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  1. #181
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    I cannot force people to educate themselves or their opinions. Neither can you.

    Nor can you try and "assume" peoples intentions or try and add addendum to a "like" or "dislike" vote. Well, you can but we all know it's horse pucky and just trying to cover others opinions with what you want to see or hear
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  2. #182
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    My husband had this problem with a manufacturing plant in Baltimore. There were several transgender employees. Transgender men wanting to use the women's and transgender women wanting to use the men's. Interestingly enough, there were more men complaining about a woman wanting to use the men's than vice versa. They solved it with unisex, individual bathrooms.

    Personally, I don't care one way or the other. It's the human body. We're such a prudish country and yet, we're so focused on sexuality...it really doesn't make sense to me.
    Join the Clinton 2016 campaign...Hillary For America. https://www.hillaryclinton.com/


    5 members found this post helpful.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    Nor can you try and "assume" peoples intentions or try and add addendum to a "like" or "dislike" vote. Well, you can but we all know it's horse pucky and just trying to cover others opinions with what you want to see or hear
    uhhmmm, that would appear to be exactly what you are doing?
    You just can't logically come to any broad conclusion either way based on that thumbs up/down function.
    There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.(Churchill)


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #184
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    You know, reading the question in your poll, I think a lot of our disagreement comes down to how we view transgender people.

    To me, a transgender woman like Colleen IS a woman. Her genitals may be unusual, but whether they're different than mine because of minor differences like color and labia shape, or huge ones like the results of a botched surgery or a penis, I really don't care. If I'm not her doctor or her sexual partner, it has absolutely no impact on my life whatsoever. None.
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
    -Edward Hoagland


    10 members found this post helpful.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayside View Post
    You know, reading the question in your poll, I think a lot of our disagreement comes down to how we view transgender people.

    To me, a transgender woman like Colleen IS a woman. Her genitals may be unusual, but whether they're different than mine because of minor differences like color and labia shape, or huge ones like the results of a botched surgery or a penis, I really don't care. If I'm not her doctor or her sexual partner, it has absolutely no impact on my life whatsoever. None.
    I agree to a point. Her private life is absolutely hers to determine and control and more power to her.

    The problem is in a public shared space. May a gym owner provide same sex only locker rooms and then one for TG people or people who aren't bothered by TG's in transition? I honestly don't know what the laws are regarding the issue. In the issue being discussed, the school district worked out a solution for the students that seems adequate. However, I wonder for a small business owner of a gym if this conflict might affect business. Depending on the area of the country you live in it could increase or decrease membership.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  6. #186
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    Dec. 4, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by bambam View Post
    uhhmmm, that would appear to be exactly what you are doing?
    You just can't logically come to any broad conclusion either way based on that thumbs up/down function.
    All I'm saying is 75% "liked" my post and 25% "disliked" it. And, if the thumbs up/down thing truly meant nothing then no one would utilize it.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    So if I, SLW, a middle aged human in a female body (or for the sake of discussion could be a 25 year old perfect bodied female), decided I was a man and lived that way for 2 years, was not able to afford surgery to change my body; only a haircut and hormone shots, there would be no problem from Colleens supporters if I started using the men's locker room as long as the HS boys weren't in there? Right??

    I completely disagree with a non-surgical complete transgender person sharing a locker room with the destination sex for many of the thoughtful reason stated. It's not about pedophiles, it's about common civil decency and appropriateness. The expectation that someone else should bend their reality to accommodate someone else's wants is to deny reality.

    And personally, Colleen is wrong to compare her issue with the Civil Rights struggle. She can use the facility, all of it!
    I have a very hard time believing that you or anyone else who is not a transgendered person could put themselves through the unbelievable ordeal of hormone replacement for TWO YEARS (which, by the end of those two years, you can't undo what you've done) if they weren't 110% sure that they were trapped in the wrong body.

    If you went through 2 years, as a woman, of hormone replacement, you would have developed body hair, diminished breasts, more masculine facial characteristics, deepening of your voice, a broader chest, elongation of the clitoris, and - should you choose to work on it - a more masculine physique. But that still doesn't make you a man because you have stated you are a biological AND identifying woman. So you would not only be (presumably) absolutely horrified with what you did to your body, but you'd feel no more a man than when you started and be very uncomfortable in a men's locker room (I don't know you from Adam, but based on your statement, I'm assuming you'd prefer not to change in front of random members of the opposite sex for no reason).

