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  1. #361
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    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffr...b_1956568.html

    Oh, Bishop Romney, your Mormon underwear is showing.

    "According to [single mother] Hayes, Romney "pressured" her to give her son up for adoption through an LDS agency. At first she thought she had misunderstood him, but much to her horror, she hadn't. "[Romney] told me it was really important to give the baby up," Hayes said in her original interview with Globe reporters Frank Phillips and Scot Lehigh nearly two decades ago. "He told me he was a representative of the church and by refusing, I was failing to comply with the church's wishes and I could be excommunicated."

    "Hayes took Romney's admonition as a threat. She felt attacked, even intimidated. Moreover, it was insulting: "He was saying that because Dane [her son] didn't have a Mormon father in the home and because of the circumstances of his birth--being born to a single mother--then the expectation of the church was that I give him up for adoption to the church agency so he could be raised by a Mormon couple in good standing."


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  2. #362
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    This is sort of my problem with the religion part.
    How many times in the bible does it say - "judge not - lest ye be judged"???
    So many "religious" people are so judgmental - what the heck happened to that part?? No one can make these kinds of decisions for someone else. No one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natalie View Post
    Really? I hear this all the time but have no idea how it could possibly be true. Health insurance won't pay for it the majority of the time, and an abortion really isn't particularly expensive, not compared to say, full on surgeries. There isn't really any monetary reward for physicians to perform them.

    And then you have to deal with the constant protestors, threats on violence, attempts on your life and all that stuff...


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  3. #363
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    Nice - very very nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anne FS View Post
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffr...b_1956568.html

    Oh, Bishop Romney, your Mormon underwear is showing.

    "According to [single mother] Hayes, Romney "pressured" her to give her son up for adoption through an LDS agency. At first she thought she had misunderstood him, but much to her horror, she hadn't. "[Romney] told me it was really important to give the baby up," Hayes said in her original interview with Globe reporters Frank Phillips and Scot Lehigh nearly two decades ago. "He told me he was a representative of the church and by refusing, I was failing to comply with the church's wishes and I could be excommunicated."

    "Hayes took Romney's admonition as a threat. She felt attacked, even intimidated. Moreover, it was insulting: "He was saying that because Dane [her son] didn't have a Mormon father in the home and because of the circumstances of his birth--being born to a single mother--then the expectation of the church was that I give him up for adoption to the church agency so he could be raised by a Mormon couple in good standing."


    3 members found this post helpful.

  4. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by candyappy View Post
    If they weren't making money the abortion clinics wouldn't be open would they? You really think the doctors and nurses are doing it as a community service to all these poor, unfortunate women? Get a grip. At 5+ million babies aborted since it was legalized someone is making money.
    Riiiggght. Because all the obstetricians and hospitals and nurses are donating all their time and resources delivering babies as a community service. There is a lot more money to be made with live births than with abortion.

    My grandson (who was wanted, planned for, and welcomed by the way) cost about 30K to hit the ground. He gets to start his life with loving parents, doting grandparents, and ponies. Not poverty, addiction, or resentment.

    It might be a good idea for you to get a grip yourself.


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  5. #365
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    How is disposing of fertilized eggs different than abortion.

    Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?!?

    Tell me why the Christian GOD says one is right, and one is wrong!?!


    4 members found this post helpful.

  6. #366
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    Read Tamara's story. I dare anyone to come back tell me abortions are thoughtless whims: http://tinyurl.com/abu3mfz
    "The idea of "removing" my baby, my fetus, while its heart was still beating was simply unbearable. Was it living? Was it still growing? Would I be stopping the heartbeat, cutting short its life? And what do I do after the operation? Do I bury it? I didn't understand what I had inside of me and I didn't understand what I should do. "
    Then I dare you to tell me why your beliefs trump hers and force her, and countless others like her, through a needless hell

