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  1. #1
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    Default Ivermectin and dog mange

    I seem to recall, and could be completely wrong, that it is possible to treat demodectic mange in dogs by external application of Ivermectin.

    Is this correct, or am I dreaming?

    If it is possible, how would one go about it?

    I've been googling and use of ivermectin as an oral or injectable is common, but not FDA approved for both kinds of mange. Dosage seems to be from 300 micrograms to 600 mcg per kilogram daily. Isn't that 3-6 milligrams per kilo?
    Last edited by vineyridge; Feb. 14, 2010 at 02:18 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  2. #2
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    Default

    Ivermectin can be used topically to treat demodectic mange. http://www.boston-terriers.com/demodex.htm It does have to be a pour-on ivermectin solution, which is commonly marketed for treating cattle. 300-600 mcg/kg does NOT equal 3-6 mg/kg; it equals 0.3-0.6 mg/kg.

    Standard cautions and restrictions for using ivermectin in dogs apply for the pour-on: if the dog is a breed to which you would not give ivermectin orally (i.e., herding breeds), you should not use the pour-on either.



  3. #3
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    Default Whoa !!

    ???? I thought there was a thread about wormer med= ivermectin being highly poisionous to dogs -???????????like especially border collies and Aussies????
    Zu Zu Bailey " IT"S A WONDERFUL LIFE !"



  4. #4
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    Default

    From what I've read, Ivermectin can pass the blood/brain barrier in the collie breeds and is, therefore, very dangerous for them.

    This dog is an adolescent pit bull who has been dumped. She has recently been spayed, because she still has her stitches and she also has classic signs of demodex. Which may or may not have been brought on by the spay. The demodex may cure itself by itself, but it is pretty widespread at the moment. If cattle pour on will do it, then I'd rather try that than months of vet visits for amitraz treatment.

    Thanks for the information. I do appreciate it.

    So what does this (400-600 µg/kg) convert to in something that can be measured with a standard injection syringe?
    Last edited by vineyridge; Feb. 14, 2010 at 05:36 PM.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
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  5. #5
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    Default

    Zu Zu - are you perhaps thinking of the thread I started about my dog?

    If so, he ingested a tremendous amount of wormer - I had just dewormed a horse that weighs around 1500-1700 lbs. I don't know how much the dog ate but it was enough to almost kill him. The dog weighs about 70-75 lbs.

    Ivermectin is safe in most animals at the proper dosage - but you're right about some herding breeds being unable to take it.

    My dog made it - barely. We got him to the ER in time- he was already blind, ataxic, burning up and he started convulsing soon after we arrived. I think his vision is permanently damaged.

    Using it for mange is common - hunt clubs use it to treat wild foxes affected with mange - so I think Vineyridge will be ok if she uses it properly. It's also in dog de-wormers and heartworm medication, Just be super careful with the dosage - double check with the vet. And get a good weight on the dog.

    Anyway - I figured folks knew that ivermectin toxicity is often fatal in dogs - I'm certainly aware of it but my dog was pretty sneaky and I just didn't see what he'd done.



    Quote Originally Posted by Zu Zu View Post
    ???? I thought there was a thread about wormer med= ivermectin being highly poisionous to dogs -???????????like especially border collies and Aussies????



  6. #6
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    Default

    To treat Demodex you need to give ivermectin orally once daily for 2-3 consecutive negative skin scrapings, done 3-4 weeks apart. Yes, orally and daily, not topically, not weekly, daily.NEVER EVER USE ON A BREED OF DOG THAT HERDS SHEEP, unless you get the MDR-1 gene test. A medication out there called Promeris which active ingredient Amitraz, is being toted for use in Demodex as well. You could not pay me to ever use that drug EVER! In many eyes this medication should be completely off the market! It is the same active ingredient for the mite dip Mitaban.

    If a pet is not able to handle oral ivermectin... you can also use
    Milbemycin oxime, which is Interceptor heartworm prevention, again DAILY, for 2-3 consecutive negative skin scrapings done 3-4 weeks apart.

    Of course this is generalized, juvenile onset demodecosis. If it is a focal area, most will resolve on it's on. If an older pet, 6 yrs lets say or older, is diagnosed with demodex, look for an underlying cause... like cancer.

    idlemoon



  7. #7
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    Default

    Looks like ivermectin pour-on tends to be 5mg/mL, so 400-600mcg/kg would convert to 0.08-0.12 mL/kg. However, the recommended dose for the pour-on is 1500 mcg/kg, which converts to 0.3 mL/kg.