    Coleen, however, IS a woman and thusly has EVERY right to be in a woman's locker room. Misaligned genitalia notwithstanding.
    Nine out of ten times, you'll get it wrong...but it's that tenth time that you get it right that makes all the difference.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #188
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    May. 21, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    All I'm saying is 75% "liked" my post and 25% "disliked" it. And, if the thumbs up/down thing truly meant nothing then no one would utilize it.
    My "thumbs up" for Colleen daring to use the facilities that she finds appropriate for her gender (despite knowing I'm sure that she is opening herself up for bullying from not only people in person, but whole hordes of anonymous folks on the internet) has absolutely zero relevance on my opinion of your opinion - or weather or not I agree with you (I don't).

    By all means, don't let facts or common sense get in the way of what you want to believe though!


    6 members found this post helpful.

  9. #189
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    Mar. 6, 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    All I'm saying is 75% "liked" my post and 25% "disliked" it. And, if the thumbs up/down thing truly meant nothing then no one would utilize it.
    75% appreciated your post and 25% did not appreciate your post. It is not a "like" button, this is not facebook. Appreciation /= agreement. I can appreciate your viewpoint and think your post presents some interesting points, while disagreeing with you wholeheartedly.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what
    lies with in us. - Emerson


    4 members found this post helpful.

  10. #190
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    Come back with your real name, hAlter. Your hiding and spouting off means nothing.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by twotrudoc View Post
    Come back with your real name, hAlter. Your hiding and spouting off means nothing.
    Told you on the other thread, this is the one I post under here. I mean I'm sure twutrudoc is your real name too right? Not sure how I'm "hiding" here ... I'm telling you my opinion just like you are sharing yours... as is everyone else on this thread.

    When you put words in my mouth (saying that my thumbs up means I agree with you when no, it does not) then yeah, I'm obviously gonna tell you that is false...


    6 members found this post helpful.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    However, I wonder for a small business owner of a gym if this conflict might affect business. Depending on the area of the country you live in it could increase or decrease membership.
    I think you're right, that that is a very real concern. Unfortunately (as is clearly apparent on this thread) not everyone is openminded and tolerant about this issue, and I can see where it could have serious repercussions for a small business owner, particularly in some parts of the country.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how TG individuals in transition would feel about having thier own locker rooms. I suspect that, being individuals, their feelings on that issue would vary.

    Personally, as I mentioned before, being the female parent of a male child, I'd be thrilled as heck if we frequented a facility that had an "Other" or "Unisex" or "TG Friendly" locker room that we could both use. As is, it really doesn't matter because I think the only locker rooms we use are at the pool which is within walking distance and only open in the summer, so we usually just walk there and back in our swimsuits. But if we say, used an indoor pool in the winter here, we'd have to change in a locker room before driving home.
    Last edited by Wayside; Nov. 3, 2012 at 02:31 PM. Reason: typo
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
    -Edward Hoagland



  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by hAlterHorse View Post
    Told you on the other thread, this is the one I post under here. I mean I'm sure twutrudoc is your real name too right? Not sure how I'm "hiding" here ... I'm telling you my opinion just like you are sharing yours... as is everyone else on this thread.

    When you put words in my mouth (saying that my thumbs up means I agree with you when no, it does not) then yeah, I'm obviously gonna tell you that is false...

    LOL!! Well, then you can just make anything you want mean anything your little heart thinks it should then.
    The Knotted Pony

    Proud and upstanding member of the Snort and Blow Clique.



  14. #194
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    Jul. 14, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punkie View Post
    I have a very hard time believing that you or anyone else who is not a transgendered person could put themselves through the unbelievable ordeal of hormone replacement for TWO YEARS (which, by the end of those two years, you can't undo what you've done) if they weren't 110% sure that they were trapped in the wrong body.

    If you went through 2 years, as a woman, of hormone replacement, you would have developed body hair, diminished breasts, more masculine facial characteristics, deepening of your voice, a broader chest, elongation of the clitoris, and - should you choose to work on it - a more masculine physique. But that still doesn't make you a man because you have stated you are a biological AND identifying woman. So you would not only be (presumably) absolutely horrified with what you did to your body, but you'd feel no more a man than when you started and be very uncomfortable in a men's locker room (I don't know you from Adam, but based on your statement, I'm assuming you'd prefer not to change in front of random members of the opposite sex for no reason).

    Coleen, however, IS a woman and thusly has EVERY right to be in a woman's locker room. Misaligned genitalia notwithstanding.
    Thank you for sharing the POV of what Colleen and other TG go through to reach their goal. This has nothing to do with the level of my modesty. It has everything to do with Colleen forcing me to bend my reality while she in the process of changing hers.