    "Because your fetus still has a heartbeat, it has been our experience that insurance companies in Ohio will not cover the costs of the operation. They consider it an optional abortion. Our office suggests that you go to Planned Parenthood, which will only run you $800. If you go to the hospital it will be over $10,000." I was stunned. What did my insurance company want, for me to have a dangerous late-stage miscarriage or go through the risks of labor to give birth to a stillborn? And why this obsession with the heartbeat as the sole marker of life? What about organ and brain function, what about viability? At that moment, I was extremely grateful for Planned Parenthood. But I still didn't want to go there. I wanted to support them, but I didn't want to have an abortion. I didn't even want to have anything that seemed like an abortion. I wanted to be pregnant. I wanted to have a baby.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


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  7. #367
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    Next, you can read about how Libby Anne Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement

    If those who oppose abortion really believes that abortion is murder, they should be supporting programs that would make it easier for poor women to afford to carry pregnancies to term. Instead, they’re doing the opposite. Overwhelmingly, those who oppose abortion also want to cut welfare and medicaid. Without these programs, the number of women who choose abortion because they cannot afford to carry a given pregnancy to term will rise. Further, they are working against things like paid maternity leave, subsidized daycare, and universal health insurance for children, programs which would likely decrease the number of women who choose abortion because they cannot afford to carry a pregnancy to term. And in this specific case, conservatives want to penalize a poor woman who chooses to carry a pregnancy to term by making it harder for her to make ends meet.

    This makes utterly no sense if the goal is to save babies.
    as well as her follow up blog A Response to Objections on My Pro-Life Movement Post

    Of all the comments on my post, the ones that I found most strange were the ones arguing that sex is about making babies, and people need to be responsible and accept the consequences of their decisions. I found these comments odd because they revealed that someone could somehow read my entire post and then make my point for me. For these commenters, being pro-life is not about saving babies, or at least not primarily about saving babies. Instead it is about making sure that sex has consequences.

    But why? Why must sex have consequences? When an obese person becomes diabetic we don’t deprive him of insulin and tell him his diabetes is his own fault and he just has to deal with the consequences. Should we deprive people of coffee because if you’re tired it’s your own fault for not getting more sleep? We do things to mitigate the consequences of our actions all the time. Birth control and abortion are just one more way of doing this. If someone argues that sex must have consequences – that sex and baby making must always go hand in hand regardless of the technology we have developed to separate the two – they are simply trying to impose their personal beliefs on everyone else.

    Furthermore, seeing abortion as a way for people to be irresponsible is disingenuous. When a woman finds herself with an unplanned pregnancy, she has to consider her options and choose a course of action. That is called being responsible. Having an abortion is one of those options. In other words, there is no reason abortion should be seen as an irresponsible way of handling an unplanned pregnancy, just like there is no reason having a baby should be the mandated consequence of having sex.

    If you are one who believes that abortion is murder, you will probably have some problems with the two previous paragraphs. But my point is that if it is all about preventing the murder of unborn babies, well, talk of “consequences” and “responsibility” is a bit disingenuous. When you talk about how sex should have consequences or about how abortion is an irresponsible way to get out of dealing with the results of sex, well, you are moving the conversation away from saving babies and toward controlling people’s sex lives. So if it really is about saving babies, and not about pushing your sexual morality on society in general, you shouldn’t be making this sort of argument.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


    8 members found this post helpful.

  8. #368
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    Apply economic theory.

    If there is an abundance of something it becomes cheap. (Remember the 22.50 dollar yearlings?)

    I don't want human life to become cheap and it will if the religious zealots have their way.

    The pedophiles sentances will become lighter, along with the perpitrators of the R-word that I have become sick of reading in this thread.

    Wasn't there some sort of reverse spiked device invented in south africa (By a woman- who'd'a thunk) that pretty much shredded a rapists you-know-what.

    Put those on the drug store shelves available for purchase and the men suddenly become 'very' respectful since they would not know which of the women are packing one.

    Despirate times call for despireate measures.

    FWIW - I believe every child should be a 'wanted' child.
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


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  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFlyinBey++ View Post
    Next, you can read about how Libby Anne
    thank you for the link, great reading.


    2 members found this post helpful.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 View Post
    Apply economic theory.

    If there is an abundance of something it becomes cheap. (Remember the 22.50 dollar yearlings?)
    Off topic for Off Topic day, but... What's this about $22.50 yearlings?



