the solution and I haven't helped much with that


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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by axl View Post
    The "new norm" in journalism is to add a hyperlink to additional information that is pertinent to but a digression from the current topic. Ergo, the link to the obituary that clearly covered the topic in the second sentence of the article.
    Precisely. I thought that for the average reader, including a link to an article which explained any questions that arose would not only be useful information, but also an excellent way to leave the original article's intent intact without distraction. I trusted the reader to make the connection and click on the link.

    By the way, I know for a fact that McLain does indeed read threads pertaining to himself and his father.

    I really hope we can close the door on this with me accepting that some people weren't content with what I wrote. I'm fine with that.


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  10. #70
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    Free speech is a right, no doubt. It also comes with responsibility. It would also be really nice if every now and then it could come with a little compassion and humanity.
    I drink and I know things. That's what I do.


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  11. #71
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    Amen DMK!



  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK View Post
    Free speech is a right, no doubt. It also comes with responsibility. It would also be really nice if every now and then it could come with a little compassion and humanity.
    Indeed.

    But, free speech is NOT a right on a privately-owned forum. Just another thought.


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  13. #73
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    Wow...forest...trees...

    Where did I bash McLain???? Someone please point that out. Kicking him when he's down? In what way? Holy cow, some people just can't seem to get that it was about the article.

    Thanks vxf for defending free speech out here. Whether or not you agree with anything I've said, you see that people have the right to state their opinions. I think you also see that it was never just to bash Barney, nor to tear down McLain (still not sure how anyone gets that out of this).

    It was not about speaking ill about the dead. It was about speaking the truth and having the ARTICLE encompass the entire truth.

    And to those who love the link, you're wrong about that being enough to correct poor journalism. It's not.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by over the moon View Post
    I agree that it should not be swept under the rug. But for Pete's sake, targeting an article about McLain's success in the wake of the personal tragedy he's experiencing is not the time to do it.
    Then the author should NEVER HAVE BROUGHT UP the topic. I wasn't the one who brought up the fact that his dad could not attend any of his greatest successes. That was the journalist/author.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  15. #75
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    Velvet, you still don't get it do you?
    Since that seems to be the case and no amount of explanation, regarding good taste and common decency seems to be sinking in, I'll take my leave as well and hope this thread dies quickly.


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  16. #76
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    If it's poor taste or not decent then why in the world did the author allude to the fact? Isn't that poor taste?

    You people have a very strange sense of logic.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"


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  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    If it's poor taste or not decent then why in the world did the author allude to the fact? Isn't that poor taste?

    You people have a very strange sense of logic.
    Are you really unable to see the problem ?

    The lack of human kindness and decency was not exhibited in the article.
    I can't imagine how you can project that an article about a rider who was competing under difficult circumstances was in "poor taste".

    The poor taste was shown by you and your insistance in bringing up the past
    (which was alluded to by a link included in the article, but it seems that you would not be satisfied, unless the author included all the information about the LATE father of the RIDER whom the article was about, thus making the article about the father and not the rider) in your critique of an article about a man who won a Grand Prix under difficult circumstances.

    It is all well and good if you fancy yourself a literary critic. However (and mercifully, MOST people do understand this ) grief must be respected, no matter what your personal opinion of the deceased, the people that loved them are hurting. Honestly, save the criticism for an appropriate time.

    I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. Is it just the disconnect that some people feel between the internet and reality or are people really so clueless about the feelings of others?


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  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    If it's poor taste or not decent then why in the world did the author allude to the fact? Isn't that poor taste?

    You people have a very strange sense of logic.
    McLain alluded to it in one of his speeches. The author wanted to explain it without making the article about Barney Ward's past. That's all it was.



  19. #79
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    So I read this article online, I didn't know who Barney Ward was so after he was alluded to I typed his name into that little google search bar that is at the top of my browser.

    It's not like the information isn't freely available so I don't see why the author needs to write about such a dark event in an article where she was trying to write a story about a rider who suffering grief over the loss of his father managed to ride a wonderful jump off to leave his ride and his time unattainable to the rest of the riders.

    Well done McLain Ward on your win and I am sorry for your loss, I know no matter who they are or what they did losing parents is always going to be one of the worst moment in anyone's life.

    So yes, I think this thread is in bad taste.


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  20. #80
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    some people just like to keep stirring the pot. they need to get a life that they are proud of, and give up the one they have.
    Discipline is the Bridge between Dreams and Accomplishments


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