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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    They fumble because the vast majority of rape victims never come forward. The people who could put paid to their false arguments are too busy picking up their own lives or too shamed by the judgmental actions of others to come forward.

    I was 18 and a virgin when I was raped. My own mother still doesn't know. Hell, only 2 of my friends know. It was hell on earth. My religious upbringing made the guilt and shame nearly unbearable. My rapist is now a minister. I neither asked for it nor deserved it. I was lucky though in one way--my only "consequences" were emotional/psychological trauma. But the wait until I knew was utterly horrific as there was no way in hell I would have been welcomed home pregnant and unwed. I'd already been told that if "something happened" I'd get sent away to have the baby. I started college in 1997, not 1957.

    GotGait--((((hugs))))
    Thank you for having the courage to speak out about this. You are a hero.
    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

    Originally Posted by JSwan
    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.


    3 members found this post helpful.

  2. #182
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    If a rape and subsequent pregnancy occur because 'God intended it to happen', why isn't it also true that when a woman has an abortion for any reason, it's because God intended for it to happen?

    The Bible is packed with tales of a God who plays both sides of life. He gives life or spares lives sometimes, and then other times, this same God incites, demands or even whimsically inflicts punishments, including death.

    This particular deity didn't strike me as especially pro-life when I was studying the Bible.


    11 members found this post helpful.

  3. #183
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    Feb. 5, 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Since the beginning of Creation with Adam & Eve. They choose to go against God and believe what Satan told them " that you will be like God". What they had in paradise wasn't enough. What has the world been like since? Look at the history of this whole world and what people are capable of doing to one another. You who want a world without God and all his stifling rules & morals, here it is.
    That is YOUR religious belief, not mine. Don't attempt to govern me with your religion. My god is sympathetic and caring and intelligent, not vengeful. My god doesn't look down on people for using birth control or making the incredibly difficult decision to have an abortion (whether it be because the woman was raped or the baby had significant birth defects or the woman could not afford the significant costs of giving birth). For what it's worth, my god also doesn't reject people because they're homosexual or because they were so depressed they committed suicide. My very Catholic grandmother calls me "a very nice heathen," but I always tell her that, unlike the Catholic version of god, mine is truly compassionate and free from hatred.


    21 members found this post helpful.

  4. #184
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Harrisburg, PA USA
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    Frizzle, I love your grandmother.



  5. #185
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    Jun. 16, 2001
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    I hope that these conservative women-hating, right-to-life wackos put their money where their mouth is and abstain from all medical care because following their own twisted logic If they get sick or hurt "God intended it to happen."


    I hate double standards.
    Last edited by 5; Oct. 31, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


    9 members found this post helpful.

  6. #186
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by luvmytbs View Post
    Well, if abortion is murder then taking BCP's is "pre-emptive" murder, isn't it.

    IMO if we allow religion based beliefs to drive certain legislation, it won't be long before some will decide they want to ban birth control as well.
    Yup, check out www.all.org

    Click on education...it's frightening
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  7. #187
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    Jun. 27, 2005
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    KY
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Yup, check out www.all.org

    Click on education...it's frightening
    OMG. They are beyond frightening......

    ************************
    \"Horses lend us the wings we lack\"


    5 members found this post helpful.

  8. #188
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    Feb. 23, 2007
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    Jawja
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    The Republican Party, the Party for the 15th Century Woman In You!
    Let us ride together; blowing mane and hair; careless of the weather; miles ahead of care...Fat Cat Farm Sport Horses


    7 members found this post helpful.

  9. #189
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    Aug. 1, 2002
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    Georgia
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    OK. I'll bite. And, I'm not posting to change anyone's mind, or make anyone see things my way. I'm just posting my thoughts. That is all.

    I personally think that ALL he was saying is that all life is a gift, no matter how it starts. I do not believe that he was trying to say that God causes rape, or considers rape a gift.

    God know everything. Read Psalms 139. Nothing escapes him. I believe that there are things that he does cause - both good and bad. The Old Testament is full of examples of both. However, I also believe that he allows other things to happen. Why? Because we live in a fallen world. Yes, God is in control, but Satan is at the helm. If I jump out of a five story building, it isn't God that will cause me to die, it would be the Law of Gravity that would take over.