  11. #371
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    This thread. It was weanling not yearlings my mistake.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...50-weanlings-)
    The Denver Broncos went to visit an orphanage. "It's so sad looking into their faces so devoid of hope." Sara aged 6


    1 members found this post helpful.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by fooler View Post
    Get ready, I am about to say something different. In 1964 my late sister gave birth to her first child. I was 9. She had a rough pregnancy and they took a lot of X-rays trying to monitor everything. At one point during the delivery, the DRs told my late ex-BIL that they didn't know if both could be saved and which one did he want. He wisely chose my sister. Both survived, until my nephew was diagnosed with leukemia at age 2.5 and died at age 4.

    Life is seldom the black/white or right/wrong world we debate on these boards.
    similar situation here-- mom went into labor 10 wks early w/sister, mom was hemorrhaging and drs had my dad decide who they should work on first. He answered I need a mother for the two kids we have, not three kids with no mother. They both made it thru, thank heavens, but what a heavy decision to be on one's shoulders.



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 View Post
    This thread. It was weanling not yearlings my mistake.

    http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/sh...50-weanlings-)
    Thanks.

    And also, yikes.



  14. #374
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    I had a discussion once (um pretty heated at times, me being a woman and all) as he was writing a paper for school stating he was against abortion in ALL circumstances. I wanted to know how he would feel if his then 12 yr old sister was raped by her uncle and got pregnant, why should she AT 12 YRS OLD, also have to go thru pregnancy, labor and delivery-- and then what?? He thought she should give the baby up for adoption.

    so then (IMO) she not only had to live w/the rape, the pregnancy, the delivery and the loss of her baby, but the stigma attached in many different ways to that whole scenario.

    My opinion?? My Body. My Decision. My Vote.


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  15. #375
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    This site is full of stories of women who have chosen abortion and do not regret their choice: I'm Not Sorry

    Robyn’s Story, September 6th, 2010
    I am 31 years old and the mother of 1 year old twins. I found out less than 1 week ago that I was pregnant again. I knew that since the father did not help me much at all with the two children that we currently have together I was not going to get any help with a third and that I could not go through another pregnancy. My first pregnancy with the twins was very hard as I was extremely sick for months. I have always been pro-choice just not sure if it was a choice I could make. I wanted any future pregnancies to be in a loving and supportive relationship and knew that again I was not in that place. I made the decision about 2 hours after finding out I was pregnant. I looked for a clinic on the internet. I found a clinic not far from my home, about 10 minutes. The woman who answered the phone was very helpful and answered any questions I had. The counselor at the clinic was also helpful and the whole staff made this difficult decision a little easier. They performed a sonogram and to my shock I was again pregnant with twins. The doctor asked if I wanted to still go through with the procedure and let me know it was ok if I didn’t. But I have found it financially hard taking care of my twins and knew I could not provide for 2 more. I was not prepared for the discomfort that I felt but the nurse held my hand and even wiped away my tears. It has been a rough few hours since my procedure. I have thought about the “what if’s” and even calculated what would have been the due date. But I have since found peace. I can devote my time and resources to the wonderful children I have now. I am not sorry for this decision. And I hope that women around the world can make choices that fit their lives without judgment.
    I'm not arguing, I'm just explaining why I'm right
    Violence doesn't end violence. It extends it. Break the cycle.


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  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appsolute View Post
    How is disposing of fertilized eggs different than abortion.

    Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?!?

    Tell me why the Christian GOD says one is right, and one is wrong!?!
    Appsolute. Here is my Christian perspective on Abortion.

    If Christians believe that life begins at conception it isn't fair to say that life doesn't begin at conception when the fertilized egg is disposed of in a laboratory.

    Abortion is terminating a life. Murder is a sin. So is lying, cheating, coveting others possession, lust, jealous, etc. Any Christian knows that the reason we need Jesus is that we are inherently sinful. Every day we make choices that go against the life we are called to live.

    For that reason I am morally pro-life and politically pro-choice. It is not my place to make this difficult decision for someone else.

