[HungarianHippo]

I suspect you have no clue how devastated the area is and how difficult it might be to get gas trucks in there. I understand that yesterday, FEMA flew tankers into the air force bases in NY and NJ...but the airports had to be cleared of debris first.

There's gas in the tanks at the refineries but no power to pump it out. The same at many gas stations.

THIS. Though my folks and their neighbors have found that one "benefit" of having entire marinas worth of large boats strewn around their yards and roads is that most had a lot of gas in their tanks. They're all siphoning from the boats b/c it's the only way to keep generators running.

[Natalie]

Anecdotal, of course, but I've got US friends with German relatives who use the German healthcare system whenever they can. Why? Because even with their federal health care insurance from being federal employees (supposed to the most generous there is), their out of pocket payments in the German system even without insurance are less than 1/4 of their co-pay for the same thing here.

Before you slam "socialized medicine", you ought to investigate how health care works in all the other developed countries in the world. Don't just parrot what you've been told.

Anecdotal, sure, but I lived in Germany as a child (and my parents still keep in touch with many good friends there) and the experience was the same. If anything their system far outstrips ours in terms of the services offered AT NO COST. Even my Republican-leaning pre-baby boomer generation Dad admits that after living in Germany for over a decade, he's gotta hand it to them for having a health care system that works far better than anything we have.

[FineAlready]

But if the States kept that money in their coffers then they could best decide what are the highest priorities instead of waiting for the feds to inspect and decide therefore cuttting out the "middle men" so to speak who are drawing saleries for this govt job from somewhere right?

I don't disagree that State govts are always run any better but "too many cooks spoil the soup" so to speak. And in these type of dire situations most people want as little hassle and quick results to try to get back to normal ASAP. I'm not saying that FEMA needs to go but I do think in some cases that a more "slimeline" process would benefit everyone. For example the mayor in one of the NJ towns is pleading for gas to keep generators going and crews working now why is she having to wait for this-is it because FEMA is holding up the process in deciding for everyone what they think should be high priorities?

Right...and who better to rebuild a decimated city and rescue disaster vicitims than the individuals whose homes, workplaces, life's possessions, and sometimes bodies were just washed out to sea? That's extremely impractical, to say the least. It's like expecting someone to do surgery on themself when their arms were just chopped off. You can't expect the people IN the area that was just wiped out to rescue THEMSELVES. What you CAN do is expect everyone to pay into a federal fund for disaster relief, which can then be used to help the people who need it...which could be any one of us, someday.

What about telling New York City or New Jersey to rescue themselves would be useful here? I'm sure we'd get the NYSE up and running reaaaalllly quickly in that scenario too...

[Bluey]

Anecdotal, sure, but I lived in Germany as a child (and my parents still keep in touch with many good friends there) and the experience was the same. If anything their system far outstrips ours in terms of the services offered AT NO COST. Even my Republican-leaning pre-baby boomer generation Dad admits that after living in Germany for over a decade, he's gotta hand it to them for having a health care system that works far better than anything we have.

Cause and effect, don't forget to look for the right relationship to those when assessing a situation.

As I explained already, with excellent management, you can make ANY system work fine.
Looks like it is in Germany, not so sure it is in other places with socialized medicine, just as there are problems in places with private run health systems with governments bringing up the basic care for those that are not accessing private care already.

What is the common denominator here, if a system is working or not?
That it be well managed.
That was my point.

We will see where we go now forward in the USA with the changes that are being brought forth.

[Bluey]

Right...and who better to rebuild a decimated city and rescue disaster vicitims than the individuals whose homes, workplaces, life's possessions, and sometimes bodies were just washed out to sea? That's extremely impractical, to say the least. It's like expecting someone to do surgery on themself when their arms were just chopped off. You can't expect the people IN the area that was just wiped out to rescue THEMSELVES. What you CAN do is expect everyone to pay into a federal fund for disaster relief, which can then be used to help the people who need it...which could be any one of us, someday.

What about telling New York City or New Jersey to rescue themselves would be useful here? I'm sure we'd get the NYSE up and running reaaaalllly quickly in that scenario too...

Don't forget what happened not so long ago in Japan.

[Catsdorule-sigh]

http://www.gregpalast.com/advisory-u...ing/#more-7238

Unions, Good Government Groups to File Ethics Complaint Against Romney For Failing To Disclose His Big Auto Rescue Profit

Groups Urge Office of Government Ethics to Make Romney Disclose or Divest

........

"“The American people have a right to know about Gov. Romney’s potential conflicts of interest, such as the profits his family made from the auto rescue,” said UAW President Bob King. “It’s time for Gov. Romney to disclose or divest.”"

.......

"“While Romney was opposing the rescue of one of the nation’s most important manufacturing sectors, he was building his fortunes with his Delphi investor group, making his fortunes off the misfortunes of others,” King added."


