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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Mar. 11, 2007
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    Montana
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    I have a degree (however rusty) and needed my job to pay the bills but I was willing to make concessions that made me not seem like a bad risk to them I imagine. My income is the second income for our family and after having had some professional jobs I knew I would like this job more than any other. I brought a lot of experience that they needed due to their small selection locally and I hit it off with them personally. They asked me if I would stick around, if I would be looking for a "better" job and apparently they rightly believed me when I said I wouldn't be. They gave me a raise and minor little promotion almost immediately and are generous with my schedule and employee discount so it's well worth it to me to stay with the job-maybe they could see it from my side and know that it was going to work out for all of us.

    I've never dumbed my resume down with the degree but I sure have with the experience-I've had a LOT of jobs over the years and I know I look pretty sketchy to an employer. I've often been a SAHM pressed into service against her will.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Mar. 5, 2007
    Location
    Pontiac, MI
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    I work retail and admittedly we don't pay a ton, but we have a TERRIBLE time finding, hiring, and keeping good employees. It doesn't matter if they are high schoolers, recent college grads, SAHM going back to work, retired people looking for a little extra cash, whatever. We routinely hire 8-10 people at a time and generally 2 of them stick around for longer than 2 weeks. Some don't even show up to orientation. One left for her 15 min break and never came back or answered/returned our calls.

    The thing is that we generally only hire for part-time, where benefits are limited (if at all available - it takes 6 months for FT employees to get health benefits, but a year for PT employees) and there don't seem to be many "move up" positions available anymore. When I was hired into the company 12 years ago, I was hired in at PT, and took another PT job the same week. My company offered me FT a few days later, and a promotion and raise a few weeks later. That doesn't happen there anymore. There used to be several tiers of workers, now there are just managers and not-managers.

    I've also tried to find employment outside of my company. I did find another job and took it, only to get hoodwinked when I started there (promised full-time, told on 1st day they could only afford to give me part-time; possibly illegally hired as an independent contractor instead of a regular employee). I took a few months off and was luckily able to go back to my original job. I would love to be able to find something with better benefits/pay, but can't seem to, so I'm kind of stuck there.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2012
    Posts
    52

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    seriously, this is an interesting topic! I've conducted interviews in the US for many years and candidates never cease to amaze me!
    You take the time to explain what the job is, that it's just entry level and might not be too interesting, people jump up and down swearing that they are the perfect candidate for the job and that they only need to work. That really they never get bored anyways as long as they are busy... then when you've selected someone and said no to the other candidate they flake on you before even starting of quit after a week because "really it is not interesting"... hmmm, yeah I told you it wouldn't be, but you said you needed to work...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2008
    Posts
    2,870

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    I'm impressed by the sheer optimism on here. If you have a 22-26-year-old with a recent degree and a high degree of ambition, you have an employee who will believe that the lousy job you've offered her, and the 1998-level wage and the crap hours and horrible title are a Stepping-Stone Opportunity. That is the employee that virtually every employer wants - a moron. To be kinder, a naive and hopeful soul who will work herself to death for you in the belief that this is "paying your dues" and she will thereby earn herself a future. The trouble sets in when an employer wants someone with experience or higher degrees, and then realizes GASP - they also have greater expectations than "We'll beat your twice a day and let you sleep next to the copy machine on cold nights."

    In short, the reason that older workers have little interest in crappy jobs is because they know they're not going anywhere. Crappy jobs are the lottery tickets of the working world. Sure, you can buy one and dream. But don't plan your future on one.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2006
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    11,372

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    Agree with you Vacation, but if you are in a position where you need to feed yourself, it seems to me, you should take what you can and keep looking for better that way than take nothing and starve.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...


    2 members found this post helpful.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
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    11,372

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    vacation1, maybe you can afford to be picky while you currently have another job or while you're taking unemployment checks, or while you're letting the other income earner in the family pay all the bills. At some point the pride it has to goeth and you have to take a job to make ends meet. I'd rather be making 8 bucks an hour then zero bucks an hour.

    Holding out on some misguided sense of pride will end badly.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2012
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    52

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    Quote Originally Posted by vacation1 View Post

    In short, the reason that older workers have little interest in crappy jobs is because they know they're not going anywhere. Crappy jobs are the lottery tickets of the working world. Sure, you can buy one and dream. But don't plan your future on one.
    Agreed, but then they shouldn't apply for the job in the first place and definitely not come to the interview when the job details have been explained at length over the phone... let alone take the job from other candidates just to quit a few days later.