    All sin is the same in the eyes of God and he is the ultimate judge. While I am here on earth it is not my place to judge the actions of others.

    If I don't want to see babies aborted then I feel like it is my duty, as a Christian, to help women have access to the resources they need.

    We need planned parenthood, sex education in our schools, access to contraceptives, better funding for our foster system, resources for single parents, better access to drug rehab programs, resources for low-income individuals with high-risk pregnancies, better and more affordable gene testing, affordable food to ensure adequate prenatal nutrition, affordable quality childcare, etc, etc, etc.

    How can we ask women to carry a child to term if we are not providing all of the resources they need to have a planned pregnancy and a viable way to care for that child once it is born?

    On the topic of Rape:

    We were given free will. Sometimes people use that free will to commit horrendous crimes against other people. God makes all things work together for our good HOWEVER he does not make a rape happen. A sick person commits a rape. To say that it was God's will for that act of violence to occur is absolute garbage. He never wants to see us hurt physically or emotionally.

    God is love and his love does not change because of the decisions we make. His love never fails and it never gives up. For anyone to ever say that God loves someone any less for having an abortion is absolute reprehensible and goes against everything the bible says.

    For women who are violated against their will, God can heal them. He can use their stories to help educate others and help other women realize they are not alone.
    If a woman chooses to keep a child resulting from a rape, He can help her see that child with eyes of love instead of resentment.
    Regardless of whether or not a woman terminates a pregnancy, God loves her more than she will ever know or understand.


    If this message is one that you are not interested in hearing that is 100% okay. You have free will to believe whatever you want to believe. All I ask is that you remember that if you ever hear anything condemning said in conjunction with the name of God it is the result of a fallible person person misinterpreting His word.

    We are given the bible, an amazing roadmap to life, and we misinterpret it. We twist it for our use. We use it to condemn others. This is not the way this text was intended to be used. Its intention was to share the good news. That we are unconditionally loved and that through Jesus we can have a personal relationship with God.


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  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraceLikeRain View Post
    Appsolute. Here is my Christian perspective on Abortion.

    If Christians believe that life begins at conception it isn't fair to say that life doesn't begin at conception when the fertilized egg is disposed of in a laboratory.

    Abortion is terminating a life. Murder is a sin. So is lying, cheating, coveting others possession, lust, jealous, etc. Any Christian knows that the reason we need Jesus is that we are inherently sinful. Every day we make choices that go against the life we are called to live.

    For that reason I am morally pro-life and politically pro-choice. It is not my place to make this difficult decision for someone else.

    All sin is the same in the eyes of God and he is the ultimate judge. While I am here on earth it is not my place to judge the actions of others.

    If I don't want to see babies aborted then I feel like it is my duty, as a Christian, to help women have access to the resources they need.

    We need planned parenthood, sex education in our schools, access to contraceptives, better funding for our foster system, resources for single parents, better access to drug rehab programs, resources for low-income individuals with high-risk pregnancies, better and more affordable gene testing, affordable food to ensure adequate prenatal nutrition, affordable quality childcare, etc, etc, etc.

    How can we ask women to carry a child to term if we are not providing all of the resources they need to have a planned pregnancy and a viable way to care for that child once it is born?

    On the topic of Rape:

    We were given free will. Sometimes people use that free will to commit horrendous crimes against other people. God makes all things work together for our good HOWEVER he does not make a rape happen. A sick person commits a rape. To say that it was God's will for that act of violence to occur is absolute garbage. He never wants to see us hurt physically or emotionally.

    God is love and his love does not change because of the decisions we make. His love never fails and it never gives up. For anyone to ever say that God loves someone any less for having an abortion is absolute reprehensible and goes against everything the bible says.

    For women who are violated against their will, God can heal them. He can use their stories to help educate others and help other women realize they are not alone.
    If a woman chooses to keep a child resulting from a rape, He can help her see that child with eyes of love instead of resentment.
    Regardless of whether or not a woman terminates a pregnancy, God loves her more than she will ever know or understand.