Other bits not noted in this article: Jobs were eliminated and sent overseas.

FYI, Palast can be just as hard on the left. We really need to get them all out of office and start over- beginning with election laws designed to eliminate competition from anyone besides the "chosen" candidates.

Also, make all voting by paper ballot, hand counted and audited, audited, audited.

[Noms]

http://www.gregpalast.com/advisory-u...ing/#more-7238

Unions, Good Government Groups to File Ethics Complaint Against Romney For Failing To Disclose His Big Auto Rescue Profit

Groups Urge Office of Government Ethics to Make Romney Disclose or Divest

........

"“The American people have a right to know about Gov. Romney’s potential conflicts of interest, such as the profits his family made from the auto rescue,” said UAW President Bob King. “It’s time for Gov. Romney to disclose or divest.”"

.......

"“While Romney was opposing the rescue of one of the nation’s most important manufacturing sectors, he was building his fortunes with his Delphi investor group, making his fortunes off the misfortunes of others,” King added."


Other bits not noted in this article: Jobs were eliminated and sent overseas.

FYI, Palast can be just as hard on the left. We really need to get them all out of office and start over- beginning with election laws designed to eliminate competition from anyone besides the "chosen" candidates.

Also, make all voting by paper ballot, hand counted and audited, audited, audited.

I had to pick myself up off the floor from laughing over this post.

A copy/paste taken from Greg Palast website. Brilliant.

What do you not understand about the GM bailout.

PRESIDENT OBAMA took GM through bankruptcy, but not a normal Ch 11 reorg bankrupcy, he used taxpayer money via TARP to the tune of $50 billion which has not been repaid to date.

Now one would ask why would the prez spent $50 billion in TARP money on a company that is only worth $34 billion on paper???


Can you say the UAW is in the pocket of this President??

The UAW in the form or organized labor is mostly to blame for the utter failure of GM to begin with.

[sunny59]

Ask countries with socialized care how their care works?
They have bare bones health care.
As here, in an emergency, all is well, for everyday health care, there are shortages and waits, sometimes even for important health needs that should be attended now, but are not..

Well, since most of my extended family and some of my immediate family do live in Europe and Canada, I have heard their responses. They think we are nuts! It's a no brainer for them. They think their health care is much better than ours.

And as for using the emergency rooms, that is ridiculous. In the case I mentioned the total bill was well over 100K and could have been under 1K if there was a way for earlier intervention. That is not acceptable to me. This incident is hardly a one off thing either..... wash rinse repeat and you have incredible waste.

Yes waste and high costs have other causes, but this is a simple one to address.....

[meupatdoes]

I had to pick myself up off the floor from laughing over this post.

A copy/paste taken from Greg Palast website. Brilliant.

What do you not understand about the GM bailout.

PRESIDENT OBAMA took GM through bankruptcy, but not a normal Ch 11 reorg bankrupcy, he used taxpayer money via TARP to the tune of $50 billion which has not been repaid to date.

Now one would ask why would the prez spent $50 billion in TARP money on a company that is only worth $34 billion on paper???


Can you say the UAW is in the pocket of this President??

The UAW in the form or organized labor is mostly to blame for the utter failure of GM to begin with.

Noms, TARP was enacted by the Bush administration.

The government bailout of banks and other institutions was signed into law by Bush.

Trufax.

[vineyridge]

Bluey, I can promise you the Germans do not have bare bones health care. From the Canadians who post here, they don't either.

Emergency rooms are outrageously expensive, in part because those can pay are having to subsidize those who can't.

[Noms]

Noms, TARP was enacted by the Bush administration.

The government bailout of banks and other institutions was signed into law by Bush.

Trufax.

Meu, It was OBAMA who directed $50 billion of the TARP to go directly to GM in the bankruptcy procedings. Sorry, cant blame this one on Bush.

ETA, the banks who received TARP money have all paid back their loans, why? Well because the banks DID NOT want the TARP money to begin with, they were forced to take TARP money in response to the Lehman Ch 7 bankruptcy........

[FineAlready]

Sigh. It's hardly worth getting into this, but President Obama didn't "take GM through bankruptcy." GM filed a voluntary petition. GM "took GM through bankruptcy."

Also, as I have mentioned previously, labor unions have a lot of leverage in bankruptcy cases. They are not the same as other contract counterparties, and their collective bargaining agreements cannot be rejected as easily as other contracts. Take a look at 11 U.S.C. s. 1113. Additionally, the rejection of any contract results in contract rejection damage claims, which can create HUGE unsecured claims against the debtor's estate, thereby diluting the recovery to all unsecured creditors. GM was going to need to deal with the labor unions no matter what if they wanted to reorganize.

[Noms]

Sigh. It's hardly worth getting into this, but President Obama didn't "take GM through bankruptcy." GM filed a voluntary petition. GM "took GM through bankruptcy."

