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  1. #81
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    Nov. 1, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatwhitepony View Post
    The only realistic solution I see for this dangerous horse is to euthanize. I feel like I almost refuse to pass such a dangerous horse on to another person to most likely be injured by her. She technically is property of the rescue, who clearly is not so interested in finding her another home...at least so far as I know. All of my letters to the group have gotten no response. I can't see them agreeing to having her euthanized either because such a big stink was made about preserving her 'rare' bloodlines. Well, to me this is not so critical as her mother is still out there and she has siblings, none of which are insane as far as I am aware. SIGH...
    fatwhitepony,
    Thank you for your post.
    I am so sorry about what you are going thru. It does sound like your foster filly does need to be euthanized for the safety of everyone, including herself. Have done rescue for 14 years, I am well aware that there are many irresponsible rescues out there or rescues who can't face taking a life
    .
    My apologizes for coming across as "bossy", but I recommend sending a certified letter stating that you have tried to contact them multiple times regarding this filly. Explain that because she is a danger to herself and others, she needs to be euthanized. I would state that if she has not been removed from the property by a certain date, she will be euthanized. I would also call and leave a message saying the same thing. That way, they cannot come after you for euthanizing "their" horse (who has been essentially "abandoned" at your place).

    Bless your heart. It is a horrible decision to make, but given her behavior, it doesn't sound like there is another other reasonable alternative.
    Best wishes.



  2. #82
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    Nov. 1, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Loco weed is a problem here and some springs there are a few animals affected, mostly cattle, some horses, so we are very familiar with it.

    Locoed horses may go thru one fence, but they are so impaired they can't get very far very fast.
    In fact, if they attack you, as some may attack anything that moves, they are so uncoordinated you can step to the side and avoid them and if bad enough, they then fall down.
    Most stand there braced, shaking and wobbling like they can't figure which way is up.
    Not at all the picture you paint of a horse going and going and going.

    I would look for another type toxicity, if that is what your vet was thinking.
    Thanks Bluey. Didn't know that about locoweed. Definitely doesn't match her behavior. The day she arrived was totally frantic, whereas last Monday, she was more like the energizer bunny. The last fence held her at first and she kept cantering almost in place and then that fence slowly "gave" and she continued cantering that same steady pace through the fence. Very odd.
    Thanks to all of you and my wonderful friends, I am slowly coming to terms with this, although in the middle of the night, there are still moments of doubt and "what ifs".



  3. #83
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    Nov. 1, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu View Post
    "Vaccinosis" has not been shown to be a real entity.
    While vaccines certainly have adverse effects, I don't belive there is any valid evidence that rabies vaccine causes insanity.

    And *that* is BS, statistically speaking.
    Actually, the two leading vet immunologists in the world, Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz both believe in vaccinosis. Most vets will deny it exists because a high percentage of their income is from vaccines. There are a number of books available written by vets regarding this very subject.
    The "statistics" mean nothing, because they are based on vet reports. Most vets refuse to believe even overwhelming evidence that vaccines are the cause of tumors (many at the site of the vaccination), most cancers, auto-immune diseases and seizures are caused by vaccines. Having rescued so many dogs over the years, and talked to literally thousands of dog owners, there is no doubt in my mind regarding the connection. I have also talked to many dog owners whose dogs began having seizures less than 12 hours after being vaccinated, and their vets all denied that the vaccines were the cause of the seizures. One dog not only began having seizures, but also developed a fibrosarcoma at the site of the rabies vaccine. Her vet not only denied that the vaccine was responsible for either, but had scheduled an appointment for her dog to be vaccinated again. Vaccinating an unhealthy animal is malpractice and vets do it all the time. So again, the information is out there.

    Several years ago, a doodle rescue had 2/3 of their dogs living with auto-immune diseases. At the time, I had approximately the same number of dogs, none of whom had an auto-immune disease. The difference? They required their foster homes to vaccinate yearly, and I did minimal vaccines. Anecdotal evidence? Perhaps, but in conjunction with literally thousands of similar reports from pet owners, it is very powerful evidence and far more meaningful than "vet-reported" vaccine reactions.
    Last edited by Rescue broke; Nov. 4, 2012 at 07:37 PM.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  4. #84
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    Jun. 21, 2004
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    Central Florida
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    The last time I vac. my dog 2 yrs ago he acted like he was going to die. He was fine for about 2-3 after then he keep swallowing over and over and over... He was flaming hot to the touch and would yelp. Just yelp not from touching or anything.. VERY odd. Labored breathing he scared the shit out of me. I gave him 2 baby asprins because all vets were closed. He went to sleep and in the morning he was fine. Nobody knows what was wrong........
    *^*^*^
    Himmlische Traumpferde
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"



  5. #85
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    Apr. 25, 2008
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    OP, how did this filly even survive at her breeder's? I can't help but wonder how in the world she didn't manage to kill herself there.
    Quote Originally Posted by alicen View Post
    We have no intentions of tarring and feathering anyone: this is now a thread about dipping Ryan Reynolds in chocolate.