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  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,587

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    Quote Originally Posted by BuddyRoo View Post
    Agree with you Vacation, but if you are in a position where you need to feed yourself, it seems to me, you should take what you can and keep looking for better that way than take nothing and starve.
    Oh, they should take the job...but the employer shouldn't be the least bit surprised when they bail as soon as something better comes along. Also, when your best effort and going above and beyond doesn't get you anything other than "Hey, they work for free, pile more responsibility on them since they're doing it anyway" with no pay rise or other benefits, eventually you stop applying yourself.

    The employer I mentioned who paid 50 cents above state minimum and were insane about scheduling, with no raises other than if a state-mandated COLA raise happened (which is a few cents, usually)? They expected a minimum of a four-year college degree in a related subject and prior experience. And they always seemed astonished that they weren't every employee's number-one priority. At that point, Starbucks or McDonald's was a better choice-pay was roughly the same, but the benefits were better (ie existed) and there was a chance at promotion.

    I don't mind employers trying to keep costs down, but unless the employees have some sort of incentive to work towards, they're not going to be loyal. And demanding a high level of preparation and qualifications, but paying like an especially cheap fast-food place? That's just insulting. If having someone who spent a small fortunate on their education is THAT important, show some respect for that with the pay and benefits.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jun. 14, 2006
    Location
    VA
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    11,372

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    It's interesting. Since this OT forum opened up for Sandy, I've read a number of your posts and you seem very...well....angry! About EVERYTHING. I'm really sorry if you've had a rough time of it. But you mentioned in one post that you hold logic above all else. So, in your logical, rational mind....why would an employer pay more than they have to given the market, offer more than they have to in benefits given the market, or give a damn what your education is and what you feel you are worth? You apply for the job. You get it. You take it and do a good job, you take and do a bad job and get fired, or you don't take it.

    If you NEED a job, you take what you can get to feed yourself. If you just want to change jobs, you can be more picky. I don't really understand the LOGIC behind you thinking that an employer should care what you spent on an education. That's really not their problem. I spent 23kper year on my degree, others spent 8k. We got the same degree. I'm the idiot, right? If they suck as an employer, they suck and it will show with their retention.

    I'm not saying that if you do a good job and work hard that you shouldn't be rewarded. I'm just saying that the level of entitlement I see is alarming. It's competitive out there now. Lots of people need jobs.

    FWIW, I just did my part and created a new job opportunity in MI. It won't pay well as they intend to hire someone totally unqualified and young, but I guess it's a job. And I will still get income because they will be screwed since they didn't want to keep me on PT remotely. Their choice. Businesses will figure it out. But we can't expect any business to have our best interest as workers in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by danceronice View Post
    Oh, they should take the job...but the employer shouldn't be the least bit surprised when they bail as soon as something better comes along. Also, when your best effort and going above and beyond doesn't get you anything other than "Hey, they work for free, pile more responsibility on them since they're doing it anyway" with no pay rise or other benefits, eventually you stop applying yourself.

    The employer I mentioned who paid 50 cents above state minimum and were insane about scheduling, with no raises other than if a state-mandated COLA raise happened (which is a few cents, usually)? They expected a minimum of a four-year college degree in a related subject and prior experience. And they always seemed astonished that they weren't every employee's number-one priority. At that point, Starbucks or McDonald's was a better choice-pay was roughly the same, but the benefits were better (ie existed) and there was a chance at promotion.

    I don't mind employers trying to keep costs down, but unless the employees have some sort of incentive to work towards, they're not going to be loyal. And demanding a high level of preparation and qualifications, but paying like an especially cheap fast-food place? That's just insulting. If having someone who spent a small fortunate on their education is THAT important, show some respect for that with the pay and benefits.
    A good horseman doesn't have to tell anyone...the horse already knows.

    Might be a reason, never an excuse...



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2007
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    1,260

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    A college degree does not necessarily mean you have the skills that a particular employer is looking for. If you have the skills and a resume of proven accomplishment, that when you start getting the $$. The skills I mean are those that will help the company succeed: computer software (technical) skills, an ability to work in collaborative environment, giving credit to others, being pleasant to be around, showing up on time and staying late when needed, not complaining about time off when you don't even have a year's seniority, saying "yes" when people ask if you can do something. These skills are developed and do not automatically come with a degree.


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  11. #51
    Join Date
    Nov. 8, 2007
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    1,260

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    Oh, and forget the loyalty thing, except being loyal to your own career development. That doesn't mean be a pita, though. Just understand that the Company's interests and your interests may come to a parting of the ways.



