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  1. #181
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    Very much on subject.

    think there was a song about that "I'm No Senator's Son", it happened all the time, politicians would vote for keeping Vietnam going and they would excuse their own sons from fighting
    This ^.


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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    What I remember back in the 1960's and early 70's is that the wealthy got out of combat and service and the poor, me and my neighborhood got drafted and saw combat. I think there was a song about that "I'm No Senator's Son", it happened all the time, politicians would vote for keeping Vietnam going and they would excuse their own sons from fighting.
    That was Creedence Clearwater Revival's "Fortunate Son":

    Some folks are born to wave the flag,
    Ooh, they're red, white and blue.
    And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
    Ooh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,

    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no senator's son, son.
    It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no,
    Yeah!

    Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
    Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
    But when the taxman comes to the door,
    Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes,

    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no.
    It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no.

    Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
    Ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
    And when you ask them, "How much should we give?"
    Ooh, they only answer More! more! more! yoh,

    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no military son, son.
    It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, one.
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
    It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,


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  3. #183
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    People do realise that the UK government is the British equivalent of the US republicans - right? The US media seems to talk about the UK as if it's some sort of semi-communist state.

    However as the UK is far less of a religious country we don't have quite the same influence of any God in policy making. If someone in the UK started quoting something from the bible when lawmaking I think people would just look at them as if they were crazy (i.e. when Santorum was saying that he couldn't pass any law that wasn't in line with God's law - Sharia anyone?)


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  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daydream Believer View Post
    I served with a number of Mormons in the Army. Good people all of them and they truly live their beliefs...not just give face value to it. I used to take Christmas dinner with some Mormon friends and never found them much different than any other Christians I know. Going on a mission is something all their young people are encouraged to do. They have free choice just like anyone else does and some choose to serve.

    I also agree that voting for the economy is voting for human rights. You can't help the poor if your economy collapses and if things get bad enough, people will be fighting to survive...for food and shelter...not fighting over health care or abortions. If folks think things are bad now, just picture this country if we have a financial collapse, fuel prices skyrocket to 10/gallon, and taxes increase yet more further sinking those who work...people will starve just as they did in the Great Depression. That is not fear mongering. Our nation is buried in the deepest debt also now than ever before, debt that Obama vowed to reduce but instead increased more than any other President and he did that in 4 years. That debt is going to sink us eventually if the present course continues. I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could want to let things go on as they have for four years if you simply look at the big picture.
    Absolutely untrue. He inherited the Iraq war debt that Bush never claimed. Here you go. http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

    And http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012...drunken-sailor

    We report you decide my ass.


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  5. #185
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    I'm no religious zealot...but recall, "way back then" people fled religious persecution in Europe as well as seeking a new way of life to reject serfdom. And most of all to create country that lived by the "rule of law" that would be applied equally -- whether born in to wealth or born into poverty.

    It is the "rule of law" that makes America so unique. When Constitutionally-written laws are bent or changed due to political influence...we get into murky waters.

    Our founding was an incredible, never-done-before proposition. It's all in writing if one takes the time to really study the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. And also the dialogue and private letters between our country's founder who often disagreed how to "set up" this new land.

    Our forebears and what their intention was is worth reading today -- probably more than ever as people have gotten lazy and/or it's not taught in schools much anymore.

    These people were brilliant as are their words so painstakingly put down in our Constitution.

    Everything they tried to set up for us (future generations who would inherit the America they founded) is pertinent today, more than ever since our founding.

    We are in a really big "test" right now. Read and study the documents (not the TV news). Then decide.



  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Absolutely untrue. He inherited the Iraq war debt that Bush never claimed. Here you go. http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickunga...-barack-obama/

    And http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012...drunken-sailor

    We report you decide my ass.
    Obama added more to the US deficit/debt than any other president in the history of the US.

    US Debt when Obama entered Whitehouse - $10 trillion
    US Debt when Obama exits Whitehouse Jan 1 2013 - $16 Trillion

    Obamas DEFICIT by year

    2009 1.413 Trillion
    2010 1.294 Trillion
    2011 1.299 Trillion
    2012 1.100 Trillion. (so far)



  7. #187
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    Once again for those not understanding:

    Bush NEVER accounted for his wars in the deficit calculations during his presidency !