  6. #86
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    Nov. 1, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolinadreamin' View Post
    OP, how did this filly even survive at her breeder's? I can't help but wonder how in the world she didn't manage to kill herself there.
    I don't know how she survived. That is what makes this even more bizarre. I do have photos of her in a pasture as a foal at the side on her dam. The videos I received were of her in a completely enclosed indoor arena and when I asked for footage of her at the walk and for cantering footage outside in a larger area, I was sent no footage of her at the walk and more footage of her taken inside the small indoor arena. It never occurred to me that she might go through fences. I just wanted to see her with more room to canter, as her canter looked a little choppy in the indoor. Could there be a totally innocent explanation for her to not provide pasture or ring footage? Yes. But it is a little suspicious in light of the fact that the filly could not be contained in fences almost from the moment she arrived at my place.
    That is why I vacillate between thinking the breeder knew what was wrong with the filly, and thinking that there might be a 1 in a million chance the filly was "normal" until the morning of being loaded into the trailer. Since the transporters were very clear that she was insane before they ever led her out, I don't see why they would have made any of this up. She did arrive with a minor cut on her right hind cannon bone, but no other obvious wounds.
    Could the filly have been stalled constantly while in Indiana to keep her from blasting through fences? Yes. Certainly her hooves were not those of a horse who had spent a lot of time in the pasture. The were very narrow, with almost but not quite, contracted heels. The owner/breeders behavior was very odd when told of what the filly did. Not once did she ask about the injuries or how the filly was doing. Instead, she was focused on blaming the transporters and absolving herself of liability. When she returned the money, she sent an unpleasant email and told me to never contact her again.

    If I were her, my concern would have been for the filly. If the horse I had bred and raised had never acted that way before, I would have been asking a lot of questions and trying to figure out what had happened. She did not seem the least bit interested in "why" and again, kept blaming the transporters. I would have been checking in to see how the filly was doing, not shutting off communication completely.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  7. #87
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    Nov. 1, 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nootka View Post
    The last time I vac. my dog 2 yrs ago he acted like he was going to die. He was fine for about 2-3 after then he keep swallowing over and over and over... He was flaming hot to the touch and would yelp. Just yelp not from touching or anything.. VERY odd. Labored breathing he scared the shit out of me. I gave him 2 baby asprins because all vets were closed. He went to sleep and in the morning he was fine. Nobody knows what was wrong........
    Hi Nootka,
    Sorry that your dog reacted that way. Vaccine reactions usually worsen with subsequent injections. You can get a "letter of exemption" for the rabies vaccine from your vet and the other vaccines are not required by law. Since most dogs remain protected for their lifetime from just their puppy vaccines, your dog should be fine.
    Good luck!


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #88
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    TX
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue broke View Post
    Hi Nootka,
    Sorry that your dog reacted that way. Vaccine reactions usually worsen with subsequent injections. You can get a "letter of exemption" for the rabies vaccine from your vet and the other vaccines are not required by law. Since most dogs remain protected for their lifetime from just their puppy vaccines, your dog should be fine.
    Good luck!
    Not really, that is not how vaccines work.

    SOME vaccines give a lifetime protection, if they happen to be effective, which not all are 100%, because of the immune status of the individual can be inadequate to respond properly to be vaccinated.

    MANY vaccines only give protection from a few months to several years.

    Some vaccines that are important for the health of whole groups are mandated by laws and those laws may be different in different areas of the country.
    Rabies is one of those, so don't count on what you think you know, ask the right people what protocol there is in your area for rabies.

    As for reactions to vaccines, most are to the adjuvants in the vaccines, not to the part that gives protection from that disease/s itself.
    That is why some will have a reaction to one brand of vaccine, but not another.

    Somehow, this one poster is sounding more and more like a twin to a certain other poster we had a while ago, name started with a C.