    Before going ahead with the pour-on, you may want to read this paragraph from the link that I posted:
    The therapeutical potential of the 0.5% alcohol-based pour-on formulation of ivermectin (Ivomec pour on for cattle, Merial Canada Inc., Baie d'Urfee, Quebec, Canada) for cattle in the treatment of chronic CGD has been evaluated in a recent study because of its presumed longer residual effect compared with that of orally administered ivermectin in dogs. Pour-on ivermectin was applied topically along the dorsal midline at 1500 µg/kg (0.3 mL/kg) three times per week for up to 6 months. Although all dogs had a substantial reduction in the severity of clinical signs and in the number of D. canis mites found on skin scrapings, only 1 of 12 (7%) dogs was cured. The treatment efficacy of the topical formulation may have been negatively affected by the fact that only 7 of 12 dogs completed the 6-month trial. In addition, it is possible that an increased frequency of administration (i.e., 1500 µg/kg every 24 hours) may be more effective. This would render the treatment less practical and similar in cost to the more convenient daily oral ivermectin treatment protocol; at a dose of 600 µg/kg, this has a reported cure rate of 83.3%, thus remaining a more effective and convenient route of administration for use in dogs.
    Last edited by Dad Said Not To; Feb. 14, 2010 at 07:19 PM.



  8. #8
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    Default

    It will also work on farm foxes : )

    My mother, bless her heart, cured our resident pack/herd/er? of foxes last year by feeding them dog kibble with the ivermectin mixed in. It was over a period of weeks.



  9. #9
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    Default

    I have an Aussie/ACD mix that got mange this fall by rolling where a fox had been sleeping GRRRR. I used Advantix Multi on her- and it cleared it up- 3 applications total each given two weeks apart.



  10. #10
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    Default

    Embarrassingly enough, my Rhodesian Ridgeback had mange about 5 years ago. He had an itchy area on his bum where he rubbed the hair off. I took him to the vet multiple times, did steroids & antibiotics, spent about $500 on visits & stuff that didn't work. The skin scraping test did not indicate mange. Finally I said, Just treat him for it and we'll see what happens. He had several iivermectin shots a week apart and it healed up right away.
    "You can't blame other people. You can't always say what happened wasn't my fault, and you know what? Even if you have an excuse, shut up. "Bruce Davidson Sr.



  11. #11
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    Default Might try Revolution

    Our dog gets some kind of skin mite, maybe scabies, that don't show up under a microscope. It eventually leads to loss of hair, but first they make them terribly itchy. Dog chewed her tail through almost to the bone before we figured out an effective treatment. Had to have the tail amputated.

    The first vet put the dog on ivermectin (I think--maybe ivomectin? Don't know if it is the same thing) for over a month. It helped while she was taking it, but then they recurred.

    Then the vet put her on Revolution, which is a flea treatment that also works on mites (and heartworm). We had to apply every two weeks instead of the normal once a month, to kill the mites as eggs hatched. I think it took six months all told, hair grew back, dog doing great.

    Two years later, the stupid mites are back. But now we know how to treat. She's doing well again on the two-week treatments.
    "Passion without knowledge is a runaway horse."



  12. #12
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    Default Thank you !

    Quote Originally Posted by JSwan View Post
    Zu Zu - are you perhaps thinking of the thread I started about my dog?

    If so, he ingested a tremendous amount of wormer - I had just dewormed a horse that weighs around 1500-1700 lbs. I don't know how much the dog ate but it was enough to almost kill him. The dog weighs about 70-75 lbs.

    Ivermectin is safe in most animals at the proper dosage - but you're right about some herding breeds being unable to take it.

    My dog made it - barely. We got him to the ER in time- he was already blind, ataxic, burning up and he started convulsing soon after we arrived. I think his vision is permanently damaged.

    Using it for mange is common - hunt clubs use it to treat wild foxes affected with mange - so I think Vineyridge will be ok if she uses it properly. It's also in dog de-wormers and heartworm medication, Just be super careful with the dosage - double check with the vet. And get a good weight on the dog.

    Anyway - I figured folks knew that ivermectin toxicity is often fatal in dogs - I'm certainly aware of it but my dog was pretty sneaky and I just didn't see what he'd done.
    J Swan ~ Thank you for the clarification ~ I thought your dog had ingested just a trace amount ~ I did not know the danger of horse wormers and barn dogs - never occurred to me a dog would lick or eat any worming medicine.Glad to know this information.
    Zu Zu Bailey " IT"S A WONDERFUL LIFE !"



  13. #13
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vineyridge View Post
    This dog is an adolescent pit bull who has been dumped. She has recently been spayed, because she still has her stitches and she also has classic signs of demodex. Which may or may not have been brought on by the spay.
    Does it not seem ODD to you that someone would pay for a recent spay on a dog and then dump them?

    Have you tried to find an owner? Contacted the SPCA? Put up Found ads?

    I can only hope that you will keep THIS dog penned so it doesn't wander off, while you treat it and continue to try to find the owner?

    NJR



  14. #14
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    Default

    I know who the owner is. He lives down the road from me. I have called almost daily to beg him to get the dog and take her in to the vet to get her stitches out and her mange treated. He has said that he would, but he doesn't.