    You are comparing apples to oranges.


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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kate66 View Post
    OK, I'll bite. I am British. Tell me specifically what you think the NHS does to kill people............ oh, while bearing in mind that the US ranks 37th in the world for healthcare, behind every developed country in the world, while spending more than double per capita... oh, and having one of the highest mortality rates for under 5s....... all while the UK and Canada rank way, way above. This comes from independent, non-political research. So tired of the soundbites of people listening to US media, on both sides, instead of looking for the facts.

    Now - tell me what the NHS is going to do to kill people.

    (Oh, and at the same time tell me how my poor 82 year old mum, who fell down a flight of stairs, bashed her head still managed to get CT scans, a week in ICU following her brain bleed, a 3 hour ambulance ride and now home care on a permanent basis - for $0, under the NHS. Damnit - shouldn't that damn NHS Socialist medical system have just left her to die?)

    Oh - and just while you are obviously going to quote the UK laws to support your opinion - right? My sister is also a UK doctor, who certainly isn't living on the breadline, works part time, has 2 kids and lives well - so it's not like the doctors are all poor as church mice, like they seem to think they would be in the US.
    My niece is a doctor in London. She grew up there, went to school there and practices there. I have first hand experience on the treatment and values of an elderly family member. It doesn't have to be an expensive treatment for the NHS to be corrupted by saving money on elderly patients.

    The good thing about the NHS is that you can bypass it and get your own medical insurance and treatment which was originally prohibited in an early version of Obamacare.

    I know your system and know that it is terrible. I have researched medical care to see why an ordinary course of treatment was not followed for my elderly realative and was simply shocked at what I found on the medical journal sites. It is disgraceful.

    No. I'm not going to go into those sites and prove anythng to you. You live there and have every reason to know how the system works yet you defend it.

    I will leave you with a reacent article that happened to come through my twitter account.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...medium=twitter



  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Obama added more to the US deficit/debt than any other president in the history of the US.

    US Debt when Obama entered Whitehouse - $10 trillion
    US Debt when Obama exits Whitehouse Jan 1 2013 - $16 Trillion

    Obamas DEFICIT by year

    2009 1.413 Trillion
    2010 1.294 Trillion
    2011 1.299 Trillion
    2012 1.100 Trillion. (so far)
    Did you even read the links? I really thought anybody who has been paying attention would have known this tidbit by now.


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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Once again for those not understanding:

    Bush NEVER accounted for his wars in the deficit calculations during his presidency !

    You are comparing apples to oranges.
    Not to mention Bush's stimulus package.


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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Once again for those not understanding:

    Bush NEVER accounted for his wars in the deficit calculations during his presidency !

    You are comparing apples to oranges.
    Lets see if people can understand the difference between deficits and debt:

    Deficit = the amount by which current year spending exceeds current year income.

    Debt = the totality of all annual deficits to date.

    So you see, no matter how you want to spin it, Obama has managed to increase by more than 50% the US debt from the time he entered the White House, until he leaves.

    $10 trillion dollars to $16 trillion dollars.



  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Did you even read the links? I really thought anybody who has been paying attention would have known this tidbit by now.
    Those links were not talking about the TOTAL US debt, only the spending by year and the % increase. Total nonsense.



  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyon View Post
    Very much on subject.
    qoote - think there was a song about that "I'm No Senator's Son", it happened all the time, politicians would vote for keeping Vietnam going and they would excuse their own sons from fighting


    This ^.
    Yes - CCR anti-corruption song, I know it well.

    Again staying on subject of the two individuals running for office. Do you have proof that Romney's father kept him out the service? I don't have proof one way or the other. As stated before, if the military guys don't get up in arms about it, why should I?