Also, as I have mentioned previously, labor unions have a lot of leverage in bankruptcy cases. They are not the same as other contract counterparties, and their collective bargaining agreements cannot be rejected as easily as other contracts. Take a look at 11 U.S.C. s. 1113. Additionally, the rejection of any contract results in contract rejection damage claims, which can create HUGE unsecured claims against the debtor's estate, thereby diluting the recovery to all unsecured creditors. GM was going to need to deal with the labor unions no matter what if they wanted to reorganize.

It is pointless to argue about GMs bankruptcy, however, the Obama administration averted a Ch 7 involuntary liquidation bankruptcy by pledging TARP money to GM, so to argue semantics ......

[Fred]

Still can't believe any educated rational thinking woman would vote Republican in this election. I think when Obama wins this time he can finally focus all his energy & resources on issues instead of having to be in constant defense mode against brutal stupid attacks from the right. And then the Reps can stop focusing so much energy on making him look bad & start doing their real jobs in Congress.

I score centrist on most surveys but no way in hell I'd vote Republican this election, these men seriously scare me, and I wouldn't want to live in a country led by them, as a woman.

Amen from me too.

[Fred]

It is very simple for me, I will not have the government in my bedroom or my reproductive system. It's that easy. I will not relinquish my personal rights for anything else. I will not agree to keep girls in poverty pregnant and then deny them any kind of aid.

I cannot comprehend the hypocrisy of those who claim to be "pro life" then condem children to a life of poverty by gutting social programs.

I agree 100%

As for Romney being a "good man". If you think a pathological liar, who will say and do anything to get elected is 'good' - you must have a very different value system.

And as for Bluey's comment about "asking someone from Canada about their healthcare system" and calling it "bare bones"....
I know for a fact Bluey that you have taken part in all the health care threads on off topic days, and every.single.time - Canadians (me included) have come on and told you all how glad we are to have the health care system we have.
Pages and pages of it. Case by case scenarios.
I am grateful every single day of my life for the health care system we have.
and it is NOT 'bare bones'.
We are tired of telling you because you don't want to listen, because it does not FIT the view you already have.

I am so disheartened over the US election - I cannot believe the hatred and lies that are spewed towards President Obama.
HE has not 'polarized' people - the whole rest of the world admires and respects him - but there is a whole group of people in your country bound and determined to try to make him fail.

He has achieved so much in the face of constant obstruction. I can only imagine how well he would have done with a little cooperation.

such a shame.

[dilligaff2]

T
Ask countries with socialized care how their care works?
They have bare bones health care.
As here, in an emergency, all is well, for everyday health care, there are shortages and waits, sometimes even for important health needs that should be attended now, but are not.
As here, they can always go when in a crisis to their ER, but like here, that is also were many end up, because of their bare bones basic care.

Sorry, I live in a country with socialized health care. It is not 'Bare Bones'. My Father in law just this week got out of hospital for pneumonia. Treatment, drugs, prescriptions, respiratory therapy, follow up visits from the Home Health nurses, more IV antibiotics and followup visits to his primary physician and it all cost him NOTHING. Son-in-law had an heart infection at 26. Hospital, treatment, Diagnositcs-- still cost him nothing. Heck, I lost my mother to Cancer this year and after all of the chemo, radiation, MRI's, Cat Scans and hospital stays the family was left with Zero debt.

I just donated to a friend in the US who was going to go 10s of thousands of dollars into debt because she had an accident and broke her arm requiring surgery. That is whacked.

[Noms]

I am so disheartened over the US election - I cannot believe the hatred and lies that are spewed towards President Obama.
HE has not 'polarized' people - the whole rest of the world admires and respects him - but there is a whole group of people in your country bound and determined to try to make him fail.

Shame on you.

No Fred, Obama has failed all by himself.

[rmh_rider]

Those of you who are "into" lots more gvt have a read of this:

http://www.waff.com/story/19936506/a...ister-payments

Been a year and a half since these hit.

Also

http://www.waff.com/story/19985728/n...-help-rejected

When our *entire* county, and the *entire* neighboring county were out of electricity due to the tornado's for 5 days, I don't think anybody CARED if the welcomed line workers were union members or not.

[fish]

No Fred, Obama has failed all by himself.

Yeah, sure. Guess that's why "the whole rest of the world admires and respects him." Sets him apart from the failures I've known.

[caffeinated]

Also

http://www.waff.com/story/19985728/n...-help-rejected

When our *entire* county, and the *entire* neighboring county were out of electricity due to the tornado's for 5 days, I don't think anybody CARED if the welcomed line workers were union members or not.

More details have come out since this story -essentially, it's not true.

http://blog.al.com/breaking/2012/11/...denies_cl.html



http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201..._non-unio.html

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...incart_m-rpt-2

Unfortunately this story has grown legs and nobody seems to be reading the retractions/clarifications.