    He wanted to get rid of her anyway because she is too sweet to become a "hog dog". The only reason she got spayed is because she got knocked up on her first heat because he couldn't keep her penned--or so he says. She now seems to live here.
    "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
    Thread killer Extraordinaire


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  15. #15
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    Default

    Vineyridge,
    You plan on practicing veterinary medicine without a license. In fact, by your post, it appears you have already violated your state's veterinary practice act. You've made a diagnosis and are going to administer an off label substance to treat such diagnosis, on someone else's dog, without the proper education or license that's required in your state.

    You may want to become accustomed to your state's laws, although sadly I remember posting them to you in regards to Angel's lack of appropriate vaccines several months ago, and as a lawyer, you should already know how to access them.

    God help those animals which are in your possession. I'd hope you'd take the dogs to a vet. I only wish this was the first time you made me say "holy %&*".

    http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/s...73_39_1_95.htm

    § 73-39-59. Practice of veterinary medicine; qualifications; veterinarian-client-patient relationship

    (1) No person may practice veterinary medicine in the state who is not a licensed veterinarian or the holder of a valid temporary permit issued by the board unless otherwise exempt under this chapter.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    (s) “Practice of veterinary medicine” means:

    (i) To diagnose, treat, correct, change, alleviate or prevent animal disease, illness, pain, deformity, defect, injury or other physical, dental or mental conditions by any method or mode, including:

    1. The prescribing, dispensing, administering or applying of any drug, medicine, biologic, apparatus, anesthetic or other therapeutic or diagnostic substance or medical or surgical technique; or

    2. The using of complementary, alternative and integrative therapies; or

    3. The rendering of advice or recommendation by any means including telephonic and other electronic communications with regard to any of the above.

    (ii) To represent, directly or indirectly, publicly or privately, an ability and willingness to do an act described in this paragraph.

    (iii) To use any title, words, abbreviation or letters in a manner or under circumstances that induce the belief that the person using them is qualified to do any act described in this paragraph.
    Last edited by FatPalomino; Feb. 15, 2010 at 12:47 AM.


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  16. #16
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    Default

    For what is is worth, ivermectin is GREAT for curing mange in guinea pigs. A few years back, IF Jr's pigs got bad mange. I visited the specialty vet (yes, guinea pigs are considered exotic animals) and he charged me $60 per pig to tell me they had mange. Then I learn the cure is a series of ivermectin shots. $19 each per pig -- series of 5. Ca-ching, ca-ching....these free pigs are now running up a $350+ vet bill for mange.

    Hmmmm, I said, are we talking the active ingredient in horse wormer. "Yes, but you can't give the guinea pig a tube of wormer," said the horrified vet. Of course not, but what I did do is get a tube of generic ivermetin and a tooth pick. I gave the pigs is tiny dab of it every couple of days and voila, no more mange!

    Guinea pigs are herbivores and there may be a reason why they can handle ivermectin whereas carnivores can't. But the stuff really works on mange.
    Where Norwegian Fjords Rule
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  17. #17
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    Default

    For what its worth, not that I'm an expert, the research I've done has said that d-mange is a reaction to high stress/suppressed immune system. Lots of vets want to medicate, dip, etc, but there is something to be said for changing to a high quality dog food and lowering the stress in the dog's life - for example, the spay surgery definitely caused significant stress, and generally, its recommended to not do surgeries on a dog with signs of d-mange. Sounds simple and boring, and isn't very instantaneous, but can make a change within a few weeks. Much less invasive for the dog, and results in a happier, healthier dog in the long run.



  18. #18
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    Default

    Viney, there's another thread in Off Topic Day looking for an update on Angel, after following her saga for so long. Perhaps you could go over and give them one?

    NJR



  19. #19
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FatPalomino View Post
    I remember posting them to you in regards to Angel's lack of appropriate vaccines several months ago
    Not to hijack the thread, but Angel had all her vaccinations before she left my farm. Between my neighbor and myself, we spent well over 1K in medical treatments (including spaying) and vaccinations, including the 3 year rabies vaccine. So she should be set until at least July of this year.

    Now, I do have a question, those of us that buy our own wormers and give them to our horses, without a vet's Rx, is that breaking laws? What about other medical procedures that we do at home, bandaging, applying topicals, etc.? Seems to be a bit of a gray area?
    There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be. - Andy Adams


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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MunchkinsMom View Post
    Now, I do have a question, those of us that buy our own wormers and give them to our horses, without a vet's Rx, is that breaking laws? What about other medical procedures that we do at home, bandaging, applying topicals, etc.? Seems to be a bit of a gray area?
    Check your state laws and if in doubt talk to a lawyer. But, it certainly doesn't seem like a gray area to me. For example, continuing with Miss. laws:

    "§ 73-39-61. Construction of Chapter; permitted activities

    This chapter shall not be construed to prohibit:
    ...
    (j) Any owner of an animal and any of the owner's regular employees caring for and treating the animal belonging to such owner, except when the ownership of the animal was transferred for purposes of circumventing this chapter. A veterinarian-client-patient relationship must exist when prescription drugs or nonprescription drugs intended for extralabel use are administered, dispensed or prescribed. "



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