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  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    If you were a 58 year old medical textbook, you would certainly be antiquated. If you are a 58 year old human who has kept up with current advances in science and technology and who reads the news, perhaps you would be less antiquated.
    What exactly is your problem with me? Beyond the fact I know I have the same right to speak as you.

    Many people debate at what point life begins. I found Dr Paul's comment to be interesting. So far no one has given a definition of the beginning of life that makes total sense to me. A definition that holds no matter how one views it.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Many people debate at what point life begins. I found Dr Paul's comment to be interesting. So far no one has given a definition of the beginning of life that makes total sense to me. A definition that holds no matter how one views it.
    This is the crux of the issue for a lot of people, and I don't think that there is a universal answer. Even science won't make a definitive ruling on something so fraught.

    I doubt we'll ever reach an agreement on the beginning of life.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris


    3 members found this post helpful.

  3. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trixie View Post
    I'm only asking you to clarify the statements that YOU made. That is not an unreasonable request.

    But, I do believe you just perfectly proved my point. If there have been "incredible advances in medical science in the past 50 years" then you cannot hold up a 50 year old teaching as being the viewpoint of the medical community.
    Take a deep breath. Unless you are actively practicing in the medical field you cannot make that statement. Neither can I dispute.
    If the intent is to be precise, then we need an active medical professional to state that 50 year medical teaching is antiquated and should be discarded
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim



  4. #284
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    I am sure that nearly every woman who has had to make this difficult choice knows that.
    I truly suspect it's not a choice made without a lot of thought.



    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    You asked and I provided Dr Paul's comment. It gave me pause as I have often wondered about the when it is a fetus a person. The medical world has their own definition. More to think about for me.

    You can chose to consider his comment or not.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I'm pretty sure Virginia has given rights to some rapists. There was a case a few years ago (maybe a couple of decades), where the woman was raped by her father, had the child and he obtained partial or complete parental rights to the child because 'she was a lesbian'.
    Remind me to not move to Virginia! That's terrible.



  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by BaroquePony View Post
    I'm pretty sure Virginia has given rights to some rapists. There was a case a few years ago (maybe a couple of decades), where the woman was raped by her father, had the child and he obtained partial or complete parental rights to the child because 'she was a lesbian'.
    sorry but do you have something to back that up? Otherwise it really sounds like another urban legend...

    back on the topic though, I'm 100% pro-choice and don't even understand why this needs to be discussed. Don't we see enough kids raised by parent(s) who couldn't afford them and were not ready to have them? If a woman in her right mind decides that now is not the time, for whatever reason, to bring a kid to this world, then it's her decision and nobody else should interfere. Or do they also want to pay for that kid's daycare and college expenses?


    4 members found this post helpful.

  7. #287
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    I actually saved the news article on disk, but the disks are the old "A" drive type disks, and I don't have any way of accessing them ... yet.

    I save news articles by accepted mainstream (Reuters, periodicals, etc..) journalists.

    There are much worse stories. In America.



  8. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by PassionForSaddles View Post

    back on the topic though, I'm 100% pro-choice and don't even understand why this needs to be discussed. Don't we see enough kids raised by parent(s) who couldn't afford them and were not ready to have them? If a woman in her right mind decides that now is not the time, for whatever reason, to bring a kid to this world, then it's her decision and nobody else should interfere. Or do they also want to pay for that kid's daycare and college expenses?
    I think that's the whole point. You have a whole bunch of people openly insisting on not paying for birth control, forcing women to have children, then saying they want to cut all of the government "entitlements" like food stamps, health care, education, housing, etc. for those children they forced someone to be born.

    Anyone who want to force women to have children should be forced to pay ALL of the bills, or take that child as their own.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  9. #289
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    Sep. 7, 2004
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    Let's be clear here, life doesn't exactly begin at conception no matter what Ron Paul thinks. What science tells us it that it's a potential life, and no fetus can survive outside the uterus until 24 weeks (with the caveat that it's a terribly iffy chance then with out serious complications). Before that time it's simply not an independent viable separate life form that can survive anywhere, it's a potential to be a full term baby should nothing arise that complicates that. I'm glad Ron Paul views it as two people at that moment but that doesn't make it factually accurate.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    I think that's the whole point. You have a whole bunch of people openly insisting on not paying for birth control, forcing women to have children, then saying they want to cut all of the government "entitlements" like food stamps, health care, education, housing, etc. for those children they forced someone to be born.