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #89
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    Sep. 26, 2008
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    I have heard of horses going through fences not as many as that but I do believe you. The other day I went out to see my horse and saw that half a metal pole a fence was down literally flat to the ground and broke into a sweat thinking nothing could survive that mess. Horse that did it had one small scrap on its leg. The section of fence down was 15 meters of buckled mess.



  10. #90
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    May. 21, 2008
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    Sonoma County, California
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    Wow. What a tough deal for you OP. Heartache all around.

    I had a sort of similar experience. Long story short, I took on a young TB gelding who had developed severe headshaking syndrome almost immediately following a heavy round of vaccinations (not sure if there is a link, but made me wonder).

    Owner boarded the gelding with me. I took him on when she decided to euthanize him because he was no longer rideable. He did well with me and I was riding him and treating the headshaking. But there was something very off about him. One day, in the vineyard next to me, they placed reflective tape to scare off birds. He went NUTS. Completely raging nuts. Blew through multiple heavy duty fences. Savaged other horses. Got impaled on the ONE t-post left on my property and kept running. Could not stop him, catch him, get near him. We were so desperate, I asked my husband to get his rifle out so we could try to bring the horse down before he got out to the highway or killed one of our horses. It was beyond horrifying.

    Finally was able to run the horse into our barn, where we ran him into a stall and bolted the door. The horse wigged out, throwing himself over, completely unhinged, to the point where the entire 6 stall barn was swaying. Figured he'd destroy part of it. Vet on his way, husband has rifle in hand, I'm screaming at him to shoot the horse, but he was scared to try. Finally vet arrives, somehow we are able to hold down the horse long enough to pump him with sedation and get him outside the barn, where he was promptly euthanized. He was literally cut to ribbons, plus had a huge chest wound. And he had still kept running.

    Vet had only seen something like this once prior in career, but he felt it was probably something neuro, or brain tumor, etc. I regret we did not necropsy this horse.

    I am very sorry for your loss. You did the right --- and only --- thing.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #91
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    Nov. 20, 2008
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    NJ
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    Just wondering if the horse was a confirmed rearer if she did some permanent damage from one of her rearing incidents.

    As for vaccines, I am very wary of anyone who suggests not vaccinating. Diseases have been eradicated through proper vaccination protocols. Is there a possibility of reactions from vaccinations? Certainly. One needs to look that the benefit outweighs the risk. If an animal is immunocompromised, there may be a different protocol to use based on the individual situation or perhaps not vaccinating at all.

    I think more people here are suspect of holistic vets and magic pills than justified euthanasia by gunshot.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #92
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    Apr. 4, 2006
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    An American Living In Ireland
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    Many moons ago when I was first learning to gallop, we had a horse on the farm that was somewhat like this. She dumped every rider and ran in and through things. She was seen by an eye specialist and what they think was happening is that her brain didn't process what she was seeing as with normal horses. She could be ok but then she just lost it with crazy eyes as you describe. Flight was always going to take over. She was put down as she was a danger to herself and everyone else. Very well bred, but no point in continuing.

    You did the absolute right thing. Do not best yourself up.

    Terri
    COTH, keeping popcorn growers in business for years.

    "I need your grace to remind me to find my own." Snow Patrol-Chasing Cars. This line reminds me why I have horses.



  13. #93
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rescue broke View Post
    Actually, the two leading vet immunologists in the world, Dr. Dodd and Dr. Schultz both believe in vaccinosis.
    Are you referring to Dr. Gloria Dodd?
    If so, I hardly think that she is regarded as "one of the two leading vet immunologists in the world".

    And while Dr. Schultz feels that many dogs and cats are over vaccinated (as do many veterinarians), I have not seen direct quotes from him indicating a belief in "vaccinosis".




    The "statistics" mean nothing, because they are based on vet reports.
    Whereas your assertions are based on what? Communications from angels?

    Most vets refuse to believe even overwhelming evidence that vaccines are the cause of tumors (many at the site of the vaccination)
    BS. It is very well accepted that vaccine associated fibrosarcomas exist, and vaccine protocls have been altered as a result of this. And guess what?
    That information is a direct result of reports from veterinarians.



    most cancers, auto-immune diseases and seizures are caused by vaccines.
    Any rational evidence of this? O is this just another belief of yours?

    Having rescued so many dogs over the years,
    Because rescuing dogs conveys some sort of epidemiological precisience?