    That said, I also believe that he is powerful enough to make blessings come from any circumstance, even something as horrible as Rape. My husband died almost 5 months ago. He was 31 years old, with a genius IQ. He was drop dead gorgeous, a great cook, a witty sense of humor, and a 22 month old little girl who was pretty crazy for her Daddy. He died of an accidental overdose. Now, I believe with all of my heart that God could have chosen to heal him of his addictions here on Earth. But my Husband struggled terribly, and in his case, I think that God just called him home. I miss him every day. My two kids miss him every day. I have a little girl who will never have a Daddy to run to, or to walk her down the Aisle. I don't believe that it is God's will to see us hurt. But God has blessed us in so many ways in the past 5 months, and I know He is blessing my husband right now.

    The issue isn't about being pro-choice or pro-life. The issue is that we have such a narrow view of things, while God sees the Big Picture. For us, blessings seem to stop at the point of Death. For God they are timeless - without a beginning or an end.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #190
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Yup, did you read the organ donation page?
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #191
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    Oct. 30, 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolprudm View Post
    Yup, check out www.all.org

    Click on education...it's frightening
    Dear god...they even hate organ donation! ARGHH!!!

    Thanks all for the kind words.

    As the seemingly unending series of misstatements by public figures keeps the public talking, I do think it's doing some good. Don't get me wrong, hearing things like Akin's comment on "shutting that whole thing down" and the discussion of classifying rape into "legitimate" or other categories, absolutely add insult to the already sustained injury, but it's brought about some good too. Having Congresswoman Gwen Moore step forward and publicly tell her story was one of the highlights (in a camaraderie-fostering kind of way) of this conversation. It's a lot harder to marginalize those who step forward, who personalize the conversation with articulate, cohesive accounts of the other side of the story. Unfortunately, there will always be some (*cough, cough* Rush Limbaugh) who are so threatened by the reality of a strong female opponent that they continue to try to discredit the message. But I think as more women come forward, as the push-back against ignorance and hate gets stronger, then we'll start to see the tides shift. It's not going to happen overnight and there will always be some who cling to their distorted beliefs, but those who are pandering to the far right will be marginalized instead.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    5 members found this post helpful.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    Read Psalms 139.
    Psalms 139 is the only reason I ever considered going back to the church after leaving it in college.

    I'm so sorry about your husband. I absolutely cannot imagine how horrible losing him is for you and your daughter. It's wonderful though that you are able to see the blessings among the tragedy.

    I agree that often there are blessings we overlook, like flowers among the weeds. But neither do I think that I should force my idea of a blessing onto someone who sees it differently. If they are capable of raising a child and they wish too, I'll be the first to support them. If they are neither capable nor willing, I'll be the first to support them in that decision as well.

    I think this conversation has so many facets to it that it's easier for our human brains to try to separate it into smaller areas and make black & white decisions about the pieces without really looking at the whole picture. But even if we sub-divide it, I think if we approach it with anything less than love and respect for our neighbors and ourselves, we're never going to escape the same circles we continually argue in.
    Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

    You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    I personally think that ALL he was saying is that all life is a gift, no matter how it starts. I do not believe that he was trying to say that God causes rape, or considers rape a gift.
    What he said was simplistic and thoughtless. What he said indicated that this candidate for national office lacked the intellectual rigor to consider the life circumstances of approximately half (females) of his intended constituency.

    He is a candidate for political office in a non-religious legislative body. Yet he can dismiss a nightmare scenario for any woman as something 'God intended.'

    Yet this passes for political discourse from a candidate from a national party for national office.


    16 members found this post helpful.

  14. #194
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    Dec. 29, 1999
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    Harrisburg, PA USA
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    Freebird! I am very sorry for your loss, and thank you for your comments.

    I believe this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    I also believe that he is powerful enough to make blessings come from any circumstance, even something as horrible as Rape.
    However, this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by Freebird! View Post
    I personally think that ALL he was saying is that all life is a gift, no matter how it starts.
    I believe he's saying "all life is a gift, no matter how it starts." I understand that belief. But I don't believe that's ALL he was saying. Not for one cotton pickin' minute. He wants HIS beliefs and MY beliefs to be EVERYBODY'S beliefs, and that's why he has to go.

    That's the problem here. You can believe whatever you want about you & yours, but if you have a belief about life or your husband's death I have no right to legislate that you MUST change how you act because your beliefs are wrong. The narrow-mindedness is coming straight from Mourdock, not from others. The people who support a woman's right to abortion are not forcing anyone to have one. So it IS about choice.