    If this message is one that you are not interested in hearing that is 100% okay. You have free will to believe whatever you want to believe. All I ask is that you remember that if you ever hear anything condemning said in conjunction with the name of God it is the result of a fallible person person misinterpreting His word.

    We are given the bible, an amazing roadmap to life, and we misinterpret it. We twist it for our use. We use it to condemn others. This is not the way this text was intended to be used. Its intention was to share the good news. That we are unconditionally loved and that through Jesus we can have a personal relationship with God.
    That was an amazing post. I have wondered how to describe my feelings towards it and you have nailed it-morally pro life, but politically pro choice. I feel that abortion is killing, but that is between a woman and God, not her, HIM, me, and Joe Schmoe. She is the one that has to make that decision and live with it, and stand before God. The wonderful thing about God, though, is that He is a loving God, and He forgives us and loves us and knows that we are not perfect-and loves us anyway. A child is a gift, and I can't see killing a child. I look at babies, and see the miracle that they are, regardless of their circumstances. I am not naive. I know that they are a lot of work. I had my first at 17, was married, and had a great support system, and it was still hard. My OB looked at me at the first appointment, and asked when he was to schedule an abortion. I was just dumbstruck. That baby was wanted.I was married. My dh had a good job. We had our own place. I was still in school, with no plans to leave. My folks were NOT pleased, but my mother, God love her, stood up and looked at him and said-that is her decision to make, and she has decided to keep the baby. He ARGUED with her, and told me I was doing a stupid thing, I ought to just get rid of it and go on. I swear the room temp dropped 40 degrees. My mother thanked him for his opinion, and we left, never to return. To me, that is worse than telling a woman that she ought to let her child live.

    I also went with my best friend to a clinic for her to abort her 2nd child, in her 20's. It was not my choice, and I didn't approve, but it was not my call. She was my best friend, and in a bad spot, and asked me to love her and support her. She walked in with every intention of ending it, had it all rationalized, thought out in a methodical pro/con manner. They did an ultrasound and discovered that she was further than she thought. She heard the heartbeat and saw the baby flip about. She got dressed and left, and cried all the way home, and prayed for forgiveness for what she had wanted to do. That child is now 22 and just had her 1st child this spring.


    Personally, the only times I would be less opposed to abortion would be if the child was to be so profoundly disabled that it would basically be a vegetable with no hope of recovery, incest (because of the physical problems that this can cause), rape (and I will be slammed for this, but think of it like we do with horses-the sire has some extremely bad traits that should not be passed on whether nature or nurture who knows, but bad juju anyway you look at it), health of the mother, or if the mother was extremely young (say under 15) where it would become a serious detriment to her health-physical and mental.
    That being said-no one but the parents should be allowed to say yay or nay., regardless. If the father is adamant that he wants the mother to carry the child to term, then have custody papers drawn up and ready to go so he has the responsibility for that child and the mother does not have to keep it or kill it.


    If adoption was something that could be worked out, it would be best in many cases. There are many families out there that would love children and the adoption process has become such a nightmare that the children linger in less than great circumstances and potential parents are left hanging. I wonder if that process was less onerous, if it would have a positive effect on the abortion rates?
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown



  18. #378
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    GraceLikeRain,
    you sound like a shining example of a Christian. Honestly. It's really rare in my experience, to hear someone provide a Christian prospective that is so accepting and non-judgmental. Thumbs up to you.
    Jigga:
    Why must you chastise my brilliant idea with facts and logic? **picks up toys (and wine) and goes home**


    7 members found this post helpful.

  19. #379
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    I am not religious at all. One of my students gave me a book on the life of Jesus, and I had to read it, of course. (Great kid.) All I can say is, Jesus was all about helping those in need, doing good for other people, and being non-judgmental. I didn't find anything where he was all about telling people what they should do. It would seem those who truly believe in Christianity and Jesus would be like GraceLikeRain.


    7 members found this post helpful.

  20. #380
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    GraceLikeRain, that was a GOOD post. I am an atheist myself, but I am NOT uneducated about Christianity and admire the ideals (NOT the way it's usually professed these days). You actually get what it's about, FOR REAL. You have my respect.


    6 members found this post helpful.

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