    Several years ago, a doodle rescue had 2/3 of their dogs living with auto-immune diseases. At the time, I had approximately the same number of dogs, none of whom had an auto-immune disease. The difference? They required their foster homes to vaccinate yearly, and I did minimal vaccines. Anecdotal evidence? Perhaps, but in conjunction with literally thousands of similar reports from pet owners, it is very powerful evidence and far more meaningful than "vet-reported" vaccine reactions.
    Riight.
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  14. #94
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Philadelphia PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by artisticgold View Post
    I wonder if she had vision issues and/or neurological issues?
    Agree. I wonder if maybe she had some sort of tumor of something in her brain and it was causing the behavior. I know it seems unlikely, but this sounds like a freak thing. Or could she have hit her head on the trailer and have caused some sort of brain damage? Or had a stroke??

    You did the right thing. What kind of life could she have ever had ANYWHERE??
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  15. #95
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    Oct. 10, 2007
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    Op I think you did the right thing like I said before. I just have to comment on the vaccine stuff. I was a vet tech for many years before I had my child and am now a stay at home mom. Over the years I have seen more parvovirus and distemper in puppies and some dogs then any vaccine reactions. Yes, there were a few over the years they may get a lump in the injection site but goes down with time, there were a few that may not feel well afterwards such as being tired. I saw more sick animals from no vaccines then anything. I worked at one of the largest and busiest vet clinics in the county. So many shots were being done with little reactions. An estimate, we probably did 6000 shots a year with maybe 3 or 4 with reactions. Yet we would see probably about 200 parvovirus cases a year. Distemper was less but we still saw it. Same with cats. Many leukemia positive cats but small reaction issues. I just can't see that its a major issue. It's like the parents that say shots are bad for their kids and don't want to have them vaccinated. It's for their safety, companies are not out to kill their clients.
    Horses aren't our whole life, but makes our life whole


    3 members found this post helpful.

  16. #96
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    Oct. 6, 2002
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    Agree rabicon. And boy, for pain and suffering-- it's hard to beat distemper as a means of death
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/



  17. #97
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    Oct. 26, 2010
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    This post made me think of a horse, not mine, who when tied up, would try to pull the barn down. Then he would go nuts now and again, crazy eyes and all. Anywho, when the necropsy was done, the vet found a tumor of some sort on the brain stem I think. I don't remember all details but it was the base of the brain.

    Also, I've seen older horses who were fine with all the buckets and hay bales and whatnot around a barn, suddenly wake up one day and be afraid. Some vet told me it's possible for the geezer to have had a stroke of some sort, just like old folks.

    And about the eyesight, I've and had horses who weirded out at shadows at the least to full blown bug-eyed, blowing, standing on tiptoe like a statue. Somehow I came to the conclusion it was eyesight. One mare I had, she was actually blind in her left eye. Looked totally normal but blind as a bat. A 'trainer' had flipped her at some point.

    So, there are some ideas there, don't know if they will help.
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.



  18. #98
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    You're absolutely sure you received the right filly??
    GR24's Musing #18 - More a reminder than a muse, on the first of the month, do your boob check for any lumps or differences.



  19. #99
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    May. 4, 2003
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    Canada
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    I've not read all the threads, but the part where the OP said the vets would not come out and recommended the humane killer - just wanted to add that in these parts there is a company that is very well respected, they come to your farm, do what they have to, remove the body and it is all done very quickly, cleanly, on time and professionally. This company got an award from Horse Council for its business of doing what has to be done when it has to be done.

    I'd have no worries about using them, and hope the OP does not beat herself up on this issue. No fun.

    And the breeder is a pile of crap (is there a new emoticon for this?)
    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique



  20. #100
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    Aug. 11, 2002
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    Of course it's pointless because there isn't going to be a necropsy, but my best guess: hepatic encephalopathy. Severe neurological problems caused by advanced liver disease/malfunction. Aggression, violent behavior, confusion, pacing, visual problems, etc. can be the first signs of this (of course there is a broad spectrum of clinical manifestations and some horses show sleepiness, lack of coordination, etc. first, so it's pretty varied). Intermittent blindness is a known clinical finding -- which would explain the running into fences (she may have not seen them at times). The Merck Manual even warns that horses with HE can be unpredictably dangerous and/or injurious with handlers. In any event, the underlying liver disease can be from any manner of causes (congenital, trauma, toxicity, etc. etc.). The filly may have been fine for most of her life and only recently started showing symptoms -- who knows.

    I think you made the right call on the euthanasia, OP.



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