    And all the nice God talk won't change that. All we are saying is you live according to your beliefs and let others live according to their beliefs.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  15. #195
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    Feb. 23, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by jen-s View Post
    Psalms 139 is the only reason I ever considered going back to the church after leaving it in college.

    I'm so sorry about your husband. I absolutely cannot imagine how horrible losing him is for you and your daughter. It's wonderful though that you are able to see the blessings among the tragedy.

    I agree that often there are blessings we overlook, like flowers among the weeds. But neither do I think that I should force my idea of a blessing onto someone who sees it differently. If they are capable of raising a child and they wish too, I'll be the first to support them. If they are neither capable nor willing, I'll be the first to support them in that decision as well.

    I think this conversation has so many facets to it that it's easier for our human brains to try to separate it into smaller areas and make black & white decisions about the pieces without really looking at the whole picture. But even if we sub-divide it, I think if we approach it with anything less than love and respect for our neighbors and ourselves, we're never going to escape the same circles we continually argue in.
    I agree
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  16. #196
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    Dec. 21, 2008
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    Longing to be where I once was.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    Yes, and look at the alarming amount of violence and inhumanity that has been carried out in this world in the name of "God”.
    Yes, carried out by us not God. Don't blame Him for what some misguided people may do in His name. Nobody denies the right to do with your body as you wish. If a woman wants to cut off her hand ( or anything else she was born with) be my guest. The baby a women carries is no more a "part" of her body than the chicken I am cooking today is a part of the oven it is in . Someone has to defend the rights of the unborn.



  17. #197
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    Really interesting article.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoy...-movement.html

    I realized that the only world in which opposing birth control made any sense was one in which the goal was to control women’s sex lives. After all, birth control allows women to have sex without having to face the “consequences” of sex. But I had never opposed abortion in an effort to make women face the “consequences” of having sex. I had always opposed abortion out of a desire to save the lives of unborn babies. As a child, I had been moved to tears by the image of millions of babies murdered by abortion each year. If making it easier for women to have sex I personally believed was sinful was the price I had to pay to save the lives of unborn babies, it was a price I was more than willing to pay.



  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
    Really interesting article.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoy...-movement.html

    I realized that the only world in which opposing birth control made any sense was one in which the goal was to control women’s sex lives. After all, birth control allows women to have sex without having to face the “consequences” of sex. But I had never opposed abortion in an effort to make women face the “consequences” of having sex. I had always opposed abortion out of a desire to save the lives of unborn babies. As a child, I had been moved to tears by the image of millions of babies murdered by abortion each year. If making it easier for women to have sex I personally believed was sinful was the price I had to pay to save the lives of unborn babies, it was a price I was more than willing to pay.
    Could we please constrain both genders equally, then, in the name of saving babes? I don't see men paying the same price for that as women. Were we to insure that fathers support their children, you'd have a point.

    I don't think this is a men vs. women thing. Some women are deeply pro-life, too. But by and large, it's not single, poor women deciding that all should pay with abstinence; it is this group that is doing the paying.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #199
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    Freebird and JenS - hugs to both of you.
    i have dealt with abuse and such in my own life. It has been a long road to learn to forgive, the abuser and those who did not protect me, and to learn to really enjoy my life.

    it is all black and white until you are in the middle of it. That is why each case must be handled individually. Each person processes their rape, molestation, possible pregnancy and pregnancy differently-so we must be flexible for them.

    CnC many kudos to you for all that you do for the victims. Take care of yourself because it is wearing on the soul.

    To those saying walk the talk - DH and I have mentored kids for the past decade. That includes taking them in to our home, driving them to and from their family members and spending untold dollars on each of them. To the point that I ride very little even tho my horses are just outside. Ah well, it will never be enough to suit you, so we do what we can with what we can.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


    1 members found this post helpful.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    Someone has to defend the rights of the unborn.
    But we do such a piss-poor job of taking care of the wee ones' rights after they are born! It seems inconsistent that we measure the poverty rate of children, separate from the adult members of their respective families, find that quite high and then defend the right to be born into unmitigated poverty anyway.

    Shouldn't we feel morally obligated to do a better job of insuring a fine start in childhood before we insist that every fetus get there? At the very least, the two ought to be connected in any argument for the right to life.
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat


    3 members found this post helpful.

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