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Nov. 13, 2007
    Location
    Burbank, California
    Posts
    721

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    I didn't work for a year and a half, and that with both being a licensed attorney and a licensed high school English teacher. That was so frustrating. I was getting shut out by more experienced candidates that were applying to the positions that said "4-5 years experience" and had 10+, and were willing to work for almost nothing.

    Finally I found a position at a very small firm, and I found them. I looked at all of the firms within a 20 minute drive of my house that did the type of law I knew how to do, and just blitzed them all with resumes. One bit, and here I am! It isn't ideal, but the pay is ok and it lets me pay to have 1 horse retired and 1 in training. Except she's lame for a minute (minor soft tissue injury, sharing a retirement pasture with my old man for the winter!), but still, it lets me do that.
    "Look, I'm trying not to test the durability of the arena with my face!" (Because only GM can do that.)


    1 members found this post helpful.

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2008
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    2,870

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    The misguided sense of pride is in taking a crappy job that will suck your energy and your time away from finding a decent job, just to avoid the appearance of taking government assistance, be it unemployment, disability or welfare. Why? What does $8 an hour even begin to do to give you a decent life? We live in a country which will not, in the final analysis, let you starve to death on the street unless you actively insist on it. That is, however, the ONLY moral position America takes on the fate of the worker, so why is it better to work for slave wages than to say screw it, the system is rigged and I'm going on welfare?


    2 members found this post helpful.

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2007
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    10,587

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    Logically, why should someone bother spending on an education or working hard, only to be paid the same as someone who slacked off? If you're going to pay less than Starbucks pays high-school age baristas, don't insist on trying to hire people who are professionals. If you want blue-collar minimum wagers, accept that you will not get anyone's best effort, nor will you be the priority. If you want someone who put serious professional effort into being prepared for your field, don't act like you're hiring a part-time burger flipper. Promote the deserving--don't use first-hired first-fired, pay people with better training more than those without (works in the culinary field--I started at a much higher rate here because I have a degree and flat-out said I wouldn't do it for their base rate and they were desperate for help, so they caved. Some employers act as if they're doing you a favor hiring you at what they might pay an unqualified high-school part timer. Non-profit sector is the worst for wanting high academic qualifications and not paying for it. I really do think in some cases there is this assumption you're a second income in a family.) Treat employees with more education like they're actually capable of telling their arse from their elbow, not like, again, you're training the high schooler. (I find this a much bigger problem with female supervisors than male. They seem incapable of assuming that the person they hired for their qualifications is capable of doing their job without constant hand-holding.)

    Now, in the current economy, which isn't getting any better right now, a person has to take whatever job they can get. But it doesn't mean they are going to like it, work particularly hard, or not drop it for a better offer. So if you're paying in single-digits but demanding qualifications and performance like you're hiring a CEO, you should probably have some AMAZING perks, or yes, you're going to lose people. And I would definitely advise kids against college now if they're not going to be something requiring a science doctorate--trade schools or just going right into the labor force will get them about the same money as getting a degree. I'm lucky, I have no debt, but I imagine for someone who owes a small fortune getting a degree, undergrad or grad, finding out that you'll be making the same as you would have if you'd just started flipping burgers at McDonald's is even more disheartening.

    If you can't afford to hire people who put a lot of time and money into preparing for your field, don't demand those qualifications. Hire anyone who responds to craigslist. If you're hiring professionals, treat them like professionals and that includes paying them like professionals. If you don't want to do that, don't expect loyalty or being high on the priority list. Employees aren't there to make you happy, they're there because they need money. If you reward people, they perform better. I have one ex-employer (I moved) for whom I will STILL drop everything, because he (male, no surprise) has demonstrated he will go above and beyond for me, or any of his employees. I've had only one other position with a larger organization where I felt as if the senior supervisors (again, mostly men, seeing a trend) paid reasonable wages and actually acknowledged that their hires were 1. not stupid and 2. worth consideration. Employers who DON'T treat employees as valuable shouldn't be surprised that the employees don't see them as anything other than a paycheck to be dropped when a bigger one comes along.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Oct. 24, 2012
    Posts
    52

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    danceronice, you're 100% right, although that's not exactly the topic.
    We were (or at least I was) talking about people who come to interviews and beg you to hire them, who have all kinds of arguments and great reasons why you shouldn't consider them overqualified and they are looking for a "no stress, no pressure" job, blablabla... and who quit after only a few days.

    You seem to think that companies "demand" overqualified people, but most of them don't. We just post a craigslit ad and overqualified people apply, that's different. Now do you suggest we don't even give a chance to someone just because they went to college and want an entry level position?
    I'm not talking of people getting no recognition after months of hard work or anything like that, and I don't think that was the topic.


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