    If this is really a sticking point for you, then I know you voted for John McCain in 2008. He is the son and grandson of Naval Admirals, he graduated from Anapolis (just barely), was a Navy Pilot shot down over North Vietnam and spent years in prison. The injuries he received in the crash were never treated, in fact the beatings made the injuries worse. He was treated in some ways better than the other prisoners once they discovered his identity. So you know how badly the others were treated. He was offered a chance to go home, he knew it was political and said no. And the beatings continued.
    He made his peace with the Vietnam people and conflict - even authoring or co-authoring legislation for trade/treaties with Vietnam.
    He is the man you are discribing, but you didn't vote for him.
    Instead you voted for the Democrat guy because, well he is a Democrat. Just like some people vote for the Republican guy because he is a Republican.
    Your problem with Romney isn't his lack of military service or really anything else. You have one and only one problem with Romney - he is a Republican.
    "Never do anything that you have to explain twice to the paramedics."
    Courtesy my cousin Tim


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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Lets see if people can understand the difference between deficits and debt:

    Deficit = the amount by which current year spending exceeds current year income.

    Debt = the totality of all annual deficits to date.

    So you see, no matter how you want to spin it, Obama has managed to increase by more than 50% the US debt from the time he entered the White House, until he leaves.

    $10 trillion dollars to $16 trillion dollars.
    Again, apples and oranges. Good lord, Bush had a surplus when he came in and never accounted for his wars ! You CANNOT compare the two=APPLES AND ORANGES. But hey keep on babbling about about Obama and what a big spender he is you and Coyoteco can tell us all how Romney/Ryan tax plan works. Delusions are free....


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  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by stolen virtue View Post
    Again, apples and oranges. Good lord, Bush had a surplus when he came in and never accounted for his wars ! You CANNOT compare the two=APPLES AND ORANGES. But hey keep on babbling about about Obama and what a big spender he is you and Coyoteco can tell us all how Romney/Ryan tax plan works. Delusions are free....
    Le sigh, lessons in US Finance 101:


    The US DEBT when GB took office was approx $6 trillion. That means the US OWED that money to others, whether it was in the form of bonds ,treasuries, etc.

    GB certainly had a current year SURPLUS in spending for the years 2000 and 2001(surplus is the excess of income over spending, remember deficit? well the opposite of deficit is surplus)

    GB had current year deficit spending for the years 2002 through 2008. Over the 8 YEARS he was Prez GB added about 2 trillion to the 6 trillion mentioned earlier.

    Adding interest to that roughly $8 trillion , we get about $10 trillion coming into the Obama years.

    Obama had a current year deficit ( I will repeat it in detail here for you so you may understand) which added another 6 trillion to the US DEBT including that pesky interest.

    2009 1.413 Trillion
    2010 1.294 Trillion
    2011 1.299 Trillion
    2012 1.100 Trillion


    So that at the end of Obamas administration we will OWE TO OTHERS $16 trillion dollars.



  16. #196
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    Let me add some perspective for you:

    The US Gross Domestic Product for 2011 was roughly $15 Trillion dollars.

    Not enough to cover the total US Debt obligation, sad, so sad.



  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noms View Post
    Those links were not talking about the TOTAL US debt, only the spending by year and the % increase. Total nonsense.
    Yep total nonsense. So what ARE you talking about debt or deficit? Make up your mind. My original post on the subject wasn't even directed towards you in the first place.


    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...ficit_full.png
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ubled-deficit/


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  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Not to mention Bush's stimulus package.
    BTW the massive almost 1 trillion stimulus was Obamas, happened in 2009, signed by Obama. go look it up.



  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunridge1 View Post
    Yep total nonsense. So what ARE you talking about debt or deficit? Make up your mind. My original post on the subject wasn't even directed towards you in the first place.


    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/...ficit_full.png
    http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ubled-deficit/
    Why do you Obama supporters have such a hard time understanding that he has added over $6 trillion to the US DEBT by 4 years of annual DEFICITS?? Two concepts that are interrelated.



  20. #200
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    It's really really easy to send someone else's children when you know your own are safe.
    If you've served you also have a clue what it's actually like.
    To my knowledge BO was too young at the time. Mitt went on a mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by JER View Post
    Why is there a need to define or quantify a candidate's patriotism based on the degree of that individual's indiscriminate and unwavering militarism?

    You can support/love your country even if you are opposed to any and/or all of its wars. You can express your patriotism by opposing your country's policies and/or actions.

    The idea that we all have to march in lockstep and support the wars is fascist, not democratic.


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