    Anyone who want to force women to have children should be forced to pay ALL of the bills, or take that child as their own.
    If I could get one of them in a room, in front of a camera I swear I would ask WTF is up with that? I know it's a cynics view but if I had to guess it would be that they need the working poor to provide cheap labor so a steady stream of people desperate for any kind of work is important to keep that machine running. You don't want them educated, they might move on. Keep them hungry and dangle that carrot just out of reach. When they get sick, turn into addicts, or otherwise are no longer suitable to work just replace them. Plenty more where that one came from.

    I know that is sort of a sick and twisted thought but I can't figure out why else it is so important to these people to get lots of babies on the ground then abandon them the minute they're born.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  11. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    It has everything to do with responsibility in sex. People should think before engaging in sex.
    Men can wear condoms or have a vasectomy, women need to be responsible with their choice of BC.
    Men should be taught to respect women and our culture does not.
    Women need to be valued more for their brains than their ability to pole dance. Something I say often and loudly.
    The idea that the only good time is to go clubbing and hook up, often leads to unintended consequences.
    Males siring multiple children with multiple women are not men, they are only sperm donors
    Women having multiple children, think octo-mom, are often irresponsible.

    None of the above is stated in any relation to rape or incest. The above is regarding men and women of reasonably sound mind and body.

    Understand I have seen a lot in the pass 50+ decades. A lot of changes and it hasn't been all that we wanted.
    You do realize that not all un-planned pregnancies come from "going clubbing and hooking up", right? People in monogamous relationships have them too. And that a guy could get married in his twenties and have kids and divorce, and then re-marry and have more kids, and be far more than a sperm donor? There are trashy, crappy parents out there. But an unplanned pregnancy, or multiple pregnancies with more than one person, does not make someone a trashy, crappy parent.

    And what I said was fact. The countries with the lowest abortion rates make access to birth control and sex Ed easily, none of this abstinance only crap. And they make sure that even moms with low-paying jobs have the benefits and leave that let them afford to have a kid (my own DS had complications that resulted in a 100k NICU bill, which my insurance refused to cover bc they considered the NICU an out of program provider, a fact they neglected to share when they said the hospital would be covered). And yes, part of the education is how to use bc responsibly. And choose good birth control. A part of te problem is that the free bc is often the pill, and since many poorer women work shift work, it can complicate taking the pill.

    And bc fails. I took mine the same time every day. I was not on meds, had no sudden weight gain, and never skipped a pill. I still got pregnant. Luckily we could afford the high, high cost of my pregnancy, delivery, and the costs since.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frizzle View Post
    Because she calls me "a nice heathen"? As in, "you're a heathen, but a very nice one"? She calls me that because I am not Catholic (actually, not Christian either).
    Well, yeah. Because she disagrees with your religious views (or lack of) and I'm sure wishes you were a Catholic, and the primary definition of "heathen" is someone who is not a Christian, Jewish, or Muslim (maybe you're one of the latter two, I don't know) -- and even disagreeing with your religious views, she still likes you. She sees the good in you and thinks your nice even though your views are opposite hers. How unlike so many families!

    Even through this discussion, so many people dislike people who won't agree with them on fundamental issues. Not grandma! She loves her Frizzle.



  13. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Personally I would prefer that abortion is rare. That we as a people take more responsibility in our sexual lives.
    Agree wholeheartedly.

    I think part of the problem is a lot of people think of abortion as primarily used by women who are careless with birth control: "I'm not worried; if I get pregnant I'll just have an abortion." Sadly, of course there are women like that.

    However, those of us with experience in the health care, psychiatric, medical, counseling, teaching fields see a whole different world, and see the horrible things that happen to women, some mere children. When you've worked with those women you know different.