    The powers involved in this issue decided it was inappropriate for the HS students to share a dressing room with Colleen and they took an action to resolve the issue. So at this time, Washington state still wants minors to have the option of a traditional non-complicated locker room experience. That action has no negative effect on Colleen, she is still in the women's dressing room.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayside View Post
    I think you're right, that that is a very real concern. Unfortunately (as is clearly apparent on this thread) not everyone is openminded and tolerant about this issue, and I can see where it could have serious repercussions for a small business owner, particularly in some parts of the country.

    Honestly, I'm not sure how TG individuals in transition would feel about having thier own locker rooms. I suspect that, being individuals, their feelings on that issue would vary.

    Personally, as I mentioned before, being the female parent of a male child, I'd be thrilled as heck if we frequented a facility that had an "Other" or "Unisex" or "TG Friendly" locker room that we could both use. As is, it really doesn't matter because I think the only locker rooms we use are at the pool which is within walking distance and only open in the summer, so we usually just walk there and back in our swimsuits. But if we say, used an indoor pool in the winter here, we'd have to change in a locker room before driving home.
    So the feelings of a TG person trump the feelings of person who hasn't gone through TG? Why do we ask non-TG altered people to be open minded and tolerant and not ask the same of TG?

    If Colleen doesn't feel welcome or comfortable in the men's locker room as Punkie very wisely pointed out to me earlier, why does she think regular women would be comfortable with her until she is completely changed??

    I have no ill will towards Colleen or TG's. This is a sensitive area and the sensitivities must run both ways. Without it progress cannot be made.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #196
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    Dec. 31, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coanteen View Post
    I would be perfectly fine with you using the male locker room even when the HS boys were in there.
    Me too. Unfortunately, in todays world it could be dangerous for you since TG people are often attacked, especially by men. But I would have no problem with it.


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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    So the feelings of a TG person trump the feelings of person who hasn't gone through TG? Why do we ask non-TG altered people to be open minded and tolerant and not ask the same of TG?

    If Colleen doesn't feel welcome or comfortable in the men's locker room as Punkie very wisely pointed out to me earlier, why does she think regular women would be comfortable with her until she is completely changed??

    I have no ill will towards Colleen or TG's. This is a sensitive area and the sensitivities must run both ways. Without it progress cannot be made.
    I agree that it's a positive sign that we're even able to discuss issues like this openly.

    However, I think that both you and TG people have the right to determine your own gender identity, and you both have the right to use the facilities appropriate for your own gender. You also both have to cope with other people using those facilities whose bodies may be different from your own, in terms of a wide variety of factors - genital and otherwise. Neither of you should be able to tell the other to leave simply because you find the other person's genitals different or displeasing.

    And I don't think that means that anyone's feelings are being trumped. I don't believe that Colleen should be allowed to use the women's room because her feelings might be hurt in the men's room, I think she should be allowed to use the women's room because she's a woman.
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
    -Edward Hoagland


    5 members found this post helpful.

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayside View Post
    I agree that it's a positive sign that we're even able to discuss issues like this openly.

    I don't believe that Colleen should be allowed to use the women's room because her feelings might be hurt in the men's room, I think she should be allowed to use the women's room because she's a woman.
    I think this is the line in the sand as it relates to gym locker rooms. You see her as a woman. I see her as a man in transition. What would the TSA label her??

    Good discussion with a lot of meaningful insight.



  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    I think this is the line in the sand as it relates to gym locker rooms. You see her as a woman. I see her as a man in transition. What would the TSA label her??

    Good discussion with a lot of meaningful insight.
    The TSA would label her as a woman as long as that's what's on her ID: http://transgenderequality.wordpress...ans-travelers/
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn’t merely train him to be semi-human. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming part dog."
    -Edward Hoagland


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW View Post
    So the feelings of a TG person trump the feelings of person who hasn't gone through TG? Why do we ask non-TG altered people to be open minded and tolerant and not ask the same of TG?

    If Colleen doesn't feel welcome or comfortable in the men's locker room as Punkie very wisely pointed out to me earlier, why does she think regular women would be comfortable with her until she is completely changed??

    I have no ill will towards Colleen or TG's. This is a sensitive area and the sensitivities must run both ways. Without it progress cannot be made.
    What would you suggest? That she never leaves her home because she might make someone uncomfortable?

    But yes, I do think her rights "trump" your feeling of minor discomfort for 10 seconds by having to be in the same locker room with her. How are your rights being affected? They aren't. Maybe you aren't 100% comfortable, but I don't see how that compares to the rights of people being forced to use a separate "TG ONLY" locker room....same as "Whites Only" and "Coloreds".

    A friend of mine once told me of an uncomfortable locker room experience - where an stark naked old lady applied vaginal cream while striking up a conversation with my friend. She was pretty uncomfortable. Maybe we could make a separate "Vaginal Cream" locker room too.


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