Misty - I wasn't commenting on SH's passing on the front-end movement (I don't feel qualified to comment on that), I was commenting on his conformation being more likely to withstand the rigors of life in the sand box - those tendons & hooves looked fabulous for any horse, and much better than the many, many other stallions I saw in Germany (of any age). Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Adding my thoughts from a trip to Germany + many conversations with a few dressage friends - but, not a dressage breeder & not familiar with what the particular lines throw. Have seen enough to know I wouldn't throw a nice SH, Jazz, Florencio, Weltmeyer, or Johnson out of my barn, and I like to jump Mix in some TK, xx, or AA blood and I'd be even happier.
I am sure my answer will get the TB folks up in arms, but if breeding for top of sport in dressage or jumping, I would not line breed on a TB - even one as well regarded as Prince Thatch. My understanding is that he was a wonderful damsire, but he didn't leave stallion sons of note, which to me is an indication they (Hanoverian Verband) didn't want a prominence of his blood in the breeding population.
Also - with Prince Thatch twice in the pedigree in combination with Sandro Hit, I would wonder what kind of hindleg you would get in the foal.
SH does reliably pass on a fancy front end. But he is not known for good feet or legs. You need that from the mare.
Having seen Prince Thatch xx before he passed, I was in awe of his type, more that of a Trak than a TB. In retrospect, he reminded me very much of Secretariat in more ways than one. As a broodmare sire, they both are amazing.
PT has produced many succesful eventing horses with both athleticsm, bravery and gaits. He has even produced FEI GP winners(Piccolo for one)To add, the character is stellar.
The hind quarters are better than most any other TB in warmblood breeding to date. And the walks are super.
I personally like the 3/4 linebreeding. There are so many positive traits in PT that the cross intrigues me. The cross is far enough back that unless you get a throwback( and I would take that considering how much I like PT) the influence will be minmal, but more than just a 1x.
Our newly licensed stallion, Doctor Wendell MF is Don Principe/Sandro Hit/Don Gregory(here the double Donnerhall)/Hill Hawk XX( double TB). You can see his photos on my FB page or on Hilltopfarminc.com to see what the cross produced. Not too light, but modern.
Last edited by Marydell; Nov. 5, 2012 at 06:22 AM.
Reason: more info
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I think this is the OP's plan and I think it might be an awesome cross. Two thumbs up. PT was a very special TB stallion who died way too young. I think that he would have had much more influence on the top side of pedigrees if he had lived longer.
Originally Posted by RedMare01
Not sure if everyone's reading correctly...she's thinking about crossing a Prince Thatch grandson (Don Principe, from another thread?) on a Sandro Hit/Rouletto/Prince Thatch mare. PT is the line breeding, not SH. Personally, I think 3x4 line breeding is the way to do it if you're going to...far enough back to still give influence, and not close enough to worry about inbreeding.
Alexandra - I KNOW the horse is a warmblood, but even though it is a warmblood, it has more than 37% TB blood. Just because Prince Thatch did a 100 day test doesn't detract from the fact he was a TB. So I was just saying that the mare has lots of TB and that I would be careful (having seen a lot of SH offspring and having one myself) putting him on so much TB blood.
Originally Posted by alexandra
Geogia I am a bit confused:
I am not intending to breed SH on a TB mare.
The mare I have is SH - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx. As said the the Rouletto mare has loads of substance, is easy as a pie and has a good hindleg plus a good walk in the her damline. Rouletto is a Holstein stallion.
Another information people may not know: Prince Thatch did a 300day test at Adelheidsdorf/Celle. He finished third in the rideablity department. Before that he was in training on the local reacetrack and I know that they put inexperienced riders on him as they could be sure they would all come back in a full piece and would have fun.
I go back to read the articles and hope that some of the TB breeders that are more familiar with linebreeding will come to give their opinion on linebreeding as such and whether one needs to expect in higher percentages the traits of the doubled genes or not.
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Standing Gauguin du Cheval 9054, Prestige II TG, Gauguin's Impression, Gauguin's Brush and Weltfrieden TG
Could someone advice some good articles on it to me ?
And would this be a linebreeding:
Damsire of stallion: Prince Thatch xx
Sire of grand dam of chosen mare: Prince Thatch xx
What would one expect form this kind of cross ?
Chosen mare: Sandro Hit - Rouletto - Prince Thatch xx
I will answer your questions directly. Yes, it is linebreeding. I can't tell you what to expect because I don't know Prince Thatch XX. In Holstein we have books about our improvement sires that I can look to understand how they bred and stood. So when I linebreed, I know that I am increasing the chances that their genetics are coming out in the foal. In an ideal setting, having the linebred horse be in the 3rd, or 4rth gen, and both be in the same generation. You also like to have good sex balance (son of and daughter of) in the same generation. SO in your example, the PT XX is coming through in daughters. This is common as many WB breeders keep the half bred daughters for breeding. Now, if he (meaning Prince Thatch XX) is known for good daughters and you are looking for a breeding stock, then this is good. Calido is a good example of this. Cantus/Coriander/Roman. Cantus is out of a Roman mother, and so its Calido's Dam Baroness VII. Roman was known for making good mothers. Calido happens to be a pre-potent sire.
At the end of the day, look at pictures of your G.Dam by Prince Thatch XX and pictures of the Dam sire of the Stallion you are looking at. What you see in common between these horses may be the Prince Thatch XX contribution. If that contribution would be welcome on your mare, then all is well.
Last edited by RyTimMick; Dec. 17, 2012 at 09:50 AM.
All due respect but Her mare shows 37% blood on paper, and we don't breed paper. The 37% is potential contribution, not actual. Her very response demonstrates this. The Rouletto mare doesn't demonstrate much of this blood in her phenotype, even though her dam is a half TB. You breed with what you get, not what the paper says you should have gotten. In addition, not all TB's are hot so linebreeding to one, doesn't mean your offspring will be hot. For instance, if I had a spicey mare, I would be more concerned about linebreeding to Marlon XX then Ladykiller XX. Both are TB's, but different individuals. Ramzes was an anglo arab, but a great mind. You would actually get good minded offspring when linebreeding to him. So we can not generalize about her mare, or linebreeding to Prince Thatch XX, and breeding a SH/Rouletto/Prince Thatch XX mare is nothing like breeding a TB mare. Furthermore, her mare not only has Ramzes blood but is double Ramiro, who was known for good minds. So without even knowning the mare I would not be concerned about doubling up on Prince Thatch XX assuming his other attributes are not a concern.
Clarksdale, MS--the golden buckle on the cotton belt
Alexandra, would you be willing to put the proposed sire's and the dam's pedigree on a database like Sport Horse Show and Breed Database and create a hypothetical foal? http://sporthorse-data.com/ You'll have to register to add a pedigree, but thedatabase doesn't seem to do anything with the registration data. They have some interesting line and inbreeding Statistics that appear for hypomatings. webpedigrees.com also has good statistical information for the horses in their database, but I don't recall if they do hypomatings. With a hypomating, all of the mares, as well as the sires will show up and their percentages can also be calculated.
You'll also be adding a bit more TB in the engine room with Sandro Hit, who is tail male to Sacramento Song.
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