    That's why we need Roe v. Wade upheld. Yes, continue to educate women and men to act responsibly sexually, to encourage abstinence, all those things, but we cannot order EVERY woman in the country, EVERY SINGLE ONE, to live as we would have her live when the vast majority of Americans have no clue, cannot fathom the awful things that happen to far too many women here. The badge of honor of being a liberal is that we attempt to understand and to assist those who are worse off than we are. Unlike the conservatives, we don't want to make everybody live according to one way and one way only.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  14. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beentheredonethat View Post
    I think that's the whole point. You have a whole bunch of people openly insisting on not paying for birth control, forcing women to have children, then saying they want to cut all of the government "entitlements" like food stamps, health care, education, housing, etc. for those children they forced someone to be born.
    Exactly! Excellent post. (This needed more than a Thumbs Up acknowledgement ).


    3 members found this post helpful.

  15. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsefaerie View Post

    If they would give a rapist rights in a state, I would move. I wonder if that is the case in my state? That would be hell on earth!!!
    You might want to examine the laws in your state, then, because most of them (31 -33 depending upon source) apparently do allow parental rights to rapists: http://www.theatlanticwire.com/natio...-rights/56118/

    Meanwhile,it's clear to me that anti-choice people are seeking to legislate their own visions of morality/religion upon the rest of us. How else could it be that people and nations worldwide have the right to go to war and other acts of self-defense which often involve killing invaders and yet we have folks like Murdock who wish to deny women the right to protect themselves against invasion and occupation of their own bodies because the invasion is supposedly a "gift from God"??~!?

    Some of you right-to-lifers really need to get a grip on the various "hells on earth" created by the kinds of legislation you support.

    Rapists with parental rights? Jeez, isn't it God's will that every child should have 2 parents-- one man and one woman? And, besides, if the rape were "legitimate," wouldn't the woman's body have "shut down"?

    Not to worry. God takes care of everything.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  16. #296
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    If the map doesn't show up there you can scroll down & see it here: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...shauna-prewitt

    It's estimated that 32,000 American women become pregnant as a result of rape each year. 30% elect to keep the baby. It's also estimated that only 10% of rapes are even reported.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  17. #297
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    Once again, this entire topic fails to address the complexity of the risks associated with carrying a pregnancy to term for many women. I work in adoption. We counsel our birthmothers on ALL their options, depending on their gestational stage. Eliminating abortion as an option for many of these women puts them at great physical risk. This is a fact.

    For many women, it's simply not safe to go through with a pregnancy.

    We had a birthmother not long ago who was in an incest/bordering on rape situation. Her family member had previously gotten another relative pregnant, then physically assaulted her when he found out about the pregnancy. We verified this through police reports. She asked our birthparent counselor whether she could obtain an abortion without his consent. After counseling, this is what she chose. She was living in the same home as the father of her child, and was caring for an elderly relative who was dependent on her.

    Would this have been a safe pregnancy? Would it have been a safe adoption? Was it "irresponsible sex"? Was the sex even her choice?

    Adoption is NOT a replacement for well thought out abortion. It's NOT.EVEN.CLOSE. Not by a long freaking shot.
    Here today, gone tomorrow...


    18 members found this post helpful.

  18. #298
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    Well said, FrenchFry.



  19. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    You are right, back then, before the age of abortion, both lives were considered important.
    The question was general in nature and his answer was general. I would be interested in his training and opinion of abortion n the case of rape, incest or the woman's well being.

    Personally I would prefer that abortion is rare. That we as a people take more responsibility in our sexual lives.
    And more importantly in my perfect world no one experiences rape or incest.
    That was not before the age of abortion. It was before the age of LEGAL abortion. I am firmly adamantly pro chouce. And I, like every other pro choice person I know, want to keep abortion safe and legal and make it RARE. However unlike my neighbors www.all.org we favor BROAD access to safe effective birth control including the morning after pill
    I wasn't always a Smurf
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    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  20. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by horsefaerie View Post

    If they would give a rapist rights in a state, I would move. I wonder if that is the case in my state? That would be hell on earth!!!

    I cannot imagine that. It might also give some a reason to murder the woman they rape so that they don't have to pay child support.
    Here ya go

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...shauna-prewitt

    It won't link directly to the map, scroll down and click for the full article
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    1 members found this